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View Full Version : Art and Fear and relation to Game.Dev



Fengol
18-02-2009, 09:03 AM
Thanks Miktar for the link (http://www.kottke.org/09/02/art-and-fear).

This excerpt from the book Art & Fear (http://www.tedorland.com/books/artandfear.html) exemplifies what I think is the philosophy of Game.Dev.

"The ceramics teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing the class into two groups. All those on the left side of the studio, he said, would be graded solely on the quantity of work they produced, all those on the right solely on its quality. His procedure was simple: on the final day of class he would bring in his bathroom scales and weigh the work of the "quantity" group: fifty pound of pots rated an "A", forty pounds a "B", and so on. Those being graded on "quality", however, needed to produce only one pot -- albeit a perfect one -- to get an "A". Well, came grading time and a curious fact emerged: the works of highest quality were all produced by the group being graded for quantity. It seems that while the "quantity" group was busily churning out piles of work - and learning from their mistakes -- the "quality" group had sat theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of dead clay."

dammit
18-02-2009, 10:04 AM
Thanks for the link. I guess that's motivation for us to churn out piles of mistakes in an attempt to get to perfection. ^_^

dislekcia
18-02-2009, 12:06 PM
If you build more games, you'll build better quality through the tricks you learn the experience you gain :)

Yay for rapid prototyping!

DukeOFprunes
18-02-2009, 03:30 PM
If you build more games, you'll build better quality through the tricks you learn the experience you gain :)

Yay for rapid prototyping!

Yay also for rapid prototyping's caffeinated sibling, rabid prototyping >__<;;;;

HolyMackerel
18-02-2009, 03:48 PM
That makes me think of GTA IV

Great visual quality, but not the quantity that San Andreas has.

Kensei
18-02-2009, 04:06 PM
Wait, so if I make MORE games my chances of making a good game will increase?

:D Seriously though, it is exceptionally true. Good find

FyreWolfe
26-02-2009, 02:15 PM
Thanks for this :)

Miktar
26-02-2009, 07:14 PM
If you build more games, you'll build better quality through the tricks you learn the experience you gain :)

Yay for rapid prototyping!

But, but, SAGameDev told me you should focus all your attention on making on the ONE SINGLE BEST ENGINE TRUE ENGINE TO RULE THEM ALL MORDOR CAKEWALK BETTER THAN QUAKE 3 ENGINE...

Or you're not a REAL Zuid Afrika GAme Deverloparaaarasparta, man.

Kensei
26-02-2009, 07:45 PM
:D

But it is so true? You need to have ONE GREAT ENGINE TO RULE THEM ALL!!!!

Who wants to waste their time on little games that don't do anything except make a tower of goo?

Oh.
Wait.

Fengol
27-02-2009, 09:08 AM
Or you're not a REAL Zuid Afrika GAme Deverloparaaarasparta, man.

Feel the wrath of Canadian lumber fool!

What have they done recently to get the Miktar all upset!?

AndrewJ
27-02-2009, 04:42 PM
Feel the wrath of Canadian lumber fool!

What have they done recently to get the Miktar all upset!?Did you just call Mik a lumberjack (from Monty Python)?

Chippit
27-02-2009, 04:49 PM
Did you just call Mik a lumberjack (from Monty Python)?

Well, he does sleep all night and work all day... Or so the rumour goes.

:P

Fengol
28-02-2009, 12:24 PM
None of you watch Unforgotten Realms (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/unforgotten-realms) do you?

Ramperkash
28-02-2009, 03:36 PM
I have to admit, I've been doing the opposite, but in the one real game I made, I did learn a lot.
Thanks, I'll take heed of this advice.
"Practice makes perfect."

AndrewJ
02-03-2009, 09:06 AM
Ramperkash.Comment++;

tbulford
02-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Interesting Read thanks for that link.

Now I am only scared of how much I still got to learn might be worth while making those mistakes a little faster eh!


SAGameDev told me you should focus all your attention on making on the ONE SINGLE BEST ENGINE ....

I am not sure of the context of what you are talking about but I do think for a team to have an engine of their own even if that?s a framework that builds on top of another and with each project they refine it over and over that it would in effect be exactly what the article means about discovering errors and then learning.

If you rebuilt your game engine with each project that would be more like the group building the single cup.

In effect we made that mistake with Celestial. After Toxic Bunny we threw the engine away and started fresh :( so wish you had directed me to this about 12 years ago :)

Also in respect to this article Linus talked about the some thing with the Linux kernal in that he said the reason they have been so successful is that they allowed themselves to make mistakes and then refactor rather than trying too hard to get everything right the first time.

In life this article is true I guess for most things skydiving been one clear exception.

dislekcia
02-03-2009, 02:02 PM
Interesting Read thanks for that link.

Now I am only scared of how much I still got to learn might be worth while making those mistakes a little faster eh!



I am not sure of the context of what you are talking about but I do think for a team to have an engine of their own even if that?s a framework that builds on top of another and with each project they refine it over and over that it would in effect be exactly what the article means about discovering errors and then learning.

If you rebuilt your game engine with each project that would be more like the group building the single cup.

In effect we made that mistake with Celestial. After Toxic Bunny we threw the engine away and started fresh :( so wish you had directed me to this about 12 years ago :)

Also in respect to this article Linus talked about the some thing with the Linux kernal in that he said the reason they have been so successful is that they allowed themselves to make mistakes and then refactor rather than trying too hard to get everything right the first time.

In life this article is true I guess for most things skydiving been one clear exception.

