View Full Version : Experienced Games Industry person coming to SA soon
Hello all you Saffer game nutters.. :o
I live in London and have been in the games industry for over 12 years now, but due to bad weather, bad food and even worse people I have decided to move to SA sometime within the next year with my wife who is bringing me home. We will probably end up in Joburg as that is where my wife is from so I want to start looking at whats out there and if maybe I could be of use to people.
As I say I have been in the insustry for quite a while now and have had jobs from Tester, to Account Manager to Producer and Designer and I have worked for companies such as Take 2, Sega and THQ Wireless and have seen games from initial concept all way to final production and securing shelf space.
I am obviously looking at what I could do or where I could fit in out there and seeing comments on this site it doesnt look like theres much work at the moment in the industry.
Sooo, if anyone has any questions or comments, suggestions about what I could do, please do get in contact and we can have a chat.
Hope to hear from someone soon,
Rabs ;o)
Miktar
22-08-2007, 12:28 PM
Hate to say it, but if you're looking for an actual job in Game Development here in SA, you either have to make it yourself or wait around until the industry here matures more - it is still very much in an infantile stage.
Luma Arcade may need people, I'm not sure, so you'll have to contact them directly and ask.
Hi Miktar,
Thanks for the response..
I kind of new that would be the case but I guess I am looking to help where I can. The games industry is something i know back to front and if my knowledge or contacts can be of use to help get things off the ground I will gladly do that.
I have many contacts at publishers and hardware manufactures and I know certification standards etc.. Plus I think my design and QA experience could really help some of you guys out just getting your games to a standard that I know will be expected by the big companies.
And yes I do want to work back in the industry.. Even if I went around consulting to help people get a game polished or just help you guys get to the point where you could hire me :o)..
Well its early days yet. So anyone else have any comments or questions please do let me know..
Cheers,
Rabs.
Miktar
22-08-2007, 12:47 PM
You probably will end up consulting - so good luck with that. I'm sure people will email/message you once they get around to reading the thread.
Yup its still early days yet.... Im not even 100% sure when I will be over.. I just know it should be by next August the very latest.. Maybe Febuary the earliset..
So all ideas and comments welcome.....
Tr00jg
22-08-2007, 01:34 PM
What are you currently doing in London? Have you been working only in London?
Flint
22-08-2007, 01:49 PM
Rabs, you have a PM.
Hi Tr00jg,
Currently I am working for a company called Ideaworks 3D as one of the Lead Testers. We make amazing 3D mobile games and its a great company.
Hutch
23-08-2007, 02:15 PM
Testers are the "never went to varsity" guys of game dev.
its the entry level position.
it will be a struggle
SA is going to be a nice shock for you. hehe, but yes, the food, weather and women are much better...
kurtkz
23-08-2007, 02:37 PM
Whoa...relax a bit there Hutch...no need to attack the man's qualifications :/ If he says he has 12 years of experience in the international game dev market then I for one would welcome him with open arms to the SA community. Welcome btw :)
Thanks kurtkz..
And yes you are quite right, I have been working as all sorts of things in the industry... I have been (at a publisher) a tester, lead tester, test manager, Producer, Game and Level Designer and a Third Party Account manager for Sega.. And in Development I have been a designer, associate producer and production assistant.. I have worked for hardware manufactures, publishers and developers and have a very good understanding of the whole industry and seen games from concept to all the way in the shops.
The reason, not that I need to justify myself that I am in testing again is because the company I am now working for I have been trying to get into for a few years as a Producer, now you have to realise the level of work in this company, they only take THE BEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.. and when I was out of work there wasnt much else around as a producer or designer, so I took a lead test position after being promised that I will only be in test for 6 months... But things have changed and theres still no producer or design positons here..
Plus you obviously have no idea what a good tester should be as the type of tester you are talking about, the ones who have just come out of varsity would never even be looked at by this company.. You would need at least 3 years industry experience just to get an interview here as a tester.. I sit with the programmers, designers and artists and give my input into the full game development.
