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liquid.silver
26-12-2008, 05:59 PM
So the basic concept is as follows:

in hydro the aim is to place special blocks to redirect water to a special 'tank' and fill it to a required level. you can do things like use pumps, open and close valves and watch as the water level rises and falls.

I've setup a drop for the game here: http://drop.io/hydrogame

I have considered using this as a idea for comp 21, however, it still needs a lot of work to be playable without a mouse (unless i just hacked in a pseudo-mouse) and it is a long time from being finished, so i think i'm going to leave it.

Currently the game is still in an early stage and you there is no real structure. The sample level that comes with, shows how you can limit the water level in an area. There is still lots of room for complex puzzles and intricate systems.

There is a readme which outlines the keys you can press (press space to get started) and the different types of blocks.

Current version is 0.04 alpha: http://drop.io/hydrogame/asset/hydro-0-04-win32-alpha

So what i'm wanting to kno is what you guys think. Is this concept fun? Would you play it? What can i add/remove to improve it?

liquid.silver
27-12-2008, 05:06 PM
Released a new version: http://drop.io/hydrogame/asset/hydro-0-03-win32-alpha

Updated the graphics. Removed some unnecessary files to limit the download size. Added a goal block. Changed the way you place alternative blocks.

You'll need to make all of the goal blocks touch water to beat a level. At the moment tho nothing will happen when you do, but it at least has a tally of your progress at the bottom.

To place a pump that points left, you'll need to play one pump and then, with the pump tool still selected click, on the pump again. This applies similarly to switches and valves to change between NO and NC.

So has anyone had a look? What do you think? Some feedback would be nice.

liquid.silver
28-12-2008, 02:24 AM
yet another update from me :) (i kno i'm updating rather fast, but some feedback would still be appreciated. even a simple "wtf, i don't understand what to do")

http://drop.io/hydrogame/asset/hydro-0-04-win32-alpha

this one is at least slightly playable. the packaged level is fairly simple tho, but there are a number of ways of completing it:


just put some green blocks over the gap to stop the water from draining away
as well as doing 1, put more green blocks around to stop the water from filling up unnecessary blocks
use pumps to pumps the water across the screen very quickly


later in the game, there will be a timer and some levels might possibly have a time limit.

there is now 2 modes (normal play and editor), press m to toggle modes.

blocks can also be made 'uneditable' which mean that in normal mode you can't edit them, this is a necessity for proper gameplay.

there are still 2 things that are bugging me tho:

the name - what do you guys think? it ok? was originally just a working title, but i've never got round to changing it
i get the impression that there might not be that much room for interesting level design. this is rather worrying as it'll limit the length of the game - thoughts?

Nandrew
28-12-2008, 12:27 PM
Hi,

I've only gotten as far as playing your revision in post number 2, so I'll base my commentary on that.

The version that you released is admittedly rather confusing, and though I've done my best to fiddle around and experiment, I'd still appreciate a release in the near future which has more levels and a gradual introduction of the blocks and features. If testers have an easier time figuring out what Hydro is about, they'll be able to give you more constructive feedback on the puzzle dynamics.

Aside from that, I do like the looks of this. A water-based puzzle game should be pretty neat if you can get it right (and unfortunately you'll need to work on the physics from v0.03, I've tried several block combos which has the water acting *very* strangely). It could be fun, but of course the problem with any designed, non-random puzzle game is finding a way to get interesting level design.

In short, every puzzle game which I've designed like this is a brain-scorcher. To get good levels going, you need to be capable of out-thinking and challenging any potential players across a very wide range of scenarios. And if you want your puzzle game to be fiendish or complicated, then your mind is going to have to go the same way. This is really, really difficult.

What I would do to make level design easier:

(1) Throw a few more toys into the machine. Get some extra kinds of blocks going. I wouldn't go overboard (some of the best puzzle games rely on relatively few unique actors), but if this game is looking to be a challenge, then I'd say you sit down and consider what else would be a good idea to fit into your system. What else fits with water? Tanks, faucets, filters? Would it be a good idea to do things to the water such as boiling or freezing? Or can you make the presence of water trigger more special blocks (hydro power, short-circuiting, weight-based platform)? Give it some thought, design a few levels on paper/notepad and consider how additions to the system would work. Then put them into the code.

