View Full Version : Game Development Course - Testing the waters...
The_Q?
02-07-2010, 09:49 AM
If someone offered you a game development course that left you with a working game that could run on an XBOX over the course of a two week period, would you be interested?
The game, being XNA framework driven would be able to be run on platforms such as PC and XBOX. If an XBOX was bundled into the course as well, (which you would develop for and have your game running on at the end of two weeks) would it make it more attractive?
It's all still at concept stage at the moment, so don't bank on anything. Based on market response, we'll decide wheter or not to take things forward.
If you want a link to some old concept marketing material, drop me a PM. I wouldn't stick the link in this post, as it would break the forum T&C. :)
Note to MODs:, I respect & F.E.A.R the mods of this site. I take the notion of upholding the T&C quite seriously. I'm not using the NAG forum as a platform to sell anything, I'm merely using it to gauge interest. Thank you. Please don't ban me from the forums. Pretty please? :)
Insomniac
02-07-2010, 11:02 AM
This sounds like a cool idea and could do well if marketed to the right people.
However I think there are a few more things you need to address to get a better response from people.
At what programming level will this be aimed at? What will the schedule be like? Full-time two weeks or evenings only? Will this course just provide a crash course in a specific scenario or will it also teach game dev fundamentals that can springboard people into more serious game development?
Good luck with it and if you plan to run it in Durban and are looking for help give me shout :)
The_Q?
02-07-2010, 04:23 PM
This particular iteration will be aimed at individuals with little to no knowledge of programming. Initial discussions in the office saw the course only including the XNA components, while needing candidates to have at least working knowledge of the .net framework & C#.
As we spoke further I proposed that the first week fast track a student with little to no background in programming to be able to tackle something of this nature. So the first week will be a custom offering to introduce the prerequisites to the candidates, while the 2nd week will tackle the XNA. I suppose someone with the pre-requisite fundamental knowledge can jump into the 2nd week if they so wish.
This does not mean that our offerings will be capped at this iteration of the project. Pending market interest, we may invest in pushing up the level of the offering into a more specialized space (simple terms, yes we might be able to teach it at a higher level, but we must get enough interest from enough people to put a class together at that level).
For the moment, the programme is envisioned as a two week, full time programme. This includes lesson time, labs, etc. We're even thinking of including an international exam or two, in order to properly test understanding. Based on popular demand, we would not be unwilling to run the course on an evening schedule.
The exact nature of the course is subject to a little bit of further research at this point. Yes, some fundamentals are proposed to be covered in the materials we're looking at, but exactly how much content will be around fundamental theory is subject to what I'm doing right now (market research). Actually, based on your response Insomniac, it may seem that the course itself might need to include a larger component of exactly that. :)
As for this course being able to springboard people into more serious game dev, I certainly hope so. Like I said in a paragraph above, that's subject to market response. What I'm doing now is exactly what the post title says: "Testing the waters..."
I've been in the IT Industry for a while now (specifically from an education space) & gaming is my hobby. I was even keenly interested in game development at one stage (having assembled a team & everything, but alas that team met with the same fate that most teams do - it ended rather quickly).
I so want to do this. I've never before been in a place to do so before. Right now I'm in a place where the resources are right. I'm in a place where the skills of the people who surround me are right. The attitudes are right, and the deliverance of promises is real.
All I need to do is prove market demand...
Bonezmann
02-07-2010, 05:44 PM
Sounds like a great idea, only problem is that it wouldn't cater for those of us working during the day. Should this realise, where would you be giving the course?
dINGLE
02-07-2010, 07:44 PM
Sounds interesting. Would the course be focussed on game programming, game design or both?
AndrewJ
05-07-2010, 08:14 AM
Sounds interesting, but...
Bonezmann.Comment++;
The_Q?
05-07-2010, 09:01 AM
Sounds like a great idea, only problem is that it wouldn't cater for those of us working during the day...
Noted. That's why we opened the communcation channel. The one view in the office of our potential candidate for this course was a post-matric student or still schooling student. The scheduling was meant to happen during the school holidays to accomodate them. However, as I've been recieving feedback, it appears that the other view of potential candidate is the individual who works during the day. To meet the needs of this candidate, we are open to running the programme in the evenings & will probably do so based on market response.
...Should this realise, where would you be giving the course?
