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Icenflame
09-09-2008, 03:10 PM
Hi guy's I know this has most likely been brought up but I once dabbled in 3D modelling when I first arrived in Cape Town did basic things like Modelling a Pizza shop for a friend. I feel that I have a fair amount of competence in this field.

I then decided to try and study 3D animation, however a huge cooperate opportunity came my way and night study was just not an option for my current job requirements, late hours international travel and the like.

Thinks have finally settled down and I am beginning to have the usual 3 year employment crisis and I don't quite think I am cut out for the corporate world I should have just pursued what made me happy and that was the thought of Animating and 3D modelling.

So now as I re-evaluate my current position in life I still feel a yearning to do what I felt was right for me. I'm looking at brushing up my skills and once I do is their a market for 3D modelling? I'm more than willing to do it pro-bono to get my name out into the market.

Firstly am I asking in the wrong place? And if so where would be the best place for me to direct my queries?

Many thanks gals/guys

Rooi
09-09-2008, 03:31 PM
Well, the market is not so big in south-africa. My favorite studio being Luma Studios, their work is top notch.

Your best bet, would be to create a sick demo reel, using your preferred software, nowadays the studios appreciate sculpting skills as well. So get some Zbrush going or similar software while you are at it. Then send your demo reel to some of our local studios, if it rocks, chances are you will get a great job.

Lurk on www.Cgtalk.com and also get some Gnome DVD sets to help you improve your skills.

I once had the same dream, but after quitting my job to work on my reel, which took 6 months, i gave up after receiving **** feedback from the world. Then i went back to the corporate world. It sucks ass, but i could not afford to do another reel as i ran out of money.

One thing is for sure, when you are a noob, 6 months is not enough to make a killer reel. its enough to learn a lot of new skills, but regrettably it was more like doing a training course than actually working on my reel.

I reckon if i had 6 more months i would have nailed a CG job for sure. But ja, now i just dabble around once in a while.

PS. The advise i gave is basically what Jason from Luma Studios gave me those many years back. Make a great reel, focus on as little as possible for instance Animation and modeling, or just modeling or just animation. If you cant texture, leave it grey...

But ja dude... the people from Luma is very cool, send them an email, ask them for advise, they will get back to you, or so i reckon considering the great interaction i had with them a few years back.

onona
09-09-2008, 06:45 PM
I'm more than willing to do it pro-bono to get my name out into the market.

No, you shouldn't. Frankly, this attitude is thoroughly exploited by studios. If you feel that your skills aren't worth being paid for, then you're not ready to go into the market. Simple as that. Do yourself a favour, and work really hard to build a solid skillset, and then sell it. Do not work for free. This only cheapens the trade and makes things difficult for everyone.


Well, the market is not so big in south-africa. My favorite studio being Luma Studios, their work is top notch.

There are quite a few studios though.


Your best bet, would be to create a sick demo reel, using your preferred software, nowadays the studios appreciate sculpting skills as well. So get some Zbrush going or similar software while you are at it.

I'd advise against this. Leave ZBrush until you've properly mastered poly modeling.

I've been working in this industry for many years, and find it an extremely rewarding, fun, challenging and ultimately, ****ing cool job. It can be difficult to break into initially (I'm lucky in that I got it into it back in the days when you could practically get a job if you could make a cube), but once you've got your foot in the door, it's a career that can take you far. I've worked with studios around the world, and have made so many friends in this industry. I can't imagine doing any other job.

Himmler
10-09-2008, 06:50 AM
First thing, its been ages since i have posted anything here, so just so you know, i am not a troll, just very busy ;)

http://www.turbosquid.com

Go their, register, fill in all the details and start loading up 3d models for say $2 a pop. They seem to prefer either low poly game models, i.e. guns ect. or high end high poly scene props, i.e. Car models ect.

Make what you want to make to learn the skills, and upload and sell it their.

I currently have only 5 models loaded atm. I uploaded them at the end of April this year. Since then they have had approx. 180 full views since then, and i have one sale to my name. That is a pretty good feeling to have i assure you, even if i only get $1 for it ;)

This is a valuable tool, because this is for me the only TRUE measuring stick to see which of your models are crap, and which are decent.

If you need help in how it works, drop me a PM and ill help you out.

Icenflame
10-09-2008, 08:44 AM
Hi all, thanks for the great feedback, going to work on increasing my skill set and get back to my basic modelling tutorials. I'm fairly rusty but the more I think about doing something like this the more I get excited.

It's funny how things turn out 7 years in the cooperate industry is enough for me. I may not be a spring chicken but I'd rather try do what I wanted to do when I first moved here instead of just living from month to month.

3 half finished degree's later and I'm heading in the direction I first started in, it is truly a strange world...

Kensei
10-09-2008, 11:24 AM
Well, the market is not so big in south-africa. My favorite studio being Luma Studios, their work is top notch.

Um, I might be wrong (::looks for Coolhand:: ) but Luma is now a gaming studio and not just a graphics studio... I think... er... But they would likely want a 3D artist... not sure...

::slinks off because she knows little about the market::

Azimuth
10-09-2008, 02:44 PM
This is a valuable tool, because this is for me the only TRUE measuring stick to see which of your models are crap, and which are decent.


Yes, because peer review by working industry professionals over at places like CGTalk.com are entirely useless, right? :P

Icenflame
10-09-2008, 03:48 PM
Yes, because peer review by working industry professionals over at places like CGTalk.com are entirely useless, right? :P

one cannot help themselves can they.. :p keep the info flowing... and thanks for the positive feedback

FuzzYspo0N
10-09-2008, 10:35 PM
Um, I might be wrong (::looks for Coolhand:: ) but Luma is now a gaming studio and not just a graphics studio... I think... er... But they would likely want a 3D artist... not sure...

