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Nandrew
07-01-2010, 03:35 AM
DUN DUN DUNNNN! NEW VERSION RELEASED ON 15 JUNE 2010! Have a lookie here!
-------------------------

Hello!

Being a huuuuge fan of Crawl (http://crawl-ref.sourceforge.net/) (my favourite of all the roguelikes), I identify but one minor flaw in my timesink of choice: it's a timesink. Even though I consider the game to be fully worth cutting back on sleep, work and showers for, the reality is that I need the first, get paid for the second and require the third to avoid social ostracisation. And sometimes I just wanna play something for ten minutes before going to bed, y'know? Beginning to end.

"WELL HOLY CRAP," I one day thought. "What if I truly had the power to play a roguelike in quick ten-minute bursts like that? I would be likened unto the gods themselves!"

And so came about an idea for The Perfect Game. By the end of production, it wasn't altogether Perfect or Roguelike (and looked absolutely nothing like Crawl), but I loved my child all the same.

And that child's name was Desktop Dungeons.

http://www.qcfdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/screens_0_14e.png

So, what's the core idea here?

Desktop Dungeons is a quick-session Roguelike, designed to be played casually and for as little as ten minutes at a time.

Head on over to QCF Design (http://www.qcfdesign.com/?p=325) for download links, a list of changes and all that other stuff that's important to know about when a new version gets released!

Or you can just grab version 0.15 here (http://www.qcfdesign.com/Files/DesktopDungeons/DesktopDungeons_v015.zip) (updated 17 Oct 2010, Windows only)

And give it a score on TIGdb's games database. (http://db.tigsource.com/games/desktop-dungeons) I'm looking at it for extra feedback. :P

Also, there's always the Desktop Dungeons Wiki (http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/DesktopDungeons/index.php) for people who are keen to find or share info about the game's various complexidoodles.

And check out the new-new Desktop Dungeons ranked scores over here! Start gettin' dem dungeon runs! (http://www.gmhighscores.com/highscores.php?gameid=936)

Online leaderboard provided by:
http://www.gmhighscores.com/supportgmh.gif (http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showtopic=417012)

Additional credits (more details in the readme):
- Marc Luck and Danny Day (the other two legs of the awesome QCF Design tripod, probably worked more on this version than anyone else)
- Richard Ramsbottom (dungeon tiles)
- Derek Yu (moar tile awesomeness)
- Herman Tulleken (audio)
- Miktar Dracon (splash screen) and Robbie Fraser (colour)

Hope y'all enjoy!

Nandrew
07-01-2010, 04:45 AM
(--NOTE--) This guide applies to version 0.02 of Desktop Dungeons. The game has been updated considerably since then, and while it may be helpful for general tactics, it's no longer an accurate representation of any particular class or game build

Nandrew's Desktop Dungeons guide for beginners
(Human Warrior)
-----

When you're starting out in Desktop Dungeons, you can't go wrong with the Warrior. Gladiators are also cool for beginners, but a warrior often has the extra attack power necessary to topple bosses quickly and his abilities give him enormous advantages against quite a few units. He also rarely uses glyphs, and is thus (somewhat) less complicated to play with compared to other characters.

Humans and dwarves make good warriors for their attack and health bonuses respectively, but for now we're going to stick with the human.

GENERAL TACTICS:

In early game, you'll want to make a beeline for the weakest monsters -- this is made easy by your Warrior's ability to sense monster locations. Don't tackle anything higher than your level if at all possible, and try to kill off as many low-level creatures as possible without exploring too much of the map (uncovering dungeon tiles regenerates health and mana, and you'll need this help later).

In mid-game (from around level 4), you'll want to occasionally attack monsters one or two levels above you. This is usually when you're armed with an appropriate glyph or facing one of the easier opponents: powerups help as well, particularly damage ones. The idea is to gain extra experience and unblock sections of the dungeon that are guarded by the slightly tougher monsters. If you fight enough tough monsters early on, you'll be able to pick off weaker ones later without taking any damage (particularly valuable, as regeneration opportunities from map exploration start to thin out). Remember to only go into combat with a monster if you're prepared to kill it in one sitting -- otherwise, they'll usually regenerate faster than you.

In late game, you'll want to start assessing the situation more critically: you'll have explored most of the dungeon, so regeneration opportunities will become limited. You'll more than likely not be able to kill every single enemy given your supply of health and mana potions (unless you've been quite lucky) so generally, you'll want to fight the boss after you've reached level 8 and mop up any other monsters you can before retiring. When fighting the boss, try casting spells first (as limited as their use may be for a Warrior): once you've exhausted your supplies of mana, convert your glyphs into attack power and engage in some close-quarters boss-mashing.

