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BlackShipsFillt
03-12-2010, 12:34 PM
Oooh oooh! I have noticed that there is a IDGa.co.za!

I have noticed that there is not a IGDA American Website, New Zealand Website, a German website, a Australian website, a French Website, nor a Canadian website.

However there is a UK website! http://www.igda.co.uk/

FuzzYspo0N
03-12-2010, 02:43 PM
Glad you noticed!
There is also a facebook page, a twitter account, youtube channel and linkedIn profile.
Get joining!

The igda.co.za home page will be going up soon (hopefully later today), and will feed and redirect all news for our chapters into the hands and newsletters, magazines and twitter feeds of the igda organisation.

BlackShipsFillt
03-12-2010, 04:52 PM
I don't want to be a downer, but is it okay to take the domain "www.igda.co.za" ? (surely that is something for the IGDA itself, or official representatives of the IGDA to possess)

I think it will be awesome to have a place to coordinate all the future awesomeness from. But I don't know what the IGDA guidelines are for the naming of such a place. (although igda.co.za is a super useful/logical domain to have for such a place)

dislekcia
03-12-2010, 05:08 PM
I think the plan is to have folders/subdomains for each of the chapters in SA on the .co.za domain AFAIK. Given the way the IGDA works, surely individual chapters ARE official representatives?

BlackShipsFillt
03-12-2010, 05:34 PM
Well, it is a good name for the site, and I trust Fuzzy with it. (that subfolder thing sounds like a sweet system)

I see Japan does have a IGDA.jp.

FuzzYspo0N
04-12-2010, 12:13 AM
Yep, i was talking directly to community manager. He gave me the ok on anything i do do, and everything they want us to do is in official capacity.

We decided an umbrella was best, It gives them more chance of promoting all of us at once, more often. And also makes it less management to promote our stuff internationally. No hunting and digging. Rather than fragments across multiple timelines, Each time 1 thing of ours hits the news, all things are brought to the media. Where do i get that south africa game jam game? i remember! etc.

FuzzYspo0N
04-12-2010, 12:15 AM
Out of interest, i am currently uploading the new home page there.

Its up, http://www.igda.co.za

xyber
04-12-2010, 10:55 AM
I don't want to be a downer, but is it okay to take the domain "www.igda.co.za" ? (surely that is something for the IGDA itself, or official representatives of the IGDA to possess) ...

Consider this. http://www.igda.co.uk/ sells chicken ;) nom nom nom

BlackShipsFillt
04-12-2010, 08:30 PM
Oooh! Your site Fuzzy is much better looking than the international website (IGDA.org)!

But what will become of SaGameDev and GameDevSa... it seems that this is another website that fills a very similar function (displaying South African Game Development and coordinating events), and there are threats of a Game.Dev site returning. IGDA.co.za is tied to an international organisation, and, while at the moment it doesn't have all the functions of GameDevSa, it sounds like it may receive many of those functions. (I haven't checked SaGameDev in a while I have no idea what is going on there). I'm not making any predictions, things may just continue in fractured parallels, it just seems like a bit of a weird community. If I were to make a prediction it would be that something is going to die now that IGDA.co.za exists, and that will be more true the better you make the website Fuzzy.

Also it would be really cool if the Game.Dev prototyping competitions got involved with, or blessed by, the IGDA.co.za site, as I am hoping that the IGDA will have a little more penetration into the universities than the other communities.

dislekcia
04-12-2010, 08:56 PM
Well, the IGDA is representative, so the local chapters will do what we as members tell them to do :)

For all intents and purposes, the IGDA site has eaten Game.Dev, maintaining a separate site just doesn't make any sense - it's not like we're trying to fracture things on purpose, we're simply partnering with something that's bigger than us and can be a great help. I can't speak for the other sites, but I do hope that everyone involved in them will join the local IGDA chapters. It's not like any local sites have to disappear or anything.

FuzzYspo0N
04-12-2010, 09:55 PM
Im glad someone brought this up. Dislekcia and I and others have been speaking about the game.dev site and its purposes for some time in general. The IGDA offers so much more than we possibly could - with the only weight on us being participation. Participation in what you ask? Making games.