So please know what you are talking about Hutch as you obviously have alot to learn about game develoopment.
The industry as most are is varied and complex so dont assume anything about anyone until you have asked.
By the way I also have varsity level qualifications in general engineering and electrical installations plus 3 years experience as a sound engineer and a year as a video editor for the BBC.
kurtkz
23-08-2007, 03:26 PM
Wow...those are quite extensive qualifications you have there Rabs. Colour me impressed :) Also, I took a look at your company's website. I must say, the games being developed there are impressive. Hope to hear good things when you finally come down to SA :)
dislekcia
23-08-2007, 03:59 PM
Hutch, that was uncalled for. I'd suggest reading the first post properly...
Yes, a lot of people get into the game development industry via testing. As a field it has a high turnover rate due to really difficult hours, immense workloads and fantastic amounts of stress. Professional and lead testers have a tough job. Plus Rabs has held a lot of different positions, that's how the game development scene appears to work in the UK: People moving around all the time.
Experience is nothing to be sneezed at. For one thing it helps prevent silly forum posts ;)
-D
And thank you Dislekcia...
Yes you are correct... The industry is and odd thing here... You also have to realise that its an industry that has just come out of being a cottage industry to one that rivals Hollywood (within 10 years) and is now one of the biggest growing industries in the world, but is still putting proper processes in place too cope with that, so we are constantly transitioning.
As well as the fact that there are many more people wanting to get into the industry than there are jobs in the country you have a hell of allot of competition (we get people from all over the world looking for jobs here), secondly there are allot of people in this industry who have bull****ted their way in (and they usually talk big but know nothing and make everyone else’s life a nightmare).. And once these people get some power its VERY difficult to get rid of them.
I know someone who was the Development manager for Take 2 about 6 years ago, he has also moved around quite a bit and was struggling to get a job as a producer, but then he got in contact with an old work colleague who had just started up his own company and he’s now back as a Development manager years later..
As I say it is tough and just having experience and knowledge isn’t enough any more... These days as the investors and money men are in charge you have to fulfil your job description and nothing more (working hard and doing more than is expected of you gets you nowhere these days), there are now so many processes and things like performance reviews and forms to fill in and its not fun. Which is why you guys in SA are so lucky. You have the opportunity to make games that are fully under your control because believe me when you work for a big company you don’t get to make allot of the creative decisions and you are limited on how much time and money you have to make your game. And its killing the creativity (and have no doubts creativity is what made this industry so big) in games which is why most big titles are rehashes or sequels as those are the only things that the investors (whom most have no vision) trust.. You try to put something in front of them that is completely original and they aren’t interested as its not proven it will make money. And money is all they are interested in.
So as I say, you guys need to appreciate that you have the chance at the moment to actually change the world gaming industry if you can come up with original and creative titles that actually shape the industry (think what GTA did for modern day games, it practically created a whole new genre).
Anyway I seem to be babbling now so I will stop :o
Tr00jg
23-08-2007, 06:11 PM
Great post Rabs. Its great to actually see the SA scene like you mentioned it. Small, yet able to pivot the industry. I like it!
Hutch
23-08-2007, 06:12 PM
Disclaimer: I am South African Citizen; I don’t hate the country in any way shape or form. When I criticize the place I do it as a realist and hopefully to stimulate the production of solutions. If you feel I exaggerate at any point, I would be more than happy to justify myself.
Disleckcia what you do for this community is great and I applaud you.
That said
Rabs
I fear your optimism will desert you at a ridiculous speed as soon as you land at Oliver Thambo airport.
Yes indeed, I do have a lot to learn about game “develoopment”. I try to on a daily basis to learn more as just an avid hobbyist.
I was being a bit of a prick. Sorry. I too am in England. Its wet and I can honestly tell you High Wycombe needs to burn to the ground. It’s a bad day. I didn’t have time to properly convey what I actually wanted because my morning was a rush.
