View Full Version : 22: Left 4 Dead as a Card Game
Fengol
01-06-2009, 02:56 PM
Similar to munchkin, the players draw cards from a "encounter" deck containing zombies, items and events and resolve them using limited equipment and a lot of co-operation.
The major difference though is that instead of players taking turns to draw from the deck and resolving it; each player draws a face down card and then all the players resolve their cards simultaneously. Secondly, monsters can be kept to continue attacking in the next round, adding to the danger but allowing players to focus attacks. Finally, when the deck is finished, it's reshuffled into a Finale deck and the drawing rules alter slightly to oppress the players with zombies!
Version 1.0.7 Download (http://mailowl.co.za/Downloads/l4dcardrules.pdf) (l4dcardrules.pdf)
Cards page 1 (http://mailowl.co.za/Downloads/l4dcards.pdf) (l4dcards.pdf) [I'm busy making a hardcopy to hand in to the judges]
Aequitas
01-06-2009, 03:14 PM
Make it .... I want to play this.
Don't disappoint me.
Fengol
01-06-2009, 03:34 PM
At the start of the game each player has: 5 points of health, 1 health pack (taken from the campaign deck) and can deal 1 point of damage.
Card counts and descriptions (100 cards per deck):
30 Zombie - Deals 1 damage if ignored. Has 1 health
5 Hunter - Cannot be ignored by player. Has 1 health
5 Smoker - Deals 1 damage when flipped. Player must ignore. Deals 1 damage if ignored by all players. Has 1 health
5 Boomer - Deals 1 damage and all players must draw a card if ignored. Has 1 health
2 Tank - Deals 5 damage. Has health equal to players + 1
2 Witch - Deals 3 damage if any player engages a monster card. Has health equal to players - 1
8 Horde - Cannot be ignored, draw 2 cards
4 Car Alarm - Draw 2 cards if ignored
4 "There's ammo over here" - All players have +1 damage this round
2 Uzi - Player has +1 damage and keeps this card. Player can only have 1 gun
2 Assault Rifle - Player can engage any 2 monsters and keeps this card. Player can only have 1 gun
2 Sniper Rifle - Player has +2 damage and keeps this card. Player can only have 1 gun
2 Shotgun - Player can engage all his own monsters and keeps this card. Player can only have 1 gun
4 Pipe Bomb - Remove all zombies. Player can keep this card and must discard when used. Player can only have one pipe bomb or Molotov
4 Molotov - Discard the monsters drawn in the next Exploration phase. Player can keep this card and must discard when used. Player can only have 1 pipe bomb or Molotov
4 Pills - Heals 1 points of health. Player can keep this card and must discard when used
6 Health Pack - Heals 4 points of health. Player can keep this card and must discard when used
2 Mounted Turret - Remove all monster cards this round
3 Waiting for the lift - Each player draws a card
3 Fallen off the edge - Player can not engage this turn
dislekcia
01-06-2009, 05:01 PM
Wow. This is such a good idea!
Playtest time?
Fengol
01-06-2009, 06:00 PM
Friday, my house :D
Azimuth
01-06-2009, 06:20 PM
I must say, this does sound really, really similar to a board/card game called Zombies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombies!!!). In fact, I shouldn't be at all surprised if Valve's designers were influenced by this game.
Fengol
01-06-2009, 06:34 PM
@Azimuth, I think it's safe to say both L4D and Zombies!!! (which, for best effect requires you're drunk and simultaneously watching a B movie) took their stuff from the movies. And thanks for the reminder, I think I'll steal some ideas from there too.
dislekcia
01-06-2009, 06:50 PM
I must say, this does sound really, really similar to a board/card game called Zombies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombies!!!). In fact, I shouldn't be at all surprised if Valve's designers were influenced by this game.
Having played Zombies!!! (plus expansions) a ton, this game feels quite different in a couple of key areas: The way that players all draw at the same time and then work together to deal with whatever's popped up, as well as the way that cards that aren't dealt with (I assume) stay in play and bother the players. So someone who's just drawn a zombie while someone else got a tank is definitely going to take 1 damage this turn until he (or someone else) can deal with the zombie that's in front of him.