I'm not too sure that building a new "engine" every game is a bad thing... I mean, very few games share approaches to even simple things like collision detection. Maybe if you're making the same game all the time, then you can look at building an overarching "engine" for the common problems you solve, but how are you going to know what those common problems are the first time you're trying to make a game? Everything is a new problem at that point.

Personally I think the idea of the single, all-powerful "engine" that runs your game is the most damaging concept in game development ever.

tbulford
02-03-2009, 02:20 PM
I am speaking more from the economics point of view really.

A lot of time is spend fixing little bugs and so when you done you have an engine (if build properly) that can be used for another project.

More about building reusable assets was my point. But OFC your next project would be limited to the nature of the technology. That’s possibly a downside.

There is defiantly no single games engine for all things. If there was we could plug our brains into it and it would come up with the right game for our personal mood and needs right there.

AndrewJ
02-03-2009, 02:35 PM
OFC?

Miktar
02-03-2009, 04:05 PM
There is defiantly no single games engine for all things.

Don't tell the UE3 engine that, used for racing games, RTS, puzzlers, pinball, flight simulators, platformers, point-n-click adventures, etc, etc, etc. ;) From a financial standpoint, the Win state is getting nabbed up by a publisher that has a UE3 site-license.

Failing that, your next best bet is to use rapid prototyping to get ideas out that get you hired. Being indie and making your own uber-engine is a waste of time and resources.

Building a framework works, sure, if you're sticking to say - 2D games, aka PopCap, but my earler (tongue in cheek) comments were referring to the notion SAGD has that they should make a Quake 3 engine killer, and then everything else will magically fall into place.

It's a high contrast in approach to game development, Game.Dev vs SAGD. One is about prototyping ideas, the other is about building engines. Perhaps if the two could mate, it'd be perfect - but we're talking about designers getting along with engineers. Nature abhors that.

dislekcia
02-03-2009, 04:32 PM
Don't tell the UE3 engine that, used for racing games, RTS, puzzlers, pinball, flight simulators, platformers, point-n-click adventures, etc, etc, etc. ;) From a financial standpoint, the Win state is getting nabbed up by a publisher that has a UE3 site-license.

Failing that, your next best bet is to use rapid prototyping to get ideas out that get you hired. Being indie and making your own uber-engine is a waste of time and resources.

Building a framework works, sure, if you're sticking to say - 2D games, aka PopCap, but my earler (tongue in cheek) comments were referring to the notion SAGD has that they should make a Quake 3 engine killer, and then everything else will magically fall into place.

It's a high contrast in approach to game development, Game.Dev vs SAGD. One is about prototyping ideas, the other is about building engines. Perhaps if the two could mate, it'd be perfect - but we're talking about designers getting along with engineers. Nature abhors that.

Well, Fengol did ask for a manual with instructions on how to use one of the terminally-pre-release-pending-feature-X engines a few years back. I think that was asking too much - it's not fun to write support documentation ;)

AndrewJ
02-03-2009, 05:02 PM
It's a high contrast in approach to game development, Game.Dev vs SAGD. One is about prototyping ideas, the other is about building engines. Perhaps if the two could mate, it'd be perfectAre there seksi grrrls over there at SAGD? If so, I'll be the first to volunteer for the trial program (providing that they're disease-free of course)!!! ;-)


but we're talking about designers getting along with engineers. Nature abhors that.What happens if we're a bit of both though? Freak of nature? Godzilla? Mutants who live in the sewers of New New York?

It appears that, with my game (http://forums.tidemedia.co.za/nag/showthread.php?t=9027), I'm focussing more on the programming aspect than the design aspect - which might be why it feels that I'm hardly making any progress at all.

dislekcia
02-03-2009, 05:52 PM
It appears that, with my game (http://forums.tidemedia.co.za/nag/showthread.php?t=9027), I'm focussing more on the programming aspect than the design aspect - which might be why it feels that I'm hardly making any progress at all.

Best way to get over that is to have people play your game. You'll see it in a different light and have a lot of new ideas on how to progress :)

Kensei
02-03-2009, 05:54 PM
Are there seksi grrrls over there at SAGD? If so, I'll be the first to volunteer for the trial program (providing that they're disease-free of course)!!! ;-)

There is no such thing as 'seksi grrls' in game Development... just like in gaming in general, they don't exist. :p

Aequitas
02-03-2009, 09:29 PM
There is no such thing as 'seksi grrls' in game Development... just like in gaming in general, they don't exist. :p

THIS IS A LIE!

I have sexy grills (so tender!)

And yeah, using an engine that can "do everything" is ossum, but holy crap, Epic has spent how many years making that?! They still only upgrade the engine to add features for games that they are making. That's why the engine is so good ... not because they sat around making only an engine forever :<

xyber
02-03-2009, 09:43 PM
It's a high contrast in approach to game development, Game.Dev vs SAGD. One is about prototyping ideas, the other is about building engines. Perhaps if the two could mate, it'd be perfect - but we're talking about designers getting along with engineers. Nature abhors that.

Dunno how you figure sagamedev is all about engine dev. Yes there are a few guys working on their own engines like korax, but we would rather tell someone to start by looking at something like game maker, torque, unity3d, etc. before building a whole new engine.


There is no such thing as 'seksi grrls' in game Development... just like in gaming in general, they don't exist. :p

ooh, you are sooo wrong ;)

[edit] .. err, what was this topic about again? :p

Miktar
02-03-2009, 10:48 PM
"but we would rather tell someone to start by looking at something like game maker, torque, unity3d, etc. before building a whole new engine."

That's new to me. Retract my previous statement, then.

AndrewJ
03-03-2009, 12:23 PM
Best way to get over that is to have people play your game. You'll see it in a different light and have a lot of new ideas on how to progress :)Thanks dis.