When I made my statement about testers it was not intended to offend you, its purpose is to de glorify the notion that being a tester is all daisies. It’s the slave labour of the industry. I am more than familiar with their purpose on projects.
I can honestly tell you that you are going to struggle in South Africa (if you choose a career in the games industry). Never for one moment think that I’m poking your talent or skill set. You could spin straw into gold for all I know. I’m blatantly going to tell you as a South African citizen living in the uk. The games industry in SA is comparable to the bikini market in the Middle East. Bleak. Not a great comparison but I think you get he point.
I’m guessing you got nice and excited when you googled “SA game development” (or something along those lines) and this chest nut popped up, giving you a glimmer of hope that we have a career for you somewhere. I’d suggest looking out of the games industry for a job that may provide enough cash to feed oneself, Say with your electrical installation certification. Our country is in dire need of tradesmen, not game developers sadly.
Just remember you’re coming to a third world country that’s trying to sort out collapsing infrastructures, aids induced workforce gaps, Poverty, corruption and a plethora of other troubles.
Statement like:
“So as I say, you guys need to appreciate that you have the chance at the moment to actually change the world gaming industry if you can come up with original and creative titles that actually shape the industry (think what GTA did for modern day games, it practically created a whole new genre).”
Are very ambitious and optimistic. I hope you’re right. But from living in both countries and actively assessing both situations, the statement makes me want to defecate upon myself. Once again no offence intended. That was just the feeling it literally conjured up. Maybe I should get my bowels checked.
I’ve seen guys walk out of escape studios and other varsities around England and are working on some of the most innovative some would say industry changing projects. If anything I believe Europe and Japan are the places to be if you wish to influence or change the industry.
I apologize for this poor response. I’m at work. I should be working
Hey Hutch,
Well yes I understand what you are trying to say and I agree that at the moment to work on THE BEST in the world that you need to be in the UK, the USA or Japan.. But thats just for now.. I have first hand experience as a Producer at THQ Wireless, games companies of great quality are now coming from every part of the world including India, China, Australia and well you name it. I have seen demos and design documents from all over.. And that was something that actually changed while I wass in the job we started off with like 85%-90% UK and USA based developers and within 3 years we were using developers from all over the world who were creating projects just as good as I have seen in th UK etc.. They still have some catching up to do but I assure you it wont be long.
And with the situation in SA, my wife is from there and we have a coder here from Cape Town, plus I have been speaking to quite a few of you guys on these sites and no one has tried to convince me that the game development is the happening thing in SA but they all have great attitudes some of the work I have seen is of a great standard and my point about the fact they can do what they want as you probably know is that to do something truley original is really difficult, thus the reason companies like EA just produce the same old **** year in year out. We could praticlly tell you the line up now, new Harry Potter game, new Fifa game, new Sims game.. Greeeaattt arnt we all sick of this crap by now??
People in independant companies have the chance to create something new and that hasnt been done before as they dont have investors breathing down their necks. And SA to me feels like its on the tip of going somewhere.. And if all of the talent leaves the country of course it wont happen.. (not dissing you or anyone that has left but thats just a fact)
Im not blind to what I am going to see whan I go over, but its something I am not relying on, but if I can in any way help the SA game development community over there I am going to try.. It may work it may not like any business venture. But I cant believe no matter what you say that there is no talent out there at all..
I think if someone could go and help raise the bar to what is going to be expected by the big publisers that SA games could become something big.. If you dont have some faith and at least try you will never get anywhere..
Well time will tell I guess. I have to get over there first.. (and yes the weather is amazing crap, one of the big reasons I want out of here)
cairnswm
23-08-2007, 07:04 PM
Hi Rabs
I think its quite exciting to have an experienced Game Dev professional thinking of moving to SA. In fact it might just be what our little game dev community needs to move it to another level of success.
As in any "industry" or "community" people are accepted by what they do. You have said you'd like to help the community, even if its not big enough to actually give you a job. I think thats great.
