View Full Version : Competition 24: Coherence
dislekcia
09-12-2009, 03:12 AM
Comp 24: Coherence
This month's challenge is a little different. We've already had a stab (a very successful stab) at rethinking existing games via different genres... What if you were to tell the same story through different gameplay mechanics?
Design the same game twice. Then make the two "takes" on the concept hang together coherently. Have the story progress smoothly between the two, jump back and forth across the different gameplay elements, even combine the two seemingly disparate experiences later on in the game. What about going Guy Ritchie on it? Recently the question "Where's gaming's Memento?" popped up, let's answer that... In short: As long as we get to experience multiple genre conventions, play-styles or mechanics in your game, go wild!
Rules:
Competition starts on December 10th 2009, 10-12-2009.
Deadline is January 31st 2010, 31-01-2010.
Have multiple genres/play-styles/game mechanics in the same game.
Yes, you can have more than 2 game-styles, just in case your time-machine is in full working order.
Ask for help when you get stuck, share ideas and be awesome to each other.
Any releases must contain all files needed to run and should not require other bulky systems to be downloaded or installed, exceptions are browser plugins like Flash and self-contained dlls distributed with the game).
Any releases entry must include a readme.txt that EXPLAINS THE CONTROLS, RULES and any other information you want to get across to your users. IT MUST ALSO LINK BACK TO THIS COMPETITION POST!
Competition is open to entry for South African citizens, current residents of South Africa and South African passport holders.
The judges' decision is final and no negotiation will be entered into. All risk or liability in case of copyright infringement or other legal issue resides with the entrant, Game.Dev and NAG take no responsibility for entered games.
Entering:
To enter the competition, start a thread titled "24: <NameOfGame>" and post your design ideas and game releases there. As you release files, edit your first post to point to the most recent versions available.
Other people WILL reply to your post with their feedback and ideas, it's a fact that games that allow forumites to give their feedback do better in competitions. Please report any offensive comments to me for moderation. Consider releasing your source code, it helps us pinpoint problems that you might be having and benefits the community as a whole.
Advice:
Focus on having something you want to tell or get across to players. Then build your game around that. The simpler and more succinct your message (whatever it might be), the easier it's going to be to come up with different ways to tell it.
Don't discount card games, board games and other mechanisms that aren't usually a part of "standard" game interaction. Try to come up with synergies that you could use to good effect: What about a card game whose pickup rules are influenced by a management game going on at the same time?
...
Good luck and enjoy the competition. I'm expecting this to be far too AWESOME :)
Bonezmann
09-12-2009, 08:36 AM
So we fuse two genres into one? Or do we make one game, varying two genres from level to level? Excuse my stupidity, but I don't understand completely. :)
I just got an idea!!
Hmm, now, how to put it together >:D this wil be fun.
Fengol
09-12-2009, 09:15 AM
The way I understand it, it can be combined or seperate. So you could have an RPG with a character walking around and talking to people and then a schump (so the hero is a pilot or something).
A game that I can think of that has 2 distinct elements is X-Com with it's base building, research and incident management and then the tactical scenarios. Then there's Star Control 2 with heavy exploration and storytelling with Spacewar! combat.
Am I right?
dammit
09-12-2009, 09:35 AM
What about combining a card game and a board game? Would that count as two separate mechanics? Also, crap, I didn't want to get involved with this comp :<
Bonezmann
09-12-2009, 10:00 AM
What about combining a card game and a board game? Would that count as two separate mechanics? Also, crap, I didn't want to get involved with this comp :<
If that could work, I've got a killer idea!
Fengol
09-12-2009, 11:27 AM
I don't know why, but I feel compelled to do something with trains in this comp :S
AndrewJ
09-12-2009, 11:59 AM
I don't know why, but I feel compelled to do something with trains in this comp :S
Sorta like the brilliant (IMHO) The Train: Escape to Normandy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Train:_Escape_to_Normandy)? I really enjoyed that game!!! Hmmm... I wonder if I have a copy lying around somewhere? I must go look for it.