"Luma Arcade is a dedicated game development studio within Luma" is something i read along the way of the site. From what i can tell, right now there isnt speak of needing an artist. Though, that could change. The current artists in Luma arcade are FRIKKEN INSANE at what they do, and they are seriously skilled... i love their work and im learning a ton from their stuff.

And listen to onona industry guys often speak more truth then weird online forums :D

I'd advise against this. Leave ZBrush until you've properly mastered poly modeling.
I agree

Cyberninja
10-09-2008, 11:10 PM
Do the guys at Luma offer 3D training/internship Fuzzy? 0.0

Azimuth
10-09-2008, 11:10 PM
Onona is an industry girl.

Higushi
10-09-2008, 11:12 PM
Yeah, Luma is awesome. I visited their site a while back, they seem very open-minded about newcomers and very willing to help. They designed our game.dev shirts for rAge a while back, it was probably something they just did on the side for ****s and giggles, but it was an awesome shirt with a sweet looking 3D rendering on both sides.

I'm also looking to get into the 3D scene sometime. I've been messing around in 3D Studio Max for a few years now, but never really took the time to seriously learn something. Next year I'm studying Multimedia specializing in Digital Visual Arts through UNISA (A new degree starting next year), my 3rd (and final) attempt at a degree :p, I'm going to see what I can do to integrate 3D Animation and the like into that.


3 half finished degree's later and I'm heading in the direction I first started in, it is truly a strange world...

It's funny you should say that, it almost exactly the same for me. :p Gotta follow your dreams hey, you only got one life!

Good luck, I hope things work out for you! :)

onona
11-09-2008, 08:58 AM
This is a valuable tool, because this is for me the only TRUE measuring stick to see which of your models are crap, and which are decent.

No, it isn't. Turbosquid is a pile of ****. Sorry to break it to you, but ANYONE can put models on there. It doesn't mean anything.

And if you need some site like that to test whether your work is good or not, then you have failed in one of the most important skills that any artist should have: a critical eye, and a sense of self-critique. If you cannot judge how good your own work is, then you have a long way to go.

FuzzYspo0N
11-09-2008, 10:55 AM
lol yea, its like saying that deviantart is a place to see if you are good at art or not. But yea,

Im not sure exactly about the internships, i happen to be posting (as this is, in fact) in the game dev thread... i am part of the game studio, not the animation side. You can always email them ("the mysterious them") by getting an email off the luma site im sure. Luma arcade will have a site pretty soon, too.

Higushi
11-09-2008, 10:56 AM
And if you need some site like that to test whether your work is good or not, then you have failed in one of the most important skills that any artist should have: a critical eye, and a sense of self-critique. If you cannot judge how good your own work is, then you have a long way to go.

This is so very true.

Sometimes I find people are so non-self critical its rediculous. I mean, you don't have to be harsh on yourself but, come on dude! Do you think that's appealing? Often you sound like an ass to tell people their work is crap, and you just wish they could have figured that out themselves...

Icenflame
11-09-2008, 11:23 AM
This is so very true.

Sometimes I find people are so non-self critical its rediculous. I mean, you don't have to be harsh on yourself but, come on dude! Do you think that's appealing? Often you sound like an ass to tell people their work is crap, and you just wish they could have figured that out themselves...

the above it true, however some people myself included can be overcritical of anything one does... I suppose it's about finding a fine balance, but peer reviews are good but only once you reach a certain skill level, I'm not going to submit a soccer ball and ask for opinions on it :p

onona
11-09-2008, 11:49 AM
lol yea, its like saying that deviantart is a place to see if you are good at art or not.

Deviantart is almost singlehandedly responsible for massively inflating the egos of thousands of frankly talentless digital "artists". The rampant sycophancy there is mildly nauseating.

onona
11-09-2008, 11:59 AM
the above it true, however some people myself included can be overcritical of anything one does... I suppose it's about finding a fine balance, but peer reviews are good but only once you reach a certain skill level, I'm not going to submit a soccer ball and ask for opinions on it :p

But being over-critical is better than being oblivious. I don't want to be nasty, but an example of this problem can be seen on this guy's site (http://starlight3d.net/). His bio skills list claims an incredible level of ability, yet his actual work is extraordinarily poor. He is obviously totally lacking any sense of self critique, because frankly he should be able to look at his work, and realise that it looks terrible.

If you ever need any help with your 3D, Icenflame (if you want feedback or anything), feel free to drop me a line.

Icenflame
11-09-2008, 12:08 PM
Ok I get what you saying about the 'on this guys site'... yes I think I have slightly more potential than that, I've wanted to concentrate on the human dynamic body movement etc. I study a martial art and learning how the body moves and reacts in certain ways is a fascinating subject and I hope one day to carry that through my modelling...

Thank you for the offer of help I will most certainly take you up on it at a later stage. Much appreciated!

onona
11-09-2008, 02:01 PM
Heh yeah, that website was a rather extreme example. Since you're so interested in movement, have you considered also learning animation? Or are you only interested in modeling?

I don't want to come across as pimping my own site, but you should definitely consider signing up at cgtalk.com, because there is a lot of useful stuff there, and some cool people.

Icenflame
11-09-2008, 02:43 PM
well I'm primarily going to start with modelling to up skill myself with modelling with the end goal being animation.

onona
11-09-2008, 03:16 PM
Oh okay. It's just that animation is an entire art on its own, and if you're interested in animating, then it might be best to skip modeling and the rest, and focus specifically on that.