The point I am getting to is that you can start doing that help right now. There are a number of ways open to you already, firstly get involved on this site, being involved here will definitly show your commitment to the cause, secondly send in articles to http://www.devmag.org.za . With your experience you could become one of our community leaders very quickly indead.
One thing we as game developers in South Africa experience quite often is disillusionment. So many people pop up that say how much they are going to do, how much they are going to contribute etc, and in most cases they disappear after being asked some detailed questions. This is one of the reasons its taken me so long to respond to you, but you seem to have weathered the critism quite well and could therefore stick around.
So welcome to our community, and we would love you to learn from your experiences!
Korax
23-08-2007, 08:41 PM
...and we do need some experienced help to help with all the aspects of game development we ourselves dont have enough or at all experience with.
The biggest favour we can do for ourselves is to start supporting each other, forget about negativities and trying to seperate ourselves from others with the same goal, just because you dont agree with the way they do things and basically anything else that stands in our way for reaching our dreams and really becoming great.
We should start believing in ourselves and in the abilities and limitations of person next to you.
It will be VERY hard to actually build a game development company ( not event mentioning industry ) , but it helps a lot to stay optimistic about it. If not, we will remain where we was, say, 10 years back: NOWHERE.
The biggest problem we have when we talk funding is, like it was previously touched on is South Africa has a very industrial economy and not much of an entertainment economy.
But there are many ways to skin a cat. ;)
Tr00jg
23-08-2007, 09:06 PM
I researched SA's turbulent game dev past, and it has worked before. What I learned from it is that we shouldn't try to compete against the other studios overseas, but rather create our own market from down here. With this I mean, creating small-ish, innovative games that push the boundaries of games. Who agrees with me?
Gazza_N
23-08-2007, 09:12 PM
Aye! It seems to be working in Europe and Russia, from what I've read.
Anyway, any person who can bring experience to the community benefits everyone, hobbyists and prospective careerists alike.
Oh, and a massive "welcome" to all the newcomers. ;)
Korax
23-08-2007, 09:14 PM
I fully agree.
We have enough talent to get something done.
All thats really needed is some funding ( not even a lot ) and some direction.
I'm thinking here "Gothic II".
The game was mainly developed by Germans for Germans and only much later did they have an english version for export, and it was an RPG hit, and well in league with leading games like The Elder Scrolls.
I think we can follow that same recipe.. I know I'm looking into this. :)
UntouchableOne
23-08-2007, 09:15 PM
I agree Tr00jg. Instead of competing with other studios, we should create our own style and see if it catches on in the local market maybe even international market through things like the GGE. We could stumble across something big and actually make something of south africa's game industry.
CiNiMoDZA
23-08-2007, 09:17 PM
I agree with you TrOOjg! Just to prove that innovation sells more than graphics and raw power, just look at the Nintendo Wii! Not nearly as powerful as the Xbox 360 or PS3! Yet is outselling it every month! Not because of its amazing graphics or huge titles, but rather because it does something new, and it does it well!!!
dammit
23-08-2007, 09:18 PM
Why not try:
http://www.i-imagine.com/index.htm
Cyberninja
23-08-2007, 09:48 PM
Welcome to the Game.Dev forums, Rabs. :) I'm sure your experience in the industry will prove to be a great asset, to all here. Yes, game development isn't as robust in S.A, when compared to other countries. But there are alot of talented and dedicated people here. Guys like Luma: http://www.luma.co.za/ and i-imagine prove that with alot of hard work, S.A can eventually hit the international game development scene in a big way. Let's not forget the indie developers too. It will just require time and effort. All the best for your venture in S.A. :)
tbulford
23-08-2007, 10:12 PM
This thread was brought to my attention by a friend of mine and I felt I really had to add something here :D
Firstly I agree with kurtkz regarding welcoming you here. As one of the few ppl to have to some degree of success run a computer games development house here in South Africa I can tell you what was like for us.