Zombies!!! is all very "screw your neighbour", so I'd say cross it with Arkham and L4D and we're sold :)
BTW: Fengol, any chance of putting in different types of weapons? Like the assault rifle lets you attack 2 zombies a turn, if that's what you decide to do?
Also, it might make sense to have a phase-based game: Card Draw, Turn, Player response and Final, which loops. So a zombie card might do nothing until Final, when it will damage the player that drew it. That way someone can deal damage to it during the Response phase and it's not "ignored". But a Horde might say "Turn: Draw 2 cards", so those cards automatically come into play during the Turn phase, before the players can Respond.
If your playtesting is getting too predictable, it might be a good idea to add in dice for a bit of random, but I'm not too huge a fan of that idea right now, I say keeping it simple is probably the way to go.
Also, it might make sense to give players a "defensive" option of a melee attack, which doesn't kill zombies, but stops a player from taking damage from any zombies except a tank this turn. That way they haven't dealt with anything specifically (which lets the zombies build up for another turn, mwahaha) but they could get out of some dodgy situations/hordes a little easier.
Bonezmann
01-06-2009, 07:15 PM
This game sounds like fun, even though I never played L4D before. :D
Fengol
01-06-2009, 07:23 PM
BTW: Fengol, any chance of putting in different types of weapons? Like the assault rifle lets you attack 2 zombies a turn, if that's what you decide to do?
Definitely, I want to expand the Weapons card into more variety and I want lower the number of Pipe Bombs to have Molotovs.
FuzzYspo0N
01-06-2009, 07:26 PM
good idea fengol, im a huge fan of l4d, a card game would be pure win
Aequitas
01-06-2009, 08:14 PM
Can I just say that this is an awesome idea ... and I want to play it.
I love the different weapons.
Think you should come up with a gameplay sequence, like what Dis suggested.
dislekcia
01-06-2009, 08:15 PM
What about a "Reloading!" card that stops a player from attacking this round?
Molotov: Burns 3 zombies each round for 2 rounds. (Or places a fire token on each zombie and special in play, all zombies with a fire token at end of round take 1 damage)
Watch your fire!: Player has to attack a friendly player this round. (Aeq suggested something better: This card stays in play until the player it targets damages a zombie targeting someone else, at which point he deals equal damage to the zombie's target as well and the card is discarded)
Fengol
02-06-2009, 07:01 AM
I see the Molotov as a preventative card, meaning the next round no new monsters come into play. I will expand the description to include all players.
I already have a "Reloading" type card with the Car Alarm. I'd like to keep the deck at a maximum of 100 cards but I'll include it, if the play testing suggests so.
The problem with "Watch your fire!" is that the game is about milling the deck has having all the encounters which means the players will be forced to damage one of their own. I have been wanting to incorporate it into the game though, along with "Fallen off the Edge" and "Trapped in the Closet" and I think I've come up with a mechanic.
When a player reaches 0 health points or below at the end of the Zombie phase (see first post) they draw from the "Last Stand" deck. The Last Stand deck is 4 cards face down that'll set the player at 3 health points however these are at a cost to the other players. There are only a few cards so each player can go to 0 once or one player can have 0 a couple of times. When there are no more Last Stand cards to draw, the game is over.
Last Stand Cards:
Watch your fire! - Gain 2 health points. Another player loses 2 health points
Seperated from the group - Draw the next campaign card. If it is a monster you die alone. If not gain 3 health points and return the campaign card and reshuffle the deck
Trapped in the closet - Gain 3 health points. Remove all your items
Caught under the car - Gain 1 health points
FuzzYspo0N
02-06-2009, 10:25 AM
Thats a cool way to put it, Fengol. I dont know if i missed it but is there a "horde" card?
Fengol
02-06-2009, 10:43 AM
@FuzzYspo0N, yip! Cannot be ignored, draw 2 cards
Annihilatorza
02-06-2009, 11:31 AM
Sounds awesome !