Rooi
11-09-2008, 03:17 PM
One modeling tutorial that broke the damn wall of inspiration for me, was the joan of arc tutorial.
One of the best written ones in my opinion.

Sure its a 3dsmax tutorial, but the same techniques can be used on other software.
http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp

onona
11-09-2008, 03:31 PM
For what it's worth, I am personally not a big advocate of following tutorials. I don't believe they really teach anything, since all you're doing is following instructions to create one specific thing. Basically, it's the same as following a recipe - sure, you can create a meal, but it doesn't necessarily teach you how to cook. If you want to get good at 3D, you need to study it properly. That means reading books and articles to understand the theory behind the process, and to simply put that into practice yourself.

I've never done a single tutorial.

Rooi
11-09-2008, 04:07 PM
But doesn't a cook learn to cook through recipe's? Or do they just chuck random stuff together till it tastes better?

But I'm just asking.

onona
11-09-2008, 04:13 PM
People who are studying to be chefs study ingredients, and how to use them together effectively.

Frankly I see step-by-step modeling tutorials as spoon-feeding. They teach you to follow a set of instructions, instead of actually teaching you how to model. There are plenty of websites and books and other learning materials out there that teach theory and concepts and techniques, without resorting to numbered, step-by-step recipes that ultimately don't benefit an artist very much.

Rooi
11-09-2008, 04:27 PM
Would Jeremy Birn's Digital Lighting and rendering qualify as one of those?

onona
11-09-2008, 04:33 PM
Yes, that's actually a good book. I know Jeremy personally, and he really knows his stuff (I mean, he does, after all, work at Pixar). He recently updated the book. I haven't read the update but I'm sure it's a good read.

Rooi
11-09-2008, 04:37 PM
Should be, i still got the old one, the 2000 version... and the "Digital Texturing and painting" by Owen Demers.

And yes, Jeremy seems to know his ****.

onona
11-09-2008, 04:42 PM
"Digital Texturing and painting" by Owen Demers.


That's not such a good book. It suggests really impractical methods of texturing, and is quite out of date.

Rooi
11-09-2008, 04:46 PM
For a noob like me, it was the ****s back in 2001... yet, despite having read as much as i can on the subject, if you cannot texture, you cannot texture... as simple as that.

onona
11-09-2008, 04:54 PM
Texturing just takes practice, and an understanding of how it works. All you really need is some artistic ability, solid Photoshop knowledge and skill, and an ability to work well with colours and photographs. Texturing is my specific area of expertise, and I learned it without any books on the subject. I just read software manuals to understand what each map does, and then practiced.

FuzzYspo0N
11-09-2008, 07:36 PM
Yea, i love texturing, but doing it well is something i lack a lot of. Being a game focussed artist (note : i am a developer, not an artist i do art for fun) i learned fragments of things vital to making things look good in 3d. at least im under sick sick influence at the moment. im learning BUNCHES.

onona , what do you think of Modo in terms of industry giants. Some will die for max, etc i dont care for that crap its like browser wars. Im asking about feature based modelling tools like modo which pimp every aspect into one tool, and have done a damn nice job of it imho.
They have like, all aspects of 3d, and the tools are like normal tools modernised...
How do you see the progression of the applications in 3d? Is old methods better? Or are tools like modo changing the way productivity is affected in studios>?

*ill add, tools like modo as iv seen some others trying to be "modelling specific" with "improved workflow" where they automate certain things

Himmler
11-09-2008, 07:39 PM
Ok, its been a few days since posting, but some people seem to have misunderstood me, and my intentions.

Firstly, their is a huge difference in being an artist, and a polygon 3d modeler. Are you going to be making unique figures/characters for still scenes and animations purely for artistic reasons, or are you going to be making assets for games and movies that have been predefined or do actually exist (gun for a game ex.). I do the latter. Thus it is more about function and working to a predefined criteria, thus it isn't as much artistic, as it is CAD draughting. Now, in that case it is defenetly a good measuring stick to see how many people can actually use your assets and think they are worth while. Please, don't tell anyone what they doing are worthless, as i have not.

Secondly, why is turbosquid crap exactly? You say anyone can post a 3d model? Thats beside the point isn't it? I know that the model I posted is my origonal work, and that makes me feel good at least and reinforces my believe that my work is half decent when people flog out cash to buy them.

Tutorials DO help, why do you think they are their? I did the polygon model a Barreta 92s tutorial of 3dtotal.com and that showed me so many things i didn't know. And thus i was actually able to on my own model and texture and import a FN Browning into HL2.

How would i learn how to use an interface to make a tire for a motorcar if i haven't at least seen one tutorial how to do something similar?

Now, i am quiet interrested in what direction you are thinking of going? Are you going to make lush scenes or characters purelly for stills? Or are you going for functional models for games/movies/adverts ect.

That said 3dtotal.com has a lot of support and info, check it out. (Excuse my spelling please. )

FuzzYspo0N
11-09-2008, 09:48 PM
himmler, are u in the 3d industry? at all? you argue with someone, who for certain knows millions more, millions more experience etc etc. what a fail. anyway, that note aside, both parties involved in that vein of discussion seem to forget, its personal choice. do tutorials. dont do tutorials. just dont act like your opinion is fact. BUT when i see someone 1 million ^ 2 times better then me, my ears prick up cos im sure they can help me learn more, faster. i dont get defensive lol

onona
11-09-2008, 10:09 PM
onona , what do you think of Modo in terms of industry giants. Some will die for max, etc i dont care for that crap its like browser wars. Im asking about feature based modelling tools like modo which pimp every aspect into one tool, and have done a damn nice job of it imho.
They have like, all aspects of 3d, and the tools are like normal tools modernised...
How do you see the progression of the applications in 3d? Is old methods better? Or are tools like modo changing the way productivity is affected in studios>?