Does this mean the community dies? No. It just means we represent something much more than we could have with no international backing. The whole purpose of the site is to unify and become better and stronger and far more focused on games.

The more games we can make the less rubbish we have to put up with from 'fractures' and 'cultures'. I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone else does. As for me, and the other people i know that want to take game development seriously on an international indie and commercial level - This is by far the best direction i can see. Even if i do it alone. You either fight with us for an industry in this country and get noticed internationally or you keep your head down and die. Preferably the latter if your goals are not making games that get noticed by the world.

On a more positive note :
This DEFINITELY includes competitions (international too), frequent meetups and socials, support and coverage from IGDA in many forms etc.

To be brief the short term plans for IGDA.co.za include the following :

Archives : Everything South African game devs have released that can be downloaded and played.
Showcase : Post your games and prototypes here. No empty promises, no design docs, no mockups. Games and playables only.
Spotlight : Monthly/weekly spotlights on games, articles, prototypes and developers.
Logs : Similar to sites like ludumdare, a common posting system is shared amongst devs. All work in progress and development logs can be posted here for feedback / ideas / discussion. The discussion system will be tailored to suite the logs, in other words its not just a dump in a long list - its a feedback and iteration loop.

Of course, this is a quick type up. I have a full roadmap / team / concept and structure in place that i will present at the meet up on the 14th. Stuff like merging dev.mag and community contributions are also included.

In other words, it is NOT just another community site. Its not a new community. It is not a new group of elitest branded cliques.

IGDA.co.za is the international face of all communities, developers and games made here, by us.

dislekcia
04-12-2010, 10:09 PM
This is why we <3 Fuzzy. He actually does a good job :)

(Unlike me, I just sort of arb about a lot)

Chippit
04-12-2010, 10:18 PM
This is why we <3 Fuzzy. He actually does a good job :)

(Unlike me, I just sort of arb about a lot)
icwutudidthar.

BlackShipsFillt
04-12-2010, 10:37 PM
I wasn't suggesting that the South African Game Development community dies... nothing like that... simply that there aren't enough developers in the small South African Game Development industry to sustain 4 online communities. It just doesn't make sense.

I totally feel that IGDA is the right way to go, and I'm really glad to hear Disleksia is letting Game.Dev to fall to it (because more people can receive Game.Dev content, and more can be achieved, if Game.Dev works through the IGDA, as apposed to competing with it).

There has been this weird competitiveness, or at least separateness, between the online communities in this country, and I'm hoping, like you say Fuzzy, that this time we can get everyone to unite and work together and win.

What I want to see from the IGDA site (and what I feel is missing from the other showcase websites) is: competitions and community events. I want to see junior developers participating and prototyping and getting and offering feedback. Even if it is just encouragement to enter Ludumdare's and Great Game Experiments and Game Jams, that sort of experience is going to amplify the chances of super-successful games being made in this country.

The other thing I really want to see is some more incentive for artists, animators, writers and musicians to join the IGDA. Too often development communities (which are typically run by programmers) ignore them (TIGSource being a notable exception) and only call on their talents as and when a programmer needs them. This isn't so much a problem at a professional level, but at an amateur level input from people other than programmers is sorely lacking. I would suggest (as a start) having some best art, best animation and best sound categories added to forthcoming competitions (like the Game Jam and Prototyping #1). I would also love to see some competitions similar to the TIGsource ones (where they do totally separate competitions for graphics and music and then get developers to combine them into games), though logistically this may not be feasible.

FuzzYspo0N
04-12-2010, 10:58 PM
Stop bringing points up out of my agenda! How did you get my notes! :)

Competitions will include things like art as well (and design, etc). I am bringing some artists to the meetup with me, and because I am involved in teaching art at the open window they will definitely be urged to get involved to all extents they can.

BlackShipsFillt
04-12-2010, 11:05 PM
Nice! :)

I think I am going to petition Edg3 that maybe sound and art (art in particular) and maybe even animation could be mentioned in the 48hr prototyping challenge... it just makes sense.