Whilst costs here are cheaper its of little consequence to international companies as really production costs are a fraction of marketing costs and the distance creates a huge gap in terms of funds management. So getting funding from offshore is really very difficult. Having said that its possible you have contacts that could of course make all the difference.
Our marketing, film and music industrial are very well founded so there is no trouble getting very high quality production material other then cost of course.
There are a growing number of flash games developments happening here now that are mostly for educations needs but it has been creating some momentum at least. I am currently unaware of any full time professional games developments going on. That is not to say they are none I just am not in the loop anymore where current is concerned LOL.
What you would bring to us that we do not have is loads of great experience in terms of the structures and methods used to polish and professionally deliver games. That insight and experience is of great value.
We never found investment and were always raising money whilst working on our games projects. Poor experience and perhaps been a bit young we also did not see much capital from our 1st product that did over 150k units world wide. Ahhh and ppl thing varsity is expensive eh.
This experience is old but I can assure you we have a great many ppl here in South Africa with the artistic and technical skills to pull of games development. In my experience we just don't have a business market that has any interest in it despite the face that games this year old sold music for the 1st time.
But time will tell what games development is like here, hopefully soon it will be a fantastic experience for many of the talented ppl living here.
Travis Bulford
Hey guys,
Well thanks for all the coments its good to hear. And its good to see you being positive about all this, cos if you dont have that attitude in the first place you can forget it.
Making a game is very difficult thing to do to a AAA standard. During the development process there will probably arguments both creativly and in the proceedures and depending on peoples proffesionality it can go smoothly or if you start taking things personaly it can go really badly. Communication is probably the biggest key to this,if theres a problem, no matter how big you neeed to let people know STRAIGHT AWAY or things build up and people get ****ed off and, well I have seen what could have been a good game ruined by that.
As I said earlier I have seen many countries start to develop amazing things, and yes I agree with some of the above comments that you first need to make money and establish yourselfs by tapping into the local market (how about to start off with something that will benifit the country like educational games for mobiles?) or doing something so essisentially South African that everyone will love it.. After a short disscusion with my wife I have just come up with an idea.. A South African version of Crazy Taxi, you will have Robots instead of trafficlights, crazy Jozi taxis to deal with (I think you can all appreciate that :o ) and get sponsership from local shops and stores and feature them in it (like when Sega did it there was Kuntucky Fried Chicken, HMV and various shops).
If you can get somethinglike that going, I can see it doing pretty well...
Anyway, I look forward to speaking to more of you and discussing ideas etc..
You can mail me at rabs97@hotmail.com cos I will probably read that quicker.
Cheers,
Rabs.
Hey Travis..
Thanks for the post.. Again its really nice to see positive comments coming from SA, a few weeks ago I actually was quite down on the idea as such as I didnt think there was ANY established development. So this is good to see.
And yes I have many contacts in publishing and development aswell. I know a few communities that share code which can often be really helpful. But its been a while since I looked into it so would have to do some checking.
Anyway, thanks again for the replies.. And will hopefully speak to some of you further.
Cheers,
Rabs
dislekcia
24-08-2007, 01:04 AM
Wow. This thread is now legendary...
Welcome to the forums Mr Bulford, I'd heard you were still around here somewhere ;) Any chance of getting you to come and talk at rAge? I know that we'd get a lot of interest for the full Celestial story. Last year we had Dan Wagner explain how I-Imagine's history went and that was received very well.
But enough fanboying out, there's stuff relevant to the topic to talk about:
People are definitely right in saying that in SA it's hard creating a game development house. It's equally hard getting funding and/or publishers for projects. In a way, that's where I see Game.Dev stepping in: Addressing the big problems that are in every developer's way.
Things like the difficulties in setting up e-commerce-based companies in SA. If we're going to have a healthy Indie developer segment, we need those developers to be able to accept credit cards via their websites. Paypal doesn't support SA, so we have to make it happen in other ways.