Going to Be alot of fun, cant wait for this weekend.
I have my own idea I have flesh out some of the Idea's for it before I can say anything.
Could be alot of fun but it's something I have to work on first.
Fengol
02-06-2009, 12:18 PM
Please don't laugh. I wish I could draw and I've been practicing a little. Here's some artwork for the cards
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/zombie.jpg
Zombie
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/boomer.jpg
Boomer
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/stalker.jpg
Stalker
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/tank.jpg
Tank
dislekcia
02-06-2009, 01:05 PM
Wow Fengol. That Last Stand dynamic is really well thought out. I like it! The only thing I'd change there is to put in more cards (still only 4 types, but have 12 in total) so that there's more random and less player prediction.
FuzzYspo0N
02-06-2009, 02:14 PM
Please don't laugh.
I tried really hard. honest. But i wouldnt SAY that i did laugh. lol,
Looks cool none the less. It will feel more indie / original, plus when you have a more solid game going there might be some willing artists who would love to paint up some graphics.
Fengol
02-06-2009, 02:33 PM
I doubt Mike Krahulik will offer his style to my game. But, unfortunately, it's true and I suck, I have Ben Caldwell's books and I really need to dedicate a couple of hours a day to drawing. Like you said, it really gives and indie and original feel to any game.
dislekcia
02-06-2009, 04:04 PM
I doubt Mike Krahulik will offer his style to my game. But, unfortunately, it's true and I suck, I have Ben Caldwell's books and I really need to dedicate a couple of hours a day to drawing. Like you said, it really gives and indie and original feel to any game.
Ah, but if the game is rad enough and you poke Valve with it, maybe they'll hire Gabe to do the art for the bundled version with L4D2 ;)
Fengol
02-06-2009, 04:19 PM
I would be in unicorn pooing rainbow heaven
Fengol
04-06-2009, 08:29 AM
Here's a pic of me using a game maker toolkit
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/gamemaking.jpg
Fengol
04-06-2009, 09:15 AM
Just some quick stats:
There are 100 cards, with 4 players it means there are 25 rounds. There can be said to be: 38 good cards, 32 bad cards and 30 zombie cards. Each player has 5 points of health and there are 4 Last Stand cards to draw.
The game is meant to be tough, tomorrow's play test will determine if it's impossible.
I'm also worried that the mechanics are too simple. Simplicity is often better and you don't want that feeling of rules "tacted on" but I hope it's intriguing enough
dislekcia
04-06-2009, 12:23 PM
Here's a pic of me using a game maker toolkit
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/gamemaking.jpg
Just some quick stats:
There are 100 cards, with 4 players it means there are 25 rounds. There can be said to be: 38 good cards, 32 bad cards and 30 zombie cards. Each player has 5 points of health and there are 4 Last Stand cards to draw.
The game is meant to be tough, tomorrow's play test will determine if it's impossible.
I'm also worried that the mechanics are too simple. Simplicity is often better and you don't want that feeling of rules "tacted on" but I hope it's intriguing enough
!!! Looking forward to testing this tomorrow :)
Remember, we're going to need counters for player and special infected health. Jelly beans work, but run the risk of being eaten. In fact, I demand jelly beans. I want to eat health when I get hurt ;)
Fengol
04-06-2009, 01:11 PM
Done. But I know you D, you'll be diving in front of other players, taking zombie bites and witch claws to the face all so you can eat jelly beans... er... I mean... lose health! Then we have to use health packs which means MORE jelly beans and soon a tank will be drawn dealing jelly beans to everyone!
I'm lost now and going to sit in a corner and rock myself to sanity.
Jelly beans,
Jelly beans.
Jelly beans!
dislekcia
04-06-2009, 01:44 PM
Done. But I know you D, you'll be diving in front of other players, taking zombie bites and witch claws to the face all so you can eat jelly beans... er... I mean... lose health! Then we have to use health packs which means MORE jelly beans and soon a tank will be drawn dealing jelly beans to everyone!