We've got some weak-ties with some of the animation schools, and I've got some weak-ties with AnimationSA, so once things are little further along maybe them (and their students/members) can be brought on board. It will help if there are categories like art, animation and sound so that they can see exactly where they can fit in and can see clear benefits in joining (i.e. recognition, which often leads to money).

FuzzYspo0N
04-12-2010, 11:18 PM
Yea, awesome.

There is the option to host the competition on IGDA page, get other communities involved.
If i had it my way, i would even open it to other international communities.
There are a handful of prototyping challenges, http://gameprototypechallenge.com/ is one, Ludumdare is another (ffs stop putting them all on the same weekend people).

It would be great to present the competition via the main igda news - getting into the global sphere immediately (moving it maybe to the second week of jan) and making it a standalone international competition. There are resources and people available to edg3 and the community to aid in judging, promoting and presenting the competition. Making banners, short trailer for the competition. Its all right here in our community, we already have all the tools we need.

Edit : in a sense we need our own competitions, but we need to be aiming as high as everyone else in this. Why are we not bothering to compete internationally in these existing competitions? :)

BlackShipsFillt
04-12-2010, 11:40 PM
I'm personally quite happy for Game.Dev competitions to be international... What I really want out of them is that South Africans get involved... and South Africans see other South Africans who are getting involved and so might team up and do awesome things together...

Maybe that is a bit near-sighted (the over-concern with South African stuff)... I can't really guess what the effects of local versus international are... I think the main thing is that the IGDA.co.za site advertise these competitions, and take special interest when South Africans enter...

Eg. A student who is a member of the IGDA.co.za enters Ludumdare... and so the IGDA.co.za keeps track of the entry and it is visible to other South Africans (and so some will probably cheer for that student)... That would be really awesome... I suppose what I am imagining is a Competitions section that lists competitions and allows IGDA.co.za members to register their entries with it. That would encourage South Africans to enter these competitions as well as allow companies/employers to keep track of up-coming South African developers.

Offtopic: This is a fairly fluffy suggestion... And I know some people might be outright against it... But could there be some element of leveling to the website... what I mean is that members can earn points by participating, providing feedback, entering things and, especially, posting games... But I think this is one of the things that Game.Dev is against, so I don't really expect it. I do like the feeling of displaying a history with a online community... though I understand also the reasons behind objections to it.

dislekcia
04-12-2010, 11:58 PM
Blackships, you arrived at the Game.Dev forums after the regular competitions stopped because I got too busy to run them. I still feel really crap about that, seeing as those competitions did the most to grow devs and create games locally than pretty much anything else so far.

As much as I like the idea of pushing locals to compete in international competitions and events (heck, the GGJ is one of the highlights of my year) I do realise that a lot of first time and new devs are going to be intimidated by competitions where they feel they might be found wanting. The local comps really helped people get over those first few experience hurdles to the point where those that were growing as devs wanted to participate internationally. I think we need both. I know that as soon as my time is less constrained, I'll probably start organising comps again - I like seeing how people deal with the constraints I give and it's always fun seeing the games that emerge from them ;)

Plus, I really don't think we (or anyone else) needs to be worried about "too many local development communities". That whole "this is my community, that's yours" thing is bull****. Bull**** that I know that the IGDA is beyond: Hence Fuzzy's focus on results and direct outputs. That's something that I believe stems from how Game.Dev has evolved. In the end, if people insist that the local IGDA chapters are "competing" with their little fiefdoms, then that's a problem with their own perspective. I certainly don't see anything competing with Game.Dev, if it helps people make games, awesome - all I've ever noticed are that some people seem incredibly hostile to the ideas of meritocracy and collaboration. Too bad for them, y'know?

dislekcia
05-12-2010, 12:04 AM
Eg. A student who is a member of the IGDA.co.za enters Ludumdare... and so the IGDA.co.za keeps track of the entry and it is visible to other South Africans (and so some will probably cheer for that student)... That would be really awesome... I suppose what I am imagining is a Competitions section that lists competitions and allows IGDA.co.za members to register their entries with it. That would encourage South Africans to enter these competitions as well as allow companies/employers to keep track of up-coming South African developers.