Education of young, interested future developers is also very important. We're working on getting more access to schools and exposure to the kids that all us older devs were back in the day. I'd love to have more material to help grow specialist fields like game art, management, etc. The more we recycle experience, the better the future industry will be, because it's not a matter of if it will happen, it's simply a question of how. Rabs is right that we have an opportunity here to do things a different way than already established overseas game industries.
Game.Dev also has a role to play in helping clients and people with game-shaped needs meet developers. Often individual devs are hard to reach or unsupported when they run into problems, plus very few markets in SA know that they have game-shaped needs to be addressed! So Game.Dev works from both sides: Educating markets on how games and game-like solutions can help them; As well as providing developers to fill those needs... You can see that happening with the recent Mindset sponsorship of Competition 15. I fully expect Mindset to start paying a few of the developers who entered - as well as helping them with graphics and educational resources - in order to improve the games they submitted. When that happens it will be a big moment for me, because it will mean that Game.Dev's approach really works in terms of creating a demand for a game industry here in SA.
Plus Game.Dev is here to bring developers together. A big problem locally is the isolation effect: People keep trying to re-invent the same wheel as everyone else, or they simply don't know that they're not alone in experiencing problem X and so get discouraged. A community of developers solves problems and establishes goals much more efficiently, especially if the focus is on producing good games at the end of the day.
So. Personally I see an industry growing here in SA via the Indie route: Once we have a few locals making a living by selling their games online (be they niche or casual), we'll have a lot more impetus and exposure with which to drive new people and new clients. That will go hand in hand with the efforts of drivers like Luma and I-Imagine (if they re-appear, rumors are sketchy) and the few local markets that want games made for them. Hopefully we can create a reputation for SA games - one of creativity and style, much like eastern bloc games are known for their technical achievements.
And we're already seeing cool stuff coming out of all this. Like anything if you keep working at it, it grows - besides, giving up now would kinda be silly ;)
-D
cairnswm
24-08-2007, 07:47 AM
I think another area that SA is doing well in is Mobile game dev. One of my colleagues here at work has just resigned to join one of the big Mobile content companies at a VERY good salary.
Miktar
24-08-2007, 09:55 AM
This thread was brought to my attention by a friend of mine and I felt I really had to add something here :D
Long time no see - last time I saw you was at Optimize '99. Welcome back to the land of the living. ;)
tbulford
24-08-2007, 05:13 PM
Long time no see - last time I saw you was at Optimize '99. Welcome back to the land of the living. ;)
Hello, My gosh that was ages agao. Allthough as many late nights as I had I dont recal any bovine entrants LOL. Miktar is also not an handle I recal but it was realy realy long ago too. Dam those were good days.
Miktar
24-08-2007, 05:16 PM
Dislekcia and I were the two kids who just would not leave you guys alone at Icon/Gencon after playing that great build of The Tainted you had there - it was the year Icon/Gencon held the first StarCraft tournament in South Africa, back in 1998.
tbulford
24-08-2007, 06:15 PM
Dislekcia and I were the two kids who just would not leave you guys alone at Icon/Gencon after playing that great build of The Tainted you had there - it was the year Icon/Gencon held the first StarCraft tournament in South Africa, back in 1998.
Ok other then making me fell really really really old I do recal the day quite well. At elast our stand was never empty.
:D
Himmler
25-08-2007, 02:20 PM
So. Personally I see an industry growing here in SA via the Indie route: Once we have a few locals making a living by selling their games online (be they niche or casual), we'll have a lot more impetus and exposure with which to drive new people and new clients. That will go hand in hand with the efforts of drivers like Luma and I-Imagine (if they re-appear, rumors are sketchy) and the few local markets that want games made for them. Hopefully we can create a reputation for SA games - one of creativity and style, much like eastern bloc games are known for their technical achievements.
I agree totally with this. We shouldn't limit ourselves to making games for South Africans. When producing indie titles, location doesn't matter at all. The internet is a universal home for every contry that can connect to it. And with XNA GSE you can make those indie titles very easilly accesible.
I am going for imbeded GM game demos into my webpages, with the buy now buton next to it approach from now on.
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