I'm lost now and going to sit in a corner and rock myself to sanity.
Jelly beans,
Jelly beans.
Jelly beans!
\:D/
Squid
04-06-2009, 02:58 PM
Jelly beans,
Jelly beans.
Jelly beans!
I want jelly beans :<
Kensei
04-06-2009, 08:01 PM
So do I :(
Mail me some with my order of your L4D card game plzktnx
Nandrew
05-06-2009, 11:03 AM
Yeah, they'll be like those "feelies" of oldschool adventure games! \:D/
Fengol
05-06-2009, 11:15 AM
I haven't had time to put the rule descriptions on the cards, but the title and backing is done
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/completedeck.jpg
Play test tonight!
Fengol
08-06-2009, 10:43 AM
Play testing was intense and unfortuantely far from being the dangerous landscape I had invisioned, it was a cake walk (even if the players I had weren't l33t). So we spent some time figuring out how to make the game more dangerous, and thus, more exciting.
There are 4 main, big, new aspects to the game:
1) Difficulty setting. The game is made more difficult by drawing more cards during the Exploration phase. At the start of the game decide if you want to play on: Easy, Normal, Hard or Expert. On Easy each player draws a single card during the Exploration phase. On Normal, one player "has the difficulty" and draws an additional card during the Exploration phase. The difficulty rotates to the next player each round. On Hard "the difficulty" draws 2 cards and on Expert draw 3. The test group tried all the difficulty levels and found Hard to the be recommended level to play at.
2) Item pick up and use. Players can either pick up one item or trade one item a round. If there is more than one monster card in front of them, that player takes 1 damage because the player is surrounded by zombies when trying to get the pipebomb, health pack or other player.
3) Draw cards face down and flip effect. Some cards like Horde, Car Alarm and Boomer instruct the player to draw cards. In this case draw the cards immediately and keep them face down in front of the player. At the end of the next Exploration phase flip this cards face up. Players must still draw cards as normal in the Exploration phase so a player can have a lot of cards to flip come their next turn, especially at the higher difficulties. On flip is also a card event now, like tap and is when a card changes from face down to face up; the Smoker for example deals 1 damage now on Flip.
4) Finale. We figured out how to include this in the game. During the Exploration phase, if a player can't draw a card the Finale stars immediately. Shuffle the Discard pile into a new Encounters deck and draw 5 monster cards face up for each player, discarding items and events. Resolve the round as normal and at the end of the round, if there are still monsters in play each player draws another monster card from the Encounters deck (discarding items and events). Cards which instruct the player to draw more cards during the Finale are drawn face down as normal (like the Boomer)
I'll try and get a rulebook draft up
Gazza_N
08-06-2009, 10:51 AM
<_<
>_>
Need an extra playtester? Having never played L4D, it would also be a good test of its intuitiveness.
Fengol
08-06-2009, 11:06 AM
Actually, the next exercise for me is to give the cards and rules to a new group of players. Let them read the rules and try play on their own. This'll give an indication of how clear my rules are and if the actions make sense. So expect a call :)
dislekcia
08-06-2009, 12:44 PM
1) Difficulty setting. The game is made more difficult by drawing more cards during the Exploration phase. At the start of the game decide if you want to play on: Easy, Normal, Hard or Expert. On Easy each player draws a single card during the Exploration phase. On Normal, one player "has the difficulty" and draws an additional card during the Exploration phase. The difficulty rotates to the next player each round. On Hard "the difficulty" draws 2 extra cards and on Expert draw 3 extra. The test group tried all the difficulty levels and found Hard to the be recommended level to play at.
2) Item pick up and use. Players can either pick up one item or trade one item a round. If there is more than one monster card in front of them, that player takes 1 damage because the player is surrounded by zombies when trying to get to the pipebomb, health pack or other player.
3) Draw cards face down and flip effect. Some cards like Horde, Car Alarm and Boomer instruct the player to draw cards. In this case draw the cards immediately and keep them face down in front of the player. At the end of the next Exploration phase flip this cards face up. Players must still draw cards as normal in the Exploration phase so a player can have a lot of cards to flip come their next turn, especially at the higher difficulties. On flip is also a card event now, like tap and is when a card changes from face down to face up; the Smoker for example deals 1 damage now on Flip.