DukeOFprunes
09-12-2009, 12:11 PM
Just trying to understand the concept here.
If I get this correctly, it's a mashup of two genres, like Comp 22, but different how? Or, instead of mixing it into the same game, you mean we actually make the same game twice except, per example, you play 10 minutes of it as a SHMUP and the next 10 minutes as an RPG and try to have them both tell the same story?
Confused.
Fengol
09-12-2009, 12:45 PM
Reading it again, yes it's like Comp 22 but the original game you must design and implement as well and then the twist is you must put BOTH games into one.
So for example, I can make a Elite type game with a topdown shooter; exploring the universe and trading. Then I make a card game about space exploration and trading. Finally, I put make a game that uses both mechanics.
Fengol
09-12-2009, 12:46 PM
Sorta like the brilliant (IMHO) The Train: Escape to Normandy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Train:_Escape_to_Normandy)? I really enjoyed that game!!! Hmmm... I wonder if I have a copy lying around somewhere? I must go look for it.
Exactly :D
BlackShipsFillt
09-12-2009, 01:19 PM
Oooh... It's a very interesting competition indeed...
From a mash-up perspective I think this is a BRILLIANT approach to design because it forces the designer to make each mechanic enjoyable on it's own (though I understand mash-ups aren't necessarily the goal).
There are actually some pretty awful examples of this sort of design that fail horribly... Like quick-time events in first person shooters... (maybe I'm being subjective here, but I really don't think quick-time events add anything)
But allot of great older games got it right... I loved XCom and Starcontrol...My personal favourite was Pizza Tycoon (nothing can beat blowing up the opposition's restaurant in a top-down shooter within a tycoon game)...
I think the key to the competition is to tell a part of the story that could only be told with a significant change in gameplay (or otherwise a cutscene)... My own idea is a bit of an imperfect fit (it'll hopefully be a strategy/defence/shooter/simulation) in that it'll work better as a mash-up than 4 separate games, but it's a very exciting brief (And it's about time I participated in one of these things).
dislekcia
09-12-2009, 02:43 PM
Just trying to understand the concept here.
If I get this correctly, it's a mashup of two genres, like Comp 22, but different how? Or, instead of mixing it into the same game, you mean we actually make the same game twice except, per example, you play 10 minutes of it as a SHMUP and the next 10 minutes as an RPG and try to have them both tell the same story?
Confused.
It's a mashup, but not of content. Your goal is to mashup gameplay mechanics with the same/related content kept coherent across the mashup. The idea is that people will find new and interesting ways to relate disparate gameplay. In doing that, they'll learn things about telling stories with games and where the boundary between gameplay and experience actually is ;)
dislekcia
09-12-2009, 02:48 PM
There are actually some pretty awful examples of this sort of design that fail horribly... Like quick-time events in first person shooters... (maybe I'm being subjective here, but I really don't think quick-time events add anything)
But allot of great older games got it right... I loved XCom and Starcontrol...My personal favourite was Pizza Tycoon (nothing can beat blowing up the opposition's restaurant in a top-down shooter within a tycoon game)...
Exactly. Back in the day we used to see a lot of this sort of gameplay switchup when it made sense in games: Starcon2 and Xcom are great examples of this. Even Dungeon Keeper did it to a degree. Syndicate had the management/economy sim/setup phase and then the agent-based gameplay. We don't see that as much today, genres are things that "describe" entire games instead of just being words we use to relate gameplay mechanics. If you fall "outside" a genre, that's become a bad thing. Why?
Quicktime events are the one exception, they're used really badly all over the place. Does that mean they're a crap mechanic or can they be used well in a context that makes them coherent at some point? I dunno. That's why I'm asking Game.Dev the question in the form of a comp :)
SkinkLizzard
09-12-2009, 02:57 PM
would godfather 2 be a sort of example of this what with the management aspect of the don view and
the first/third person carnage shooter aspect ?
or am I still not getting it ?