At this stage, locale is negotiable. We have the capictity to deliver the training anywhere in the country. Without confirming locales at this point, as we are still in the planning stages of the offering, we will be able to offer such a programme in at least the three major cities of South Africa: Gauteng, Druban & Cape Town.
dammit
05-07-2010, 09:06 AM
I think what everyone wants now is more information. We could all say we're interested to some degree (though, personally, i'm not) but certain factors may rule many out.
Firstly, cost. How much would the course cost? Would it cost less if you already own an Xbox? How are you planning on bundling the Xbox with the course (ie: will the boxes be sponsored)?
Secondly, location. I'll happily go ahead an assume you're in JHB where many of the posters reside. Even so, for lots of people in the same province, travelling to whichever area you're in may be problematic.
Finally, I would personally wonder if a two week course is worth my while at all. International exams does make it sound more useful, but would be concerned to spend vast sums of money on a very basic course indeed. I'd much more easily spend money on a longer course.
The_Q?
06-07-2010, 01:17 PM
I think what everyone wants now is more information. We could all say we're interested to some degree (though, personally, i'm not) but certain factors may rule many out.
In order for me to provide more information, I need people to keep posting questions like yours dammit, so I can respond with the information requested. Also, because this project is still in its market research phase, a lot of the questions the forumites ask will end up shaping the product itself. I?d like you all to be aware that this ?course? is still in its ?alpha stage? of development. As such, any piece of information you require needs to be drafted while I respond. Yes, I have the answers;- but not necessarily all the questions. That?s why I?m doing market research :)
Firstly, cost. How much would the course cost?
If I were a potential candidate wanting to attend a course and the amount of money asked for was ridiculous, I myself wouldn?t bother with pursuing anything further with that organization. I can?t give you an actual figure right now, as we haven?t got all the costs down (as we?re still working out exactly what the product is); but what I can give you is an idea of how we price our products (our courses).
Our pricing model as we?ve done business in the past is always ?cost per programme? as opposed to ?cost per candidate?. In other words, if after we?ve worked the costs of instructor, training materials and associated equipment we get a hypothetical figure of lets say R 100 000, then we must recoup that cost from the entire programme itself. In other words, at that figure, a single candidate would pay R 100 000 whereas 10 candidates on the same programme would pay R 10 000 each. Similarly, 20 candidates would only pay R 5000 each. In this way, our costs are covered, without the individual candidates having to bear the brunt.
Our existing client base is quite pleased with our pricing model, and I?m sure you?ll agree that it?s quite a fair way of pricing. When we finally hammer out a figure and it?s out of one?s budget, then you?re more than welcome to not do business with us and we wouldn?t blame you. If we can?t price it affordably, we haven?t done our job well enough.
Would it cost less if you already own an Xbox?
The answer is Yes, but I have to go into some detail. See the answer to the question below?
How are you planning on bundling the Xbox with the course (ie: will the boxes be sponsored)?
The ?bundling? was an idea to make the product more attractive to the market. In reality, the course cost is separate from the xbox cost. We can sell you an xbox at a competitive price (similar to that which you?d pay at any common retailer) if you don?t already have one. The course cost is then separate from the xbox cost.
The xboxes are not sponsored at this point in time as we have not identified any sponsors. If there is anyone out there with the capacity to sponsor xboxes for something like this, we?d be happy to have that discussion. We won?t say no to giving our candidates free xboxes :)
Secondly, location. I'll happily go ahead an assume you're in JHB where many of the posters reside. Even so, for lots of people in the same province, travelling to whichever area you're in may be problematic.
We are not based in JHB, but we?ve always been were our clients have been. Often, our instructors are recruited by organizations in JHB. Provided we have at least a certain no of students in class (let?s say approx. 20 bodies for now), we will have a physical instructor placed in front of that class (In other words; our instructor will be placed in JHB if there is a class to do so). Further to that, we make efficient use of existing technology to deliver our training. Those candidates who wish to join, but are not within the same locale can easily have the training webcast to them live.
So, if there were 20 in JHB, and 4 in CPT, our physical instructor would be in JHB while the 4 in CPT would join the class via a webcast. There?s even the idea of a more blended approach to the delivery model based on numbers. For example, if we?ve got enough people in CPT, JHB and in DBN, a unique instructor will physically meet with each group during the introductory days of the programme with the balance being webcasted to the sites with fewer students.