I haven't actually used Modo in a really long time - a studio I used to work at a few years ago had a few seats of it, and we'd use it occasionally, but i haven't used it since then - so I am actually out of touch with it, and as such I don't really have much in the way of an opinion about it. But the thing with modeling is that it's the part of the pipeline least likely to have compatibility issues, and most studios I have worked at over the years have allowed the modelers to use whatever software they want. As long as it can spit out an obj file that can go through a studio's asset publishing and into the rest of the pipeline, then the choice of software isn't all that crucial, so packages like Modo, Silo, and other purely modeling focused applications, definitely have a place in the market. Having said that, most of the modelers I know and work with still model in Maya.


*ill add, tools like modo as iv seen some others trying to be "modelling specific" with "improved workflow" where they automate certain things

What sorts of things are automated? Bearing in mind that most mid to large sized studios develop and constantly use a lot of proprietary tools, many of the supposedly fancy tools that you get in many of these packages go largely unused in the high end of the industry.



Firstly, their is a huge difference in being an artist, and a polygon 3d modeler.

You're so wrong there. A modeler with no artistic skill is going to be a crap modeler. Period.


Are you going to be making unique figures/characters for still scenes and animations purely for artistic reasons, or are you going to be making assets for games and movies that have been predefined or do actually exist (gun for a game ex.).

Predefined concepts or not, a good modeler still requires artistic skill, and an artistic eye.


Thus it is more about function and working to a predefined criteria, thus it isn't as much artistic, as it is CAD draughting.

Bull****.


Now, in that case it is defenetly a good measuring stick to see how many people can actually use your assets and think they are worth while. Please, don't tell anyone what they doing are worthless, as i have not.

Sorry, not worthless. One dollar. Yeah, big difference there, right? Honestly, Turbosquid is a **** site. It is absolutely flooded with some of the worst 3D models I've ever seen. The fact that absolutely anyone can throw together a few polygons and put it up for sale for a few bucks makes the site rather useless. It is not taken seriously by the wider industry. I'm sorry to be the one to break the news to you.


Secondly, why is turbosquid crap exactly? You say anyone can post a 3d model? Thats beside the point isn't it? I know that the model I posted is my origonal work, and that makes me feel good at least and reinforces my believe that my work is half decent when people flog out cash to buy them.

You're missing the point. Getting a dollar for a model sold on a site frequented by hacks isn't really an achievement at all. Get a freelance client and charge them R3000 a day to model something, and then you know you're a decent modeler.


Tutorials DO help, why do you think they are their? I did the polygon model a Barreta 92s tutorial of 3dtotal.com and that showed me so many things i didn't know. And thus i was actually able to on my own model and texture and import a FN Browning into HL2.

I believe this is an exception, not the norm. The vast majority of tutorials just hand out a series of instructions, without explaining the method behind them. These simply don't teach you anything.


How would i learn how to use an interface to make a tire for a motorcar if i haven't at least seen one tutorial how to do something similar?

I managed fine on my own, when I was first learning. Back then, there weren't tutorials around to work from. The majority of people I have worked with over the years came from the same background. We're all living, working proof that you don't need tutorials to learn this stuff. Having said that, I am not saying that you shouldn't do tutorials, I am just saying you're not going to learn much, if anything, from them.

Himmler
11-09-2008, 11:21 PM
himmler, are u in the 3d industry? at all? you argue with someone, who for certain knows millions more, millions more experience etc etc. what a fail. anyway, that note aside, both parties involved in that vein of discussion seem to forget, its personal choice. do tutorials. dont do tutorials. just dont act like your opinion is fact. BUT when i see someone 1 million ^ 2 times better then me, my ears prick up cos im sure they can help me learn more, faster. i dont get defensive lol

Seriously i never and still mean no offense with what i say, I just like to question anything and everything, even if i am wrong :) It is a flaw.


You're missing the point. Getting a dollar for a model sold on a site frequented by hacks isn't really an achievement at all. Get a freelance client and charge them R3000 a day to model something, and then you know you're a decent modeler.


What is the best way for a new comer to get these freelance contracts? And what companies (type of companies) take in freelance modelers? Would it be the end client, or studios handling these accounts?

Also, do studios head hunt personnel? If they do, what do they use to find the modelers they need, I.E. websites to find portfolios ect.

P.S. I do not consider myself to be a great 3d modeler, but i can handle the software for what i need atm. Plus i try and keep myself busy with something challenging to at least learn something with each model i make.

onona
11-09-2008, 11:28 PM
What is the best way for a new comer to get these freelance contracts?

By having a **** hot reel. Although, the figure I mentioned above can only really be demanded by someone with a **** hot CV to back up the reel.


And what companies (type of companies) take in freelance modelers? Would it be the end client, or studios handling these accounts?

Both, although studios tend to be more reliable. In SA, there is a fair amount of work in the visual effects industry (especially for television commercials), and architectural previz. There is a small game industry as well.


Also, do studios head hunt personnel? If they do, what do they use to find the modelers they need, I.E. websites to find portfolios ect.

Sometimes, although I don't think headhunting happens a lot in SA, since the scene there isn't huge. Having a website with your work is pretty much essential these days.