Is there any reason that a student that enters a competition couldn't post something like that themselves? Sort of like how the comp entry threads worked here?


Offtopic: This is a fairly fluffy suggestion... And I know some people might be outright against it... But could there be some element of leveling to the website... what I mean is that members can earn points by participating, providing feedback, entering things and, especially, posting games... But I think this is one of the things that Game.Dev is against, so I don't really expect it. I do like the feeling of displaying a history with a online community... though I understand also the reasons behind objections to it.

Why would "Game.Dev" be against that sort of thing? Are you sure you're not confusing forum rules (which I no longer have any control over, BTW) with nebulous policy? I do reckon that regular posters on this sub-forum have reputations built on the things they've released, but that's not a concrete or trackable phenomenon. We tried setting up something similar by encouraging locals to use the Great Games Experiment, but that never really seemed to catch on... If you can figure out a way for that sort of tracking to be done that doesn't require much effort, then I think you'll be on to something of a winning idea :)

P.S. My bad for the double post, this thread is growing pretty fast.

FuzzYspo0N
05-12-2010, 10:23 AM
Just to clarify, I think the local competitions are super important as well - but at what point are we just a dot on a map isolated from the international movement that is indie game dev. Why are none of our devs on indie games podcast? No presence.

It should be balanced but we can't stay inside our fences anymore.
We shouldn't need to go and advertise our games explicitly promoting them per se, it should be an extension of our presence. You want people to be excited about your next release and not stumble upon it on some news thread you posted.

xyber
05-12-2010, 11:01 AM
I wasn't suggesting that the South African Game Development community dies... nothing like that... simply that there aren't enough developers in the small South African Game Development industry to sustain 4 online communities. It just doesn't make sense. ,...

Just wanna mention that GameDev.SA (http://www.gamedevsa.com/) is not a community site really. I tried to make it one before and it did not work out, so now it is more of a blog with lotsa extras thrown in, like the links to the 2 community forums' posts, archive of what have been done in SA, listing events and jobs, etc.

Will IGDA ZA have forums too or must we still turn to this one and the one over at SAGD?

FuzzYspo0N
05-12-2010, 12:21 PM
I'm Hoping not to repeat everything each new page on this thread :p simply put, communities can do whatever it is they want. IGDA site has no forums, it is a representative of all combined communities from all forums. It serves all communities.

Tbh, the forums are a bit of a thorn in Internet activity. There are too many, too much effort. There are many really motivated and sponsored forums out there. To me, the FUNCTION of the forums matters most. Competitions , feedback etc. That will be Handled by IGDA site, as well as helping communities tell each other about there stuff, while showing it all to the rest of the world

dislekcia
05-12-2010, 02:17 PM
TBH, I'd be totally keen to move these forums over to the IGDA.co.za site. It's proving difficult to get all our existing content though :(

BlackShipsFillt
05-12-2010, 02:51 PM
I think Dislekcia, who has the experience, has a point about local comps. Having local ones sets the bar enticingly low for new devs.


Is there any reason that a student that enters a competition couldn't post something like that themselves? Sort of like how the comp entry threads worked here?

There is no good reason why a student wouldn't. But creating a special outlet for that sort of behavior may provide a gentle push. If the student is entering a 48hr competition he/she may not want to be displayed next to Luma's next big game. It's that thing you said about being a bit intimidated when competing on a stage where they know they are going to lose. Also, beyond providing a friendly context for indies and new devs (because it is not inconceivable that in a couple years the IGDA.co.za is going to be crowded out by updates to projects the scope of The Harvest), having a Competitions section will give greater attention to the competitions and those who choose to compete.

Of course IGDA.co.za does not need a competitions section (but I think it would be a very indie-dev friendly place and would remain so even after lots of biggish games are being released in SA).

It depends how IGDA evolves and who uses it. It would be nice to get a lot of students posting, but they won't post as much if the larger companies set the bar too high. A Competitions section doesn't actually solve that problem, if it arrises.


Why would "Game.Dev" be against that sort of thing?