Fengol
09-12-2009, 03:02 PM
Godfather 2 is a good example :D
SkinkLizzard
09-12-2009, 03:11 PM
:) now that I understand what is required of me I have an idea that will work
if I finish in time
dislekcia
09-12-2009, 03:21 PM
:) now that I understand what is required of me I have an idea that will work
if I finish in time
You've got nearly 2 months! ;)
DukeOFprunes
09-12-2009, 03:49 PM
Okie dokie, so you essentially want the mechanics of two genres, not blended into one mutant thing like with Comp22 but instead keeping their gameplay mechanics separate and pure, and in spite of being two different genres altogether, they still have to promote a single coherent narrative, or objective?
So it's something like Archon, where you play "chess", and only when one piece takes another, gameplay changes entirely to an arcade-style fight between them, the outcome of which deciding the winning piece?
Like the way Brutal Legend is a sandbox open-world exploration game GTA-style with Sacrifice-style RTS bits to advance the plot?
Like Heroes of Might & Magic where you have city management, map exploration and combat all handled as three completely different interactions, but all work together to further the game?
Maybe even Bioshock's hacking minigame except here it'd be a more fundamental part of the game itself... am I on the right track?
BlackShipsFillt
09-12-2009, 04:13 PM
If you fall "outside" a genre, that's become a bad thing. Why?
The trouble is the game market has become so stratisfied. You can see this kind of thing in movies and music as well. If for instance you sell a strategy game to a customer, but half way through the player has to complete a shoot'emup section and, although some players will appreciate the diversity, a couple players will hate it... All of a sudden the game gets a few very negative reviews and it only makes a fraction of the sales. This is natural and unavoidable, but that doesn't mean one cannot make a hit game for the players that appreciate diversity, it just means the game will have to target a smaller, more indie, audience (which could still be a huge audience - 5 million sales is awesome, but 50000 is still pretty sweet) and business-wise it can make sense to target a more fringe audience. Games like Starcontrol and XCom simply could not be successful as mainstream games in today's environment unless they spent sequal after sequal acclimatizing players to their mix of gameplay and slowly built up a dedicated following.
Look at Spore... Maxis is having to lay people off because it didn't make enough money... Spore is an astounding game for a particular player, but for some gamers it tried too many different things and didn't do all of them well enough... Point is it is easier to do one thing right than many and big companies cannot (and shouldn't be expected to) afford any missteps.
DevilsAdvocate
09-12-2009, 05:15 PM
this comp sounds interesting,but im new to nag and i can't post my own thread yet...where can i post my prototype for feedback?help anyone?
dislekcia
09-12-2009, 05:32 PM
am I on the right track?
Yup :)
Fengol
09-12-2009, 05:39 PM
You can post it here DevilsAdvocate and someone will help you
dislekcia
09-12-2009, 05:50 PM
this comp sounds interesting,but im new to nag and i can't post my own thread yet...where can i post my prototype for feedback?help anyone?
Yup. Post it here, I'll fork it into its own thread.
Agrajag
09-12-2009, 06:29 PM
I have the most awesome idea. One half is a side scrolling adventure game, in which you find these jigsaw puzzle pieces. The other half is putting together the puzzle. These two interact in that the world you are exploring is actually made up of the puzzle pieces you are assembling, so as you build more of the puzzle you have more places to explore.
I have an idea I've been working on for a while already, and strangely enough it already encompassed multiple mechanics... But I was hoping to get the first done, um, first, and then move onto the second because of the learning involved.
Anyway... I'm also a bit worried of taking the cliche route of RTS vs FPS... But that's my plan... But don't worry, both are REALLY simple ideas. MMM, hope I can learn the needed things fast enough... Yay competition time!
I have the most awesome idea. One half is a side scrolling adventure game, in which you find these jigsaw puzzle pieces. The other half is putting together the puzzle. These two interact in that the world you are exploring is actually made up of the puzzle pieces you are assembling, so as you build more of the puzzle you have more places to explore.