Himmler
11-09-2008, 11:44 PM
If you have time, and if you like, could you look at the "products" i got at Turbosquid, and let me know if they are of any worth, and if I'm heading in the right direction? Any critic is use full, even if you say it is utter crap :)

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/397592
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/395951
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/397221
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/397590
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/397591
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/420196

If this is against the forum rules in any way, please let me know, and ill delete the post ASAP.

onona
12-09-2008, 12:50 AM
To be honest, they're not bad, but they're not really all that exciting. To be really blunt, the spaceship is typical beginner level stuff - the design is a bit uninspired, and the modeling could have been a lot more interesting and detailed. It suffers from an overly moulded look, and looks like it's a single piece of geometry, which doesn't really make sense in terms of construction as we know it (in other words, it seems unlikely that a craft would be constructed as a single piece - even though it's a sci-fi model, you need to keep some level of realism in terms of design, in order to achieve believability). The car is okay, but could be tightened a lot more in terms of the modeling, and the rendering needs a lot of improvement (the car paint shader needs work, and the lighting is flat and very unflattering). It's hard to really critique the low poly stuff as low poly work is not my field, and I am not particularly clued up regarding current poly count standards and such. The textures (which I do know a thing or two about), however, ruin your renders. If you can't texture yet, then don't put poor textures on your models, because it makes them look worse than they are. Keep practising your texture work, but don't put them on your models, especially if you're trying to sell them, until your skill has improved.

Overall, you really need to work on your presentation too. Learn some basic lighting, and composition. Your angles in your renders tend to be a bit boring, and in some cases, quite bad. Learn how to use composition, camera angles and camera lens sizes more effectively, to give more drama and intrigue to your renders.

I hope this helps.

FuzzYspo0N
12-09-2008, 01:40 AM
I agree with what most of what onona said too. I found that slapping in a skylight (in max) and hitting active on the Advanced lighting -> light tracer setting, making the model white, and rendering out a few shots is a lot more sexy then my older half baked texture maps and undetailed texturing :D
Now though,i love rendering so its a lot of things combined, like mentioned, lighting, composition and camera angles.

on the car : Polygons: 600,000

:0 thats madness :) Lucky its not for a game... But yea i like the car mesh.
Which one sold an item btw?
Its a great start though.

Himmler
12-09-2008, 02:48 AM
The Barreta 92s (Older shape) sold one copy. Yes the car has high poly's, wasn't intended for games.

Definitly my texturing and lighting is terrible, and is not at all my strong point ;)

But regarding the actual modeling, i am pleased you find it not too bad. That is what i am concentrating on now, the actual modeling process. I absolutely get what you mean by the ship looking like one piece of geometry.

Thanks

Cyberninja
12-09-2008, 09:40 AM
Onona would you mind criting my work as well? :)

Icenflame
12-09-2008, 11:28 AM
Thanks for the valuable feedback, going to look around for some books and good title's...
I am aware that Modelling and Animations are a whole different ball game, but I thought that I should reacquaint myself with the products available on the market...

do some basic modelling and then move on from their I have more of an interest in animation but correct me if I am wrong with regards to animation wouldn't one have to have extremely solid modelling skills?

I get what you saying about tutorials, but i find them useful from a n00bian perspective because they can assist you in familiarise yourself with the interface and relevant application. I have a pretty decent proficiency in Photoshop, all self taught from tutorials etc but I suppose that's like comparing peaches to pears.

I guess I would have to order in books from the UK or US right? What about the applications I have some old 3D Max installs and I haven't been able to scratch up the financing for the registered Maya and or 3D max products will have to concentrate on that as well. But that is to be finalized at a later stage.

I really appreciate the feedback from you all thanks again

Higushi
12-09-2008, 12:03 PM
do some basic modelling and then move on from their I have more of an interest in animation but correct me if I am wrong with regards to animation wouldn't one have to have extremely solid modelling skills?

I think that if you are a good animator, you are not necessarily a good modeler. Animation is like a whole different field of 3D. In the profession you would probably have no hand in actually modeling the stuff, you'd just be animating the models already made by other professionals in the modeling field.

onona
12-09-2008, 01:01 PM
Onona would you mind criting my work as well? :)

Sure, go ahead. I am sure the others here can give feedback too.



do some basic modelling and then move on from their I have more of an interest in animation but correct me if I am wrong with regards to animation wouldn't one have to have extremely solid modelling skills?

No, not at all. Some of the best animators I know wouldn't even know how to create a cube. Modeling is a good way to get oriented in 3D space, but it is by no means a prerequisite skill to be an animator. Actually, drawing and learning to do 2D animation is probably the best fundamental training for an animator.



I guess I would have to order in books from the UK or US right?

Probably, as I am sure there aren't many available in SA book stores. Try amazon.com/amazon.co.uk.


What about the applications I have some old 3D Max installs and I haven't been able to scratch up the financing for the registered Maya and or 3D max products will have to concentrate on that as well. But that is to be finalized at a later stage.

Well, personally I am really against any use of unlicensed software, so I'd recommend you pony up the cash for some, but ultimately that's up to you. Most software vendors do offer educational discounts, but many of them require you to be a registered student. There are also many free applications available, although frankly you're better off learning industry standard software if you're intending to do this for a living. And that means learning Max or Maya, to maximise your attractiveness to future potential employers.

Icenflame
12-09-2008, 02:34 PM
Well, personally I am really against any use of unlicensed software, so I'd recommend you pony up the cash for some, but ultimately that's up to you. Most software vendors do offer educational discounts, but many of them require you to be a registered student. There are also many free applications available, although frankly you're better off learning industry standard software if you're intending to do this for a living. And that means learning Max or Maya, to maximise your attractiveness to future potential employers.

I tend to take the same stance when it comes to software except Microsoft products then I shall steal them all!!! I joke i joke!!! yeah will have to work out a financing plan moving forward not like I have a spear 14K lying around but one must do what one must...