Finally, I would personally wonder if a two week course is worth my while at all. International exams does make it sound more useful, but would be concerned to spend vast sums of money on a very basic course indeed. I'd much more easily spend money on a longer course.
Fair enough. The real question is; can we as an organization make those two weeks useful to you? At the end of those two weeks, the candidates will be left with a developed game along the lines of a tetris-like game or basic car racing game. The best of these games will be showcased by hosting them on our site for download. Maybe we could even offer a prize for the best as well (Say a 1 year subscription to NAG magazine:)).
The exam that we?re considering to bundle with the course is the 70-536 exam offered by Microsoft (Microsoft .NET Framework - Application Development Foundation). The content related to this exam offers the students foundation knowledge to be able to tackle the concepts covered during the XNA part of the course. Also, that exam leads the way towards certifications on the Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist track, and even the way towards the Microsoft Certified Professional Developer track. Essentially, that exam opens up doors for you if you wish to move further down the route of development. This content, is proposed to be covered during the first week of the course.
During the second week, we propose to cover topics along the following lines with regards to the XNA framework:
Understanding & setting up an XNA environment, Introduction to Developer Basics (Using XNA Game Studio, Coding for Windows, Xbox 360 & Zune), Understanding XNA Game Foundations, Making 2D games, Introduction to 3D Graphics Programming, Understanding Shaders, Animation Introduction, Texturing, 3D Models Overview, Vectors, Matrices, Collision Detection, Ballistics, Particle Effects, Keyframe Animation, Lighting, Handling Input Devices, Adding Audio, Multiplayer Gaming & Network Basics
Over and above the introductory two weeks, the wheels are turning to move our offerings forward (into the realm of a 3D Animation course ~to~ courses that teach programming with specific game engines, such as Unity3D or Torque).
The idea is to eventually have experts in various fields webcast workshops on their subjects of expertise to throes of students across the country at a fraction of the cost per candidate (perhaps a few hundred rands for a 4 hour workshop once a week, every week, for six months). For that to take shape, we first need throes of students at an introductory level able to follow those workshops. Hence, the two-week introductory course to create that...
What our organizations has, that our competitors are hard-pressed to match, is the capacity to deliver what the market asks for. We can project manage the whole delivery, and don?t have to charge an arm and a leg for it. Within the country, our organization is the only Institution registered to offer an NQF level 6 qualification in Business Intelligence. Our trainers have delivered programmes for Universities & well respected private training colleges. You get value, because we make it our business to deliver value to you, the customer.
I want to see something like this realised guys. I?m a gamer & I love gaming. I love game design. I?ve got droves of little journals of games that I wanted to create. I may not be able to make the games I envision at this point, but I can assuredly do something to help those who are in my boat. I come from an education background, so why shouldn?t I do something from that space?
I want to push for this. I want to structure this based on what the community wants in effort to drive the community forward. What we as an organization want to see is a financially viable game dev community where the game devs are making money for the games they develop. We want to bring a course like this to market, to meet that vision.
I ask you, is that worthwhile?
dislekcia
06-07-2010, 03:15 PM
I like the idea of bundling an Xbox 360 with the course. That's a good idea to get people interested... You do realise that there are costs associated with developing on 360 though, right? You need Creators Club membership, which costs $100 a year. If I were you, I'd look at contacting Microsoft SA and seeing if they can't get you Creators Club codes - maybe they'd even sponsor some Xboxen. They did give UCT a bunch of boxes and membership codes...
What does the exam course you're talking about cover? Guessing data structures in .NET and some basic introduction to reflection? I've always considered the Microsoft certifications pretty arb TBH.
During the second week, we propose to cover topics along the following lines with regards to the XNA framework:
Understanding & setting up an XNA environment, Introduction to Developer Basics (Using XNA Game Studio, Coding for Windows, Xbox 360 & Zune), Understanding XNA Game Foundations, Making 2D games, Introduction to 3D Graphics Programming, Understanding Shaders, Animation Introduction, Texturing, 3D Models Overview, Vectors, Matrices, Collision Detection, Ballistics, Particle Effects, Keyframe Animation, Lighting, Handling Input Devices, Adding Audio, Multiplayer Gaming & Network Basics
I have no idea how you're going to teach anyone all of these concepts in a week. Seriously... Sure, someone can follow a tutorial and have a demo that "does all of this" by the end of two weeks, but they won't even come close to understanding that.