(2) A raw technique that I use for level generation sometimes is as follows: Somewhere, write down every featured block in your game. Dedicate one level to introducing each new block (or more than one block if there's dependencies). Between each of those levels, slot in one or two levels which are committed to further exploring the new feature by pairing it up with one or more older features to solve puzzles. If you have just 10 unique block types in your game, that's already at least 20 unique level permutations handed to you. You also give players a more confident grounding in each new feature -- there's always one level dedicated to introducing a concept, followed by another level to test what they've learned. It's kinda like schooling.

(3) The most difficult part comes after you've introduced all your new features but still want to carry on with the game, as you need to recycle older components but still sustain player interest. Go back to each of your levels, and look out for permutations which don't yet exist (ie, you've made a level with component A, another one with A and B, and another one with A, B and C. Now force yourself to build a level with components A and C only). There may be a few dud levels which you could choose to abandon, but there should also be quite a few gems offered as a result. Then you can slot these levels in between the others, or straight after them, depending on what you feel is appropriate.

(4) My last bit of advice regarding level design: don't worry too much about the difficulty curve after your "introductory phase" is complete. If a given level design that you thought would be brutal turns out to be easy, then so be it. If another level looks to be a lot more difficult than originally intended, leave that alone too. The whole idea is that you generate a mass of levels, then afterwards have a look at their relative complexities and rearrange them accordingly. This is much better than trying to keep the difficulty balance "as you go along".

That's all I have to say for now. Level design has always been a bugbear for me and I'm always on the lookout for more generation techniques and strategies. If it turns out to be difficult for your game, well ... I've yet to create a game where it becomes easy, so you'll probably have to duke it out.


(--EDIT--)

You really don't have to care about the name. Get a working title that offers a suitable description of the product, slap it into your game with 12 pt Times New Roman and be done with it. You can change it later on in production.

dislekcia
28-12-2008, 01:05 PM
Another level design strategy I use when I can is to build a system that randomly spits out collections of level elements and write down any interesting arrangements I see that might be fun to play. It's even better if you can actually play the random levels to see what those segments are like on the fly. The generator doesn't have to be good or coherent, in fact the more random it is the better. You're going to play thousands of quick tests to get 50 usable ideas.

liquid.silver
28-12-2008, 02:53 PM
Thanx for that long post nandrew :)

About level design:
I think you guy have given me more than enough advice in that area and i'm much happier about it now. I think i should be just fine. I especially like the idea of generating random levels and trying them, it should be rather easy with my current system to have them playable as well.

Also I was strongly considering adding a new block or element to the game. But i think maybe i don't need to right now. There are still 2 that i'm planning on adding, namely water turbines and tesla coils. The water turbines can generate power from falling water and the tesla coils can 'transport' power across the level. So i think i'm gonna just add those 2 and then leave things unless there is a problem.

About general playability:
Sorry about it being rather difficult for play testers. I have actually been quite aware of this and i tried to address it slightly in 0.04 with a slightly playable level. I'll try focus quite a bit more on this very soon.

About the physics:
The truth is that most things in the game don't really behave as real world physics should. But as everyone who's every played a game knows, it's about perception, not what's really happening. It would be almost impossible to simulate real water in this type of game, and it would only run with cpu from a few years in the future.

You say that you get some weird things happening... can you please explain a bit more, i find that my systems seem rather believable with me. Two possible things i think it could be is:

air pockets: remember that air pockets can form if there is no air vent in them. This is how it should be. Remember also that those large holes also allow air flow. For a while at least.
water getting stuck in the air: there was such a bug, but it has since been addressed, not sure if it was in the version you looked at.

Do you think you could please give me more details? If you like, you can save the problem level and send me the 'level.dat' file along with the relevant version number. That should be more than enough for me to see what you mean. It's just a bit difficult to fix stuff when i don't kno what you mean. :)

Nandrew
28-12-2008, 03:16 PM
Fair enough, the air pocket factor was confusing at first, but I understand what you're getting at now.

Aside from that and the tendency of water to "mound up" a bit like sand, which in a gameplay sense is forgivable, I doubt I've come across anything too strange. The air pockets would explain a lot of previously bewildering situations.

liquid.silver
28-12-2008, 04:06 PM
Ok good. Glad there wasn't a glaring bug i was missing. In the introductory levels, the air pockets will be properly explained. I am aware of the when the water 'mounds up' and it is kinda meant to do that, but after playing around i did find a small bug that causes the water level to flicker. Will address that later.