Will get to it straight away and then can be criticised. Thanks once again... sheesh i gotta stop saying that :p but thank you... DOH!

onona
12-09-2008, 02:39 PM
yeah will have to work out a financing plan moving forward not like I have a spear 14K lying around but one must do what one must...

Heh, you think 14k is bad? Around six years or so ago, a license of Softimage XSI cost in the region of R120,000 per license. Things have, thankfully, changed.

dislekcia
12-09-2008, 03:16 PM
Heh, you think 14k is bad? Around six years or so ago, a license of Softimage XSI cost in the region of R120,000 per license. Things have, thankfully, changed.

Yeah. Licensing was a huge cost back when I was doing VR stuff... The simulation engine we were using cost $35000 per seat per year. And we still needed max on top of that :(

Rooi
12-09-2008, 03:40 PM
yeah will have to work out a financing plan moving forward not like I have a spear 14K lying around but one must do what one must...


PLE... nuff said.

FuzzYspo0N
12-09-2008, 03:46 PM
PLE LOL! i like the ability to export, sadly. :P

Cyberninja
12-09-2008, 04:24 PM
Sure, go ahead. I am sure the others here can give feedback too.



Awesome! Thank you! :D

I'll start a new thread in a few days time. Still very noob-ish at this, so any help/criticism will be appreciated. Thanks again. :)

FuzzYspo0N
12-09-2008, 11:03 PM
Sweet, CN. cant wait to see.im actually gonna be working more on my map for that trolley game this weekend, for texturing and lighting...so i will post in my old thread, should it come to it :)

maxdamage
13-09-2008, 01:27 AM
People who are studying to be chefs study ingredients, and how to use them together effectively.

Frankly I see step-by-step modeling tutorials as spoon-feeding. They teach you to follow a set of instructions, instead of actually teaching you how to model. There are plenty of websites and books and other learning materials out there that teach theory and concepts and techniques, without resorting to numbered, step-by-step recipes that ultimately don't benefit an artist very much.


Well When I was still doing some part time 3D modelling I once used a tutorial from abetterspace.com (http://www.abetterspace.com) and modified it abit for use in milkshaped 3d.It was the one on how to create a B5 EA shuttle in Lightwave 3D.Most of my models need to be re-texture mapped as milkshape does a bad job at it which is why I need Lightwave 3D to re-texture map them and then I need Maya 3D v3.0 so I can import them into HW2 format... :( I have a small gallery of some of the ships I have made at facebook and if anyone is interested I could post the link here?

Higushi
13-09-2008, 10:49 AM
I have a small gallery of some of the ships I have made at facebook and if anyone is interested I could post the link here?

You shouldn't think twice about it! Throw us the linky. :)

maxdamage
15-09-2008, 10:53 PM
You shouldn't think twice about it! Throw us the linky. :)

Heres the link:3D models I have made(Warning:Some Big Pics) (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=7906&l=e36af&id=580278662)

onona
16-09-2008, 12:15 AM
Heres the link:3D models I have made(Warning:Some Big Pics) (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=7906&l=e36af&id=580278662)

Bearing in mind that I am not really into sci-fi (odd for a CG artist, I know) and therefore am not that familiar with many of the craft you've modeled, one thing that really sticks out as a small problem with your models are the hard edges everywhere. I'm not sure whether your intention was for low poly models, but if not, you should start bevelling your edges for a more realistic look. This is not only more realistic in terms of topology, but also creates a more pleasing look in the shader, as you have edges that catch specular highlights and such. Also, be careful of simply aligning primitive shapes together to form details - think about how the surfaces of each part should interact with one another, and edit them as such.

There is a mention on the page of the need to re-texture: this is definitely needed as the textures are very weak. This is something that is worth taking the time to do properly. Texturing is so much more than simply applying patterns to a model - it's a process of thinking about the surface, deciding on appropriate detailing (and the scale and complexity of those details), and working to get a believable look. Once you can get them into a decent renderer, you'll be able to set up nice shaders and lighting rigs to really show them off properly.

I have some tutorials about texturing on my website here (http://www.leighvanderbyl.com/tutorials.html) (especially the "dummies" one), that you may find useful. Good luck!

maxdamage
16-09-2008, 01:14 AM
Bearing in mind that I am not really into sci-fi (odd for a CG artist, I know) and therefore am not that familiar with many of the craft you've modeled, one thing that really sticks out as a small problem with your models are the hard edges everywhere. I'm not sure whether your intention was for low poly models, but if not, you should start bevelling your edges for a more realistic look. This is not only more realistic in terms of topology, but also creates a more pleasing look in the shader, as you have edges that catch specular highlights and such. Also, be careful of simply aligning primitive shapes together to form details - think about how the surfaces of each part should interact with one another, and edit them as such.

There is a mention on the page of the need to re-texture: this is definitely needed as the textures are very weak. This is something that is worth taking the time to do properly. Texturing is so much more than simply applying patterns to a model - it's a process of thinking about the surface, deciding on appropriate detailing (and the scale and complexity of those details), and working to get a believable look. Once you can get them into a decent renderer, you'll be able to set up nice shaders and lighting rigs to really show them off properly.

I have some tutorials about texturing on my website here (http://www.leighvanderbyl.com/tutorials.html) (especially the "dummies" one), that you may find useful. Good luck!


As I mentioned at the gallery I need Lightwave 3D to finish all of my ships as the one ship which is a B5 Shadow Battlecrab at about 20138 faces can only be finished in Lightwave 3D due to a plug-in that only comes in Lightwave 3D which is needed to create the shadow skin texture.When done most of my ships will be used in HW2.