I'd recommend putting a lot of effort into helping people grasp the basics of game development (the update loop, framerate independence, loading and manipulating resources, using data structures for game objects) and giving them a really robust framework on which they can experiment in their own time, plus links to follow so that they can self-study deeper concepts. The standard XNA structures that most of the MS tutorials give you are pretty damn bad, as I'm sure anyone who's developed their own thing in XNA can tell you.
How you plan to explain shaders in under a week I'll never know... Don't even get me started on networking. Have you got people that have used XNA to make games helping you lay out this course?
Finally, you're ignoring the biggest problem with the course: The resources you're going to need. Graphics and sounds take up huge amounts of time for inexperienced developers, they try to get everything just right first time and get side tracked making a specific menu or map really pretty instead of having a bunch of squares, circles and triangles that are fun to play with.
dammit
06-07-2010, 05:27 PM
I have no idea how you're going to teach anyone all of these concepts in a week. Seriously... Sure, someone can follow a tutorial and have a demo that "does all of this" by the end of two weeks, but they won't even come close to understanding that.
I'd recommend putting a lot of effort into helping people grasp the basics of game development (the update loop, framerate independence, loading and manipulating resources, using data structures for game objects) and giving them a really robust framework on which they can experiment in their own time, plus links to follow so that they can self-study deeper concepts. The standard XNA structures that most of the MS tutorials give you are pretty damn bad, as I'm sure anyone who's developed their own thing in XNA can tell you.
How you plan to explain shaders in under a week I'll never know... Don't even get me started on networking. Have you got people that have used XNA to make games helping you lay out this course?
Finally, you're ignoring the biggest problem with the course: The resources you're going to need. Graphics and sounds take up huge amounts of time for inexperienced developers, they try to get everything just right first time and get side tracked making a specific menu or map really pretty instead of having a bunch of squares, circles and triangles that are fun to play with.
This. Like I said, a two week course doesn't sound valuable. I'd rather spend a load more money on a year long course where I know things aren't crammed in and I'll actually walk away with a clear understanding of how it all works.
Edit: Also, who is your company exactly? I'm more likely to give money to a company whose reputation I know than one I've never heard of before.
dislekcia
06-07-2010, 05:43 PM
Um, maybe it's worth pointing out that I'm not against a course! I just want the people who come out of courses like this to go on and keep making cool stuff ;)
I mean, I'm going to be doing guest lectures at UCT later this month to expose them to GM and rapid dev for exactly that reason.
Silurian
07-07-2010, 08:52 AM
Hey
i am very intrested in this concept though throwing an xbxo in should maybe be optional
also you can join up to creators club for free make your game ect get it rated and then only when they put it on live do you have to have a paid membership as far as i am aware thats how it works
but still this is a great thing i would love to do this been lookign in to it be myself but just don't have the C# programmign skills
The_Q?
07-07-2010, 11:08 AM
Okay. I?m going to have to tip my hand here so that you all understand exactly where we?re coming from. It?s going to mean us exposing our high level thoughts & you could very well think that we are insane. It?s going to mean a lot of READING for you. Please read it all if you wish to contribute further to this discussion.
As a lot of you have already figured out, I?m doing market research. I am not trying to sell a product. In my personal capacity, I have knowledge about the technologies involved in the game design space; but by no means am I an expert (IMHO, very few should ever claim that anyway about any space that they understand). That does not mean that I don?t know what I?m talking about, but what it does mean is that I am learning. I posted this to specifically learn what the community wants. I posted assuming I did not know anything about what the community wants. The feedback that has come back thus far has been fantastic. It has started to shape a product in my mind that my organization can actually sell.
Our design is grand. What we?re trying to do is FORMALIZE a game development Industry. Notice that I did not say CREATE in my previous sentence. Groups like game.dev & others have come along way in working to establish the industry. What we?d like to do is bring all the stakeholders together across the entire value chain to create something sustainable; right through from the kid with a dream, including the game dev initiate with basic understanding as well as the stoic developers with several projects under their belts.
Keep those three groups in mind, plus one more:
The kid with the dream ? Has an idea for a really cool game. Makes some drawings. Sketches awesome stuff. Is having fun with game design.
The game dev initiate with basic understanding ? They?ve already learnt a bit on their own. They?ve read articles, played with tools and perhaps even cranked out a couple games by now.