In actual fact I am confusing Game.Dev with the forum rules :P

xyber
05-12-2010, 05:38 PM
TBH, I'd be totally keen to move these forums over to the IGDA.co.za site. It's proving difficult to get all our existing content though :(

But you need a way to get NAG forum visitors to know where these new forums are if that would happen. Don't a lot of gamers find game.dev cause they visit the NAG forums?

GeometriX
06-12-2010, 10:18 AM
From my side, I can set the Game.Dev link on the main page to an external site, and then just archive the current Game.Dev stuff so it's always accessible.

If you use the same format and software for the forums at IGDA, there's a slight chance that vbulletin here will redirect perfectly to the new site, down to individual posts. But at the very least, people will be sent over to IGDA when they click on Game.Dev.

dislekcia
06-12-2010, 11:40 AM
From my side, I can set the Game.Dev link on the main page to an external site, and then just archive the current Game.Dev stuff so it's always accessible.

If you use the same format and software for the forums at IGDA, there's a slight chance that vbulletin here will redirect perfectly to the new site, down to individual posts. But at the very least, people will be sent over to IGDA when they click on Game.Dev.

Well, the Game Dev link on the NAG site is simply a category for articles, it never had anything to do with Game.Dev - you might recall me being annoyed at the use of the dot and asking for that to be changed ;) Linking to the IGDA.co.za site somewhere else on the main page would be neat though, unless the articles currently in your Game Dev category aren't being updated/read anymore? Or did you mean the link on the forum main page?

The idea behind the move would be for me to buy vbulletin and thus not lose content. That's been the transparent reasoning behind me asking for backups of this forum for ages now... Speaking of, can I have backups please?

GeometriX
06-12-2010, 12:21 PM
That Game Dev content on the website has nothing to do with this conversation. I am talking about the main forum page.

I can't do seperate Game.Dev backups from the bulk of the forums. So, I'll repeat: I can archive the Game.Dev stuff here so no content is lost.

That's what's on offer.

dislekcia
06-12-2010, 02:10 PM
That Game Dev content on the website has nothing to do with this conversation. I am talking about the main forum page.

Sorry, I wasn't sure which link you meant.


I can't do seperate Game.Dev backups from the bulk of the forums. So, I'll repeat: I can archive the Game.Dev stuff here so no content is lost.

That's what's on offer.

If you give us a backup of the database, I'm pretty sure that between us all here, we'd figure out a way to rip out the Game.Dev content and convert it to whatever forum system we end up using. Even if it's a quick-and-dirty clone the whole thing and delete subforums that aren't Game.Dev. It's really not tricky from our end... I can understand that you might not want all the NAG content out there, for fear of forum duplication, but that's really not what I'm trying to do. If you need legal stuff stating exactly that, I'd be willing to sign something to the effect that all we're authorised to use would be posts in the Game.Dev subforum.

A forum that's archived is dead. Content has to be live for people to care about it, hence me being kinda annoying about this, I guess.

Chippit
06-12-2010, 02:31 PM
Yeah, it should be a fairly simple matter of filtering out all the other forums. Database software is amazing that way. Shouldn't be hard. We're all programmers here; we'll find a way! Transferring users is a little more complex, I'd imagine, and obviously nobody wants PMs to get traded around, but I'm sure you can remove those yourself.

FuzzYspo0N
06-12-2010, 02:43 PM
Yea if there were rocket science in playing with a DB , we better get some rocket scientists to manage the forums!

On another note, I think a link would be super awesome (or redirect thingy, as mentioned).

dislekcia
06-12-2010, 03:00 PM
On another note, I think a link would be super awesome (or redirect thingy, as mentioned).

Yeah, in a perfect world we'd have a forum with the same topic/thread identifiers as the current one and a redirect on the subforum so that all the external links that point to forum topics on blogs and game news sites could resolve happily. Then again, it's not a perfect world ;)

I reckon we should focus on figuring out IF a move could work (and prototype, cos I never say that!) before we start talking about what should happen here after any hypothetical move happens - that's down to Geo and what he wants to do anyway.