Most of my ship's detail range from about 3000 faces to about 20138 faces......Been thinking of getting Hexagon 3D v1.2 but I don't know if it is a good 3D program and that I'll be able to use use it?Haven't touched the trial version I have of Milkshape 3D in which I created those ships but it doesn't texture map very well.

onona
16-09-2008, 01:26 AM
Thanks for the reply but as I mention I need Lightwave 3D to finish all of my ships as the one ship which is a B5 Shadow Battlecrab at about 20138 faces can only be finished in Lightwave 3D due to a plug-in that only comes in Lightwave 3D which is needed to create the shadow skin texture.

Could you explain a little more about this? I don't see why you'd need a specific package to create a look. If you know how to do textures and shaders, you can create whatever you need in any package. Having said that, Lightwave is one of the cheaper packages (I actually used to own a license of it many years ago, but broke my dongle accidentally and never bothered getting it replaced), and is extremely easy to use, so if you want a renderer that's really easy to get to grips with, I would recommend it. I believe they've just recently updated the software, and I am sure you could get your hands on a trial version from Newtek's site.


Most of my ship's detail range from about 3000 faces to about 20138 faces......Been thinking of getting Hexagon 3D v1.2 but I don't know if it is a good 3D program and that I'll be able to use use it?Haven't touched the trial version I have of Milkshape 3D in which I created those ships but it doesn't texture map very well.

Now now, don't blame your software for the textures ;-) If an application can unwrap a model's UV's, then that's all you need it to do - the rest is up to you. It's the artist, not the tool, which makes all the difference.

I haven't used Hexagon myself, so I have no opinion of it, but you might want to investigate something like Blender, which is free, and a full 3D authoring suite (I've never actually used it myself either, but it's certainly rather popular). Another cheaper package which is really easy to use is Cinema 4D, which also has a relatively robust 3D painting module, which I use daily. It makes the whole problem of tackling texture seams on 3D models much less of a hassle.

maxdamage
16-09-2008, 01:57 AM
Could you explain a little more about this? I don't see why you'd need a specific package to create a look. If you know how to do textures and shaders, you can create whatever you need in any package. Having said that, Lightwave is one of the cheaper packages (I actually used to own a license of it many years ago, but broke my dongle accidentally and never bothered getting it replaced), and is extremely easy to use, so if you want a renderer that's really easy to get to grips with, I would recommend it. I believe they've just recently updated the software, and I am sure you could get your hands on a trial version from Newtek's site.


Now now, don't blame your software for the textures ;-) If an application can unwrap a model's UV's, then that's all you need it to do - the rest is up to you. It's the artist, not the tool, which makes all the difference.

I haven't used Hexagon myself, so I have no opinion of it, but you might want to investigate something like Blender, which is free, and a full 3D authoring suite (I've never actually used it myself either, but it's certainly rather popular). Another cheaper package which is really easy to use is Cinema 4D, which also has a relatively robust 3D painting module, which I use daily. It makes the whole problem of tackling texture seams on 3D models much less of a hassle.


If I remember correctly theres a fractal plug-in that suppose to come with Lightwave 3D thats the only plug-in been able to create the shadow skin\hull texture.Thats what I havebeen told.Afaik milkshape has no support for uv wrapping and unwrapping.I am still learning to create textures but I have no clue on how to create the necessary shaders.....I use PSP 8(full) to create the textures,etc....

onona
16-09-2008, 02:03 AM
If I remember correctly theres a fractal plug-in that suppose to come with Lightwave 3D thats the only plug-in been able to create the shadow skin\hull texture.

Well I've never watched Babylon 5, so I don't know what the surface is supposed to look like, but if you could post some pics, I could figure out a good way to create it in any application.


thats all I know.Afaik milkshape has no support for uv wrapping and unwrapping.

That's pretty ridicuous :/


I am still learning to create textures but I have no clue on how to create the necessary shaders.....I use PSP 8(full) to create the textures,etc....

Well, that's why it's worth taking the time to learn the theory behind it, so you can develop a better sense of how to approach any texturing challenge. As I mentioned earlier, i have some beginner's tutorials on my website, and you can find other info on the web. Bear in mind that you can't really learn this stuff overnight - it does take a fair bit of work, so prepare yourself.

maxdamage
16-09-2008, 02:24 AM
Heres the image of a B5 Shadowbattlecrab (http://news.tgu.org.uk/maxdamage/HW2B5/wallpaper/Shadow.jpg)

onona
16-09-2008, 02:27 AM
Haha, that actually looks like a Lightwave render. Yeah, that is a cellular procedural texture that actually comes standard with the software. However, you could paint that by hand if you wanted to.

maxdamage
16-09-2008, 02:50 AM
Haha, that actually looks like a Lightwave render. Yeah, that is a cellular procedural texture that actually comes standard with the software. However, you could paint that by hand if you wanted to.


Tried making my own version of the shadow skin but it did not come out right but once I have created the ships textures I still have to create specular,paralax textures(advanced form of bump mapping),etc... for HW2 as well as the shaders for HW 2 have been modified to be better graphically.Parralax Mapping for HW2 (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=191015) and http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=2980427#post2980427

dislekcia
16-09-2008, 03:13 AM
OH! It's a game pipeline compatibility thing... Now I get it.

Himmler
16-09-2008, 04:29 PM
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v318/176/85/1274695339/n1274695339_105059_6694.jpg

I took your advice, and had a hard look at scene setup. I do think i am improving, what do you think?

B.T.W ill pump out a full render probably tommorow or the day after.