So like Braid then? :P
Gazza_N
10-12-2009, 10:31 AM
Y'know, if this had been three years ago, I could totally have entered Overseer Assault. Assuming I had a story to go with it, of course... :<
Karuji
10-12-2009, 12:11 PM
This is such awesomeness. *runs off to go plan this*
Kharrak
10-12-2009, 05:46 PM
Some additional questions:
You say, "design the same game twice". Does this mean that, of the two features/genres one combines, each should be able to stand alone as it's own game?
Secondly, how often should the perspective shift? Should it shift constantly, as a common feature that often pops up, or only during certain events (such as post/pre mission screens)?
Should it shift at all, or should it be a constant meld? Or is this up to the designer/creator?
Thanks!
dislekcia
10-12-2009, 06:09 PM
Some additional questions:
You say, "design the same game twice". Does this mean that, of the two features/genres one combines, each should be able to stand alone as it's own game?
Secondly, how often should the perspective shift? Should it shift constantly, as a common feature that often pops up, or only during certain events (such as post/pre mission screens)?
Should it shift at all, or should it be a constant meld? Or is this up to the designer/creator?
Thanks!
Perhaps I should have said "look at the same concept through game design twice" instead. No, they shouldn't stand alone as separate games, they should merge to form a coherent whole despite the gameplay changes and switches.
How often those switches happen is entirely up to you.
BlackShipsFillt
10-12-2009, 06:50 PM
Could the switch be constant, or rather left up to the player, as in a game that has two or more games that would normally be separate running at once... like having a shootemup with base building and the two genres both happen in real time? (like Gate88) or is there meant to be a definite switch? (like landing on a planet or entering combat in StarControl2)... or possibly both?
dammit
10-12-2009, 07:01 PM
Still wondering if boardgame + card game together make a suitable entry?
Bonezmann
10-12-2009, 09:36 PM
Still wondering if boardgame + card game together make a suitable entry?
Well I entered one, I hope it does...
dislekcia
10-12-2009, 10:57 PM
Can you wrangle something so that it fits the rough criteria? Then yes, it fits.
How would an RPG + Platformer fare for the rules?
Fengol
11-12-2009, 03:41 PM
I have the most awesome idea. One half is a side scrolling adventure game, in which you find these jigsaw puzzle pieces. The other half is putting together the puzzle. These two interact in that the world you are exploring is actually made up of the puzzle pieces you are assembling, so as you build more of the puzzle you have more places to explore.
Have you checked out http://www.continuitygame.com/
this comp sounds interesting,but im new to nag and i can't post my own thread yet...where can i post my prototype for feedback?help anyone?
Just post here like glCoolHandf and Deathy have and myself (or another Game.Dev member will make a thread for you.
Deathy: Thread for you (http://forums.tidemedia.co.za/nag/showthread.php?t=12925)
glCoolHandf: Thread for you too (http://forums.tidemedia.co.za/nag/showthread.php?t=12924)
If you guys need stuff added to the main post, just PM me and i'll find the thread and put the stuff in as soon as I can (just dont have decent internet for a while).
If I dont look back here often forgive me, but PMs will get my attention faster as the email shows up on my phone, so if you need a thread and you've posted here PM me, or just dorp me a PM for the thread contents :P
-edit- Ta for taking initiative edg3, tweaked the threads so that they're created by their original owners :)
dammit
23-01-2010, 08:43 PM
=( sad to see that now, with just over a week til deadline, that few of the hoards of entries are actually near completion. So many interesting concepts were floating around too. Wonder why the drop out was so big over the festive season?
dislekcia
23-01-2010, 11:14 PM
=( sad to see that now, with just over a week til deadline, that few of the hoards of entries are actually near completion. So many interesting concepts were floating around too. Wonder why the drop out was so big over the festive season?
This usually happens, especially over the holidays.
Karuji
24-01-2010, 10:31 AM
My apologies :( My time management sucked this time. Though I will promise that I will atleast get the game out at some point (I could rush to get it out in a week, but then it might just be rather ****.)
Yup, I'm guilty. Now I'm rushing to try finish it in the last week!