4) Finale. We figured out how to include this in the game. During the Exploration phase, if a player can't draw a card the Finale stars immediately. Shuffle the Discard pile into a new Encounters deck and draw monster cards face up for each player equal to their amount of health, discarding items and events. Resolve the round as normal and at the end of the round, if there are still monsters in play each player draws another monster card from the Encounters deck (discarding items and events). Cards which instruct the player to draw more cards during the Finale are drawn face down as normal (like the Boomer) the only time items and effects can occur in the finale is when this happens, so it might be desirable to have a few cards to flip each round.
I'll try and get a rulebook draft up
Just a couple of changes for clarity, as I understood them after the testing :)
Fengol
17-06-2009, 06:14 AM
update on the first post
Bonezmann
19-06-2009, 07:43 PM
I recommend you take a look at this (http://www.yugiohcardmaker.net/) if you want your cards to have the same design as yu-gi-oh or this (http://download.cnet.com/Card-Collector-Game-Maker/3000-2130_4-10405855.html) application for making your cards. I'm going to try it out now myself, it's for making games like these. ;)
Fengol
29-06-2009, 04:05 PM
A sample of the cards is available in a PDF on the first post. I would appricate any help with quotes or blurb to put on the cards as well as any cool screenshots you that could be used for card graphics.
The list of cards are on the third post (http://forums.tidemedia.co.za/nag/showpost.php?p=216861&postcount=3)
Fengol
01-07-2009, 09:07 AM
I'm going to have to ask for an extension. I've forgotten my USB stick at home which had all the cards and rules I was going to print for my submission. D, can I deliver my stuff to you by Friday?
Fengol
01-07-2009, 11:20 PM
Please find my final submission on the first post. It includes the latest rules and all the cards required for the game. Unfortunately I didn't get to finish writing up all the rules and one of cards are still missing a screenshot.
I'll definitely finish up the rules before sending this off to Value to see if they want it.
A special thank you to all the play testers who contributed to this game.
01DT!m3r
10-07-2009, 09:40 PM
I don't know if you have a backing for your cards yet , if you don't feel free to use this(something I whipped up from the box cover art).An awesome card game needs a cool looking back.:)
http://img269.imageshack.us/i/left4deadcoverpc.jpg/
http://img269.imageshack.us/i/left4deadcoverpc.jpg/
Fengol
13-07-2009, 10:14 AM
An important lesson to everyone. Postnet will print your color pages nicely and cheaply but DO NOT make the mistake and cut up the cards and then paste them on cardboard to cut out; it takes FOREVER.
I should have gotten some proper paste with a brush, pasted the whole page to the cardboard then cut it out once :(
Let this be a lesson to you all!
Almost A Hero
17-07-2009, 09:42 AM
Hey, man. Sounds like an awesome idea. I'd love to playtest it, but I think it would lose some of its momentum in IRC. XD
With regards to actually making the cards, you may be interested in this tutorial (http://cardfighterproject.com/tutorials.html) (I'm a total Neo Geo SNK vs Capcom Card Fighters geek).
Done right, you end up with some pretty professional-looking cards.
Fengol
17-07-2009, 10:44 AM
thanks, I wish I had this before I started. I'm about halfway now and it's just taking LOOOOOOONG
Cyberninja
17-07-2009, 11:41 AM
An important lesson to everyone. Postnet will print your color pages nicely and cheaply but DO NOT make the mistake and cut up the cards and then paste them on cardboard to cut out; it takes FOREVER.
I should have gotten some proper paste with a brush, pasted the whole page to the cardboard then cut it out once :(
Let this be a lesson to you all!
Sorry if this is a bit late. But wouldn't it have been easier to just get your cards/images printed, on both sides of the paper? Most printing companies offer this service and you can even choose the grade of paper (thin, thick, gloss..etc) you want to use.
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