Thaumaturge
16-09-2008, 11:49 PM
Maxdamage, that texture looks a lot like Voronoi noise to me (although the image is perhaps a little dark for me to be greatly confident), which Blender would seem to be able to produce - have you tried that? You might even be able to find an appropriate exporter to Homeworld's format (although that is a guess).

maxdamage
17-09-2008, 02:02 AM
Maxdamage, that texture looks a lot like Voronoi noise to me (although the image is perhaps a little dark for me to be greatly confident), which Blender would seem to be able to produce - have you tried that? You might even be able to find an appropriate exporter to Homeworld's format (although that is a guess).

Firstly I haven't tried Blender and the plug-ins that export the 3d models with the animation into HW2 format require Maya 3D v3.0 or if I use the recompiled version either Maya 3D v6.0 or 6.5.... not sure exactly which one though.There is a 3rd party prog that exports 3d models into HW2 format but there are no tutorials for it atm. :(

Himmler
21-09-2008, 07:08 PM
Hi again,

Please have a look at these 2 renders and let me know if it is any good, and any ideas to improve on it.

It took me now a total of a week to create.


http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v335/176/85/1274695339/n1274695339_108674_2393.jpg

http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v335/176/85/1274695339/n1274695339_108675_2727.jpg

Thanks in advance.

Azimuth
21-09-2008, 07:16 PM
The silver on the rims looks really overexposed, and the lack of geometry in the car's interior is somewhat conspicuous, considering the angles you've chosen. There's also something odd going on with that moulded indentation below the doors. The texturing on the walls doesn't match in the corner (tsktsk), and it's a little too blurry in comparison to the sharpness of the render elsewhere. Obviously you want a softer focus in the background, but it's too soft right now.

FuzzYspo0N
21-09-2008, 09:37 PM
i agree with the above, but the one thing thats come along nicely is the lighting. Materials are key in renders... The background is all out of sync, and the uvs are screwed (which would be easy to fix). Try a color with more diffuse and less specular,like a straight white color, while adjusting the background and getting the scene down, and then start putting materials on the car. As said, it looks fresh out the pot of liquid mercury which,might be funky but its far from good looking (imo) :P

otherwise, its great progress

Himmler
24-09-2008, 09:19 PM
K, so i have done some changes again, this would be my final post on this scene, i hope to start something new next week, and would appreciate feedback on this and that when i do it. Thanks in advance, and for all the suggestions and help given.

http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v335/176/85/1274695339/n1274695339_111700_8328.jpg

http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v335/176/85/1274695339/n1274695339_111698_7757.jpg

FuzzYspo0N
25-09-2008, 10:08 AM
Thats way way better. Its great to see progress.

1) Im not sure why but the reflections look wavey, like the mesh is warped
2) The wheels are identically rotated, this breaks a bit of the realism cos that hardly ever happens.
3) The less shiny is better, though the background lighting gives it a plastic feel

Although, this is a huge huge huge improvement.
And i think its awesome moving onto something else, when you get leeter as you go you can always come back and do other things to the renders of these

Azimuth
25-09-2008, 11:52 AM
There's one very serious issue with the render, and it's especially noticeable in the second image. The road texture is bigger than the car, and gives the impression that the car is a miniature.

onona
25-09-2008, 12:13 PM
Yeah the road texture really makes the car look miniature - change that ASAP. Your car paint shader still needs a lot of work. The specular and reflection, in particular, is incorrect for car paint. I'd recommend you download some car shaders from highend3d or something, and tweak them to your liking. Right now, the car looks like it's made of plastic.

Also, pose the car a bit, by rotating the front wheels slightly or something like that. It'll give a bit more action to the renders.

Himmler
25-09-2008, 02:40 PM
Cool stuff guys, honostly, if you guys havent pushed me to improve it that much it wouldn't have been the "quality" it is now. I am going to end this model here and start a 76 Chevvy GMC truck. I am going to try and recreate a photo of a mod truck i found.

Thanks for all the advice, and ill check in when i get the model to something to look at.

Gen0cyde
01-10-2008, 01:27 PM
That car looks pretty awsome. The lighting is a bit dark, why not either use another color for the car or change the background lighting to something so that I can see the whole car and not just the reflection.
Other than that, brilliant job.

I have been playing around at work lately with some models, just recently made a background (for fun, dont hate me for it) and this model of one of our Pilot plants, take a look so and tell me what you think, onona you know I want you to give me some crit, just like old times!

:P
Rubiks wars!
Yes, they are finally coming to take us all out, their first wave of attack is hitting us at weak spots, basic puzzle solving. Those bastards.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s114/free-frag/Rubikswars.jpg

Mobile Gold Test Rig
Thats all Im allowed to say on what it is, its not finished yet, I still want to make cable racks + cables, I need to mount the oxygen cylinders that I have modeled and I need to fix my plugs on the other side. I have more angles of it if you want. Basic colors on the models, no real textures.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s114/free-frag/rigprogrss6jpg.jpg

Let me know what you think. :)

Darcnyss
02-10-2008, 01:20 PM
Below are two renders I have made using 3D Studio Max 7, Poser 7 and Photoshop. Both are from a horror adventure game called Terra Inconito.

This first Image is a wallpaper featuring the two main characters, Sarah and Alex.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/Darcnyss/SarahAlex.png

The second image is from a cutscene, featuring a vampire and victim.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/Darcnyss/TerraVamp.png

Gen0cyde, that Rubiks Wars image looks pretty cool, by the way.

BlackCid
02-10-2008, 02:26 PM
internships are possible but none are vacant right now so make your our way in ,I reckon