But I am going to say that I probably won't make it, however, I'll post what I've got done!
Bonezmann
24-01-2010, 03:26 PM
I don't have the time to draw out all my cards, and then there's the actual game and the rules-sheet and balancing the values. Would a text based Pacman work better?
Nandrew
26-01-2010, 10:56 PM
For those worried about getting it out in the final week: my suggestion is to think of a new game concept, right now, that you genuinely feel will only take a few days to make from start to finish. Cut out everything that isn't necessary and focus on making it fun, not complicated.
Not only will it help you make more complete entries, but it's a lovely exercise in minimalism too. :) TBH, I don't think we should view the month/s of comp time as a need to make a game that's worth two whole months of work: it's more like an available time window in which you need to find just a few days to make something full and awesome.
BlackShipsFillt
27-01-2010, 01:54 PM
Doh! Looks like my entry isn't going to get completed :( Game Jam is eating into it's time and besides Spectrum Dream was suffering from dodgy programming from the start .Someday I'd like to resurrect, restart and complete it, but today is not that day.
Fengol
27-01-2010, 05:06 PM
I think I'm gonna have to go with Nandrew's suggestion. I'm really struggling with War Machine and the added difficulty of networking everything just takes too much time
dammit
27-01-2010, 05:07 PM
So, wait, who is actually entering what?
glCoolHandf
01-02-2010, 01:33 AM
Well, here is my entry, or rather, the bit that is done ...
24:Muskiet
http://www.nag.co.za/forums/showthread.php?t=12924
dammit
24-05-2010, 09:18 AM
So, that died a rather unceremonious death. Guess someone should unsticky it?
henniedebeer
24-05-2010, 11:23 AM
Hi there
I've been out of circulation for a few months due to a long family illness and eventual death...
Did anyone actually win this comp, or is it still open, as there are currently no other comps running? If it's still open, I might just recompile my PacMan game...
And another thing, can NAG put the winning games of the competition on the disc? It takes a lot of downloading.
dislekcia
24-05-2010, 02:24 PM
The comp's closed and I'm very slowly judging entries... I just don't have that much time to devote to it anymore. I think I'm also dealing with feeling like the comp is over and I'm a douchebag for not starting a new one properly.
DukeOFprunes
24-05-2010, 02:46 PM
The comp's closed and I'm very slowly judging entries... I just don't have that much time to devote to it anymore. I think I'm also dealing with feeling like the comp is over and I'm a douchebag for not starting a new one properly.
*hug*
CiNiMoDZA
28-07-2010, 10:00 AM
So, are we gonna be having a comp anytime soon :D Pretty amped for one...
dammit
08-11-2010, 06:50 PM
Any progress with this? And progress with the handing over control of the various aspects of game.dev? (couldn't find the thread with that in it)
BlackShipsFillt
19-11-2010, 12:42 PM
Right now I would struggle to find time for another comp... unless it was really short...
So how about a 48 hour comp, which would serve as some practice for the upcoming Game Jam and also rapid prototyping practice?
I would suggest the same format as the Game Jam... participants can choose which 48 hours they want to work for (a choice of weekends perhaps) but they are only allowed to read what the theme and constraints are when they are about to begin (and they would just have to be honest).
I haven't prototyped anything for nearly a year, and I'm getting kind of sad about it (so I would probably do this on my own anyway at some point).
How about it?
Well, Im planning on doing another 24h game dev challenge, but if everyone wants I could work on a 48 hour "comp"? I'll even get someone independant to help judge entries (without him knowing who is who). I can cook up a theme and set a date within the next 2/3 weeks?
BlackShipsFillt
22-11-2010, 11:27 AM
3-4 weeks from now is hopefully when I have a breather.
I'd love to do a little 48 jam, and I am less likely to find the motivation on my own.
That'd be sweet!
FuzzYspo0N
22-11-2010, 11:47 AM
new thread -> Ask question -> weigh responses :)
dislekcia
22-11-2010, 01:04 PM
I'm dying to do some prototyping as well, but I really have no idea if I'll get time :(
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