The stoic developer with several projects under his belt ? Close, so close to being sustainable. Firmly entrenched in the discipline of making games. Maybe making money here and there. Probably started a studio. But not ?where he/she wants to be?
The sustainable game developer ? Where the kid with the dream should end up. This is where the game dev with basic understanding takes his hobby and makes a career out of it. This is where the stoic developer wants to be. This takes a lot of hard work to get to. It is not easy to reach. Support is given by organizations, but they may not necessarily understand how to create these.
I?m going to make a bold statement and say that my organization wants to create lots of people from Group 4.
We recognize that in order to that, we need to do a lot of work. The question is, what do we need first? Our feeling is that we need to create enough awareness amongst the people with interest (i.e. the kid with a dream). However, at the same time we don?t want to exclude those ?kids? that have had to grow up and shelf their dream for a bit because of L.I.F.E (you know, work, marriage, bringing home the money, etc). We want to turn those kids with dreams into people from Group 2.
What we?re trying to do is create a course that acts as an entry point into a world of game development. A question I often asked when I was a ?kid with a dream? and I scribbled in my journals was ?where do I start??. The answer up to now has been to start by yourself. You have to do all the research yourself. You have to put time, effort and energy into LEARNING YOURSELF. Now I?m not saying that we?re going to create a magic course that will instantly put all that knowledge into your head, but it will be a course that puts little tiny pieces of most of the required knowledge in there.
Right. So I?m doing this market research, yes? Cool. We propose something. You feedback. We change some stuff and propose something else. This goes back and forth until we both go: ?That?s it! That?s exactly what we want!?. We?ll call this ?Super Game Development Course ? LEVEL ONE?. It teaches exactly the right stuff to the kid with a dream, but might not be suitable for the either the game dev initiate or stoic developer. For the game dev initiate we have a collection of workshops which we call, ?Super Game Development ? LEVEL TWO? which will cover more theory about game design (so more functional knowledge). Then, for the stoic game developer we don?t need to teach game development any more. They know how to make games at this point (perhaps some spit and polish on one or two subjects is needed, so they can gap into workshops from LEVEL TWO, if need be). For them we need to teach ?How to make money as a Game Developer? ? which is more operational in nature. It?s actually more business incubatory at this level. Eventually, we?ll get stoic game developers becoming sustainable ones. Then we?ve formalized a viable industry. That journey starts with a single step. Which is this very research. :)
When you read every one of my response?s from here on out, keep that long wall of text in mind. It should change your perspective of what we?re trying to achieve.
I like the idea of bundling an Xbox 360 with the course. That's a good idea to get people interested... You do realise that there are costs associated with developing on 360 though, right? You need Creators Club membership, which costs $100 a year. If I were you, I'd look at contacting Microsoft SA and seeing if they can't get you Creators Club codes - maybe they'd even sponsor some Xboxen. They did give UCT a bunch of boxes and membership codes...
If we did decide to go the route of bundling the Xbox (remember, this is still in play), then the cost for Creator's club membership would then be built into the sale of the xbox. Contacting Microsoft South Africa as you've said is a very valuable suggestion. I will pursue this.
What does the exam course you're talking about cover? Guessing data structures in .NET and some basic introduction to reflection? I've always considered the Microsoft certifications pretty arb TBH.
Your guess is more or less accurate (See the 70-536 (?http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/exam.aspx?ID=70-536&locale=en-us#tab2?) exam page on the Microsoft Site for the full list of the Skill?s measured by that exam) . Remember, the typical ?kid with an idea for a game? often knows nought about programming concepts. Our reason to bundle this particular exam is to expose them to basic programming principles. Dually, an understanding of the .net framework leads them into XNA quite nicely. Unless you can think of a better exam to acheive that?
I have no idea how you're going to teach anyone all of these concepts in a week. Seriously... Sure, someone can follow a tutorial and have a demo that "does all of this" by the end of two weeks, but they won't even come close to understanding that.
I'd recommend putting a lot of effort into helping people grasp the basics of game development (the update loop, framerate independence, loading and manipulating resources, using data structures for game objects) and giving them a really robust framework on which they can experiment in their own time, plus links to follow so that they can self-study deeper concepts. The standard XNA structures that most of the MS tutorials give you are pretty damn bad, as I'm sure anyone who's developed their own thing in XNA can tell you.
I?m not sure whether you?re saying the MS tutorials are bad, or XNA is just a bad framework. Apologies for the misunderstanding upfront, please clarify. I?m going to assume you meant the MS tutorials suck. The feeling in the office that XNA is a pretty solid framework we can to carry across basic understanding @ ?Super Game Development Course ? LEVEL ONE?. Perhaps the MS tutorials themselves are pretty damn bad as you say, but there are a couple of books out there that broach the subject quite amicably to the layman at this level. I?d love to have that discussion with you at some stage. Perhaps you could even suggest some books besides the MS tutorials?
You?re argument is perfectly valid at ?Super Game Development Course ? LEVEL TWO? (which is a series of workshops, as stated above). What you?ve highlighted here: ?the update loop, framerate independence, loading and manipulating resources, using data structures for game objects? can be workshopped to some who understands basic programming, but not to ?the kid with a dream?. Do you see the value in that logic? Discuss.
How you plan to explain shaders in under a week I'll never know... Don't even get me started on networking. Have you got people that have used XNA to make games helping you lay out this course?
If your concerns are specifically shaders and networking, fear not for those topics can be covered during workshops at LEVEL TWO, with only introductions into those topics during the LEVEL ONE.
The other idea I have in response to this point, is instead of running the LEVEL ONE as a two-week full time programme, how about running it as a 10 Saturday programme? During which homework & assignments can be given and assessed every week. This then helps to cement the knowledge further in the candidate?s mind.
Finally, you're ignoring the biggest problem with the course: The resources you're going to need. Graphics and sounds take up huge amounts of time for inexperienced developers, they try to get everything just right first time and get side tracked making a specific menu or map really pretty instead of having a bunch of squares, circles and triangles that are fun to play with.
Ah. But you?re assuming we didn?t. I don?t blame you, as I did not lay all the cards on the table form the start. At the end of LEVEL ONE, their game will be playable but not necessarily a work of art. They will have structured deliverables & targets to hit during those assignments. Functionality is key. A game that looks like poo, but works is better than a gorgeous game where the main character dies because of div/0. I understand. We understand. We are the borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. (Apologies. I could not resist.)
I will respond to the other posters later. Please bear with me.
ZoRPA
07-07-2010, 11:21 AM
I am seriously interested. I've been in contact with a training company over the last two weeks (not sure if I can post the name of the company) as I want to do courses in programming but specifically on the development side. In my correspondence with them, I looked into Visual Basic for Application, just as a basis in understanding the building blocks of programming as a whole. From there, their courses can take me into C# game programming and DirectX9 fundamentals. They are based in Cape Town and I'm in Centurion, but they can accommodate me by doing courses online. I have to say that I'm not very keen on doing a course online. I'd rather be in a classroom with hands-on training.
Seeing this thread was like champagne raining from the heavens, as the course your describing will be of great benefit in conjunction with the above mentioned courses. I know that yours are on the XNA side and the above on the PC side, but I think the broader your exposure the better.
Please PM me the link you spoke of.
Silurian
08-07-2010, 03:01 PM
hi there
you plans so far sound very good as for XNA i do think it's a stable framework as i haven't heard anythign bad about it and you can also make games for anything microsoft (which is quite abit)
lookign foward to hearing more from you Q
The_Q?
09-07-2010, 08:55 AM
Hi all, I still do have alot to say about this. I'm a little swapmed atm with work here at the office. I'll pick up the discussion later on with you guys and reply the the posts and drop the pm's that are requested.
Please bear with me :)
Jay Jared
18-01-2011, 10:59 AM
What is happening with this course. Any news?
If you are looking to do a game development course, there is one at UCT, and other universities will be adding game design courses in a year or two as well.
Fengol
18-01-2011, 02:16 PM
What happened to the guys from last year's rAge?
dislekcia
18-01-2011, 04:39 PM
What happened to the guys from last year's rAge?
Got a mass email from them a few days back. Basically saying "We're thinking about starting an event or having a get together". I'd linked them the regular meetups at MS before, but have no idea if they're going or not...
xyber
18-01-2011, 07:31 PM
Got a mass email from them a few days back. Basically saying "We're thinking about starting an event or having a get together". I'd linked them the regular meetups at MS before, but have no idea if they're going or not...
Don't think they attended yet, else someone would have stood up and told us about what they do. We have this, tell us what you wanna tell us bit at the start/end of the session.
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