GLYPH TACTICS:

Warriors generally have an easy time with glyphs: they're not very good with most magic, so most of the time you'll just want to right-click and convert stuff into attack bonuses. There are, however, a few glyphs that should usually be held on to:

First strike (extremely useful for avoiding damage)
Petrify (use this if the boss is too tough: you'll still get some of the score value)
Killing blow protection (only affordable after 2 mana upgrades. Keep active whenever possible)
Poison (allows for regeneration breaks in tough combat without the risk of opponent regenerating too)

Everything else is either sometimes useful or completely unnecessary.

ENEMY TACTICS:

As a general rule of thumb, these are the most significant enemies that a Warrior faces:

(Desirable)
Warlock, Dragonspawn, Goat

(Haha, you're ****ed)
Goo blob

Warlocks and Dragonspawn are great because they do magical damage (50% resistance with Warrior), and you can sometimes tackle one that is several levels higher than you. Goats are soft targets which often go down in one hit. Goo blobs, and in particular the Goo blob boss (Tower of Goo) are huge problems for Warriors: they have high physical damage resistance, and usually the Tower of Goo can only be defeated through petrification, early poisoning or heavy magical intervention. Wraiths also have physical resistance, but this is offset by their generally low health.

COOL IDEAS:

- Go pure attack bonus with glyphs and never cast any spells. This will unlock two awards at the end of the session.
- If you desperately need just a little more damage on your next hit and have a Might glyph handy, cast the spell AND convert the glyph to get a 30% bonus.
- If you don't fancy using a human, try a dwarf. Their health bonuses will help you tank damage more, (important since you'll be hit quite a lot). You'll also find yourself more effective against zombies and meat men.

Miktar
07-01-2010, 05:09 AM
This, I gotta check out. Downloading now.

Miktar
07-01-2010, 07:06 AM
Damn you, this is addictive. Initially I wasn't sure what you were going for, what with the monsters not moving, and the Line Of Sight not being a Roguelike raycast, but after getting into the 'puzzle' vibe of it, making the right sequence of choices, it boils down very nicely in a fun quick experience that requires just the right balance of involvement and alt-tabbing to do other things. Will play more and give feedback if I think of any.

http://clip2net.com/clip/m6496/1262840717-clip-4kb.png

Personally, if you made this into an 8-bit lookalike (res, sprite size, etc) and devolved the style a little, I'd be sold.

EDIT: I wonder if you couldn't speed the flow up a little, by having slight colour-coding or overlays indicating which monsters are 'weak', medium and strong versus your current level, kind of how Diablo-likes colour-code the names, though I'd say doing it as an overlay would let you 'at a glance' make your choices a little faster, or at least home in on the monster to attack next instead of mousing over each one again looking for that weak one you just saw.

I just noticed the level indicators on monsters, doh.

Miktar
07-01-2010, 07:24 AM
http://clip2net.com/clip/m6496/1262841819-clip-4kb.png

Damn, ran out of options, so I had to attack something too strong for me. :P

Miktar
07-01-2010, 07:34 AM
Ah, just crashed:



___________________________________________
ERROR in
action number 1
of Step Event
for object Hero:

Error in code at line 4:
if (max_hp/hp>5) global.accolade[A_TANK]=0;

at position 13: Division by 0.


http://clip2net.com/clip/m6496/1262842431-clip-27kb.png

Fengol
07-01-2010, 09:15 AM
I, my children and my childrens-children will praise your name Nandrew. This must be the most approachable Roguelike I've ever played and because it's so short it's the perfect "quick office break" I've been looking for.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/desktopdungeons.png

Are you going to add an online leaderboard? It should also be easy to save the stats screen to a surface and save the surface to an image file so that people can have a "save stats" button.

Do you also gain more XP for killing a creature a level above you? I ran out of creatures at my level but successfully killed something higher (because it was undead and I was a priest). There should be a +1 for every level above your own you manage to slay.

I also got an error:




___________________________________________
ERROR in
action number 1
of Step Event
for object Hero:

Error in code at line 4:
if (max_hp/hp>5) global.accolade[A_TANK]=0;

at position 13: Division by 0.


And finally, would it be possible to get a flashy message when you've defeated the boss (not a gme end, just a little congratulations)? Otherwise, he's just another monster.

Chippit
07-01-2010, 11:26 AM
Not checking for zeroes in your divisions, Nandrew? Sloppy, very sloppy. I am disappoint.

dislekcia
07-01-2010, 12:01 PM
Same error as the rest on my second playthrough. Couldn't beat the boss monster the first time around... I'm loving the class perks and the different rune names :)

And a new one while clicking on a healing potion as a halfling alchemist on 2 health:

___________________________________________
ERROR in
action number 1
of Mouse Event for Left Released
for object PotionBut:

Error in code at line 13:
Hero.bonusDamage+=5;

at position 14: Unknown variable bonusDamage

... Now I have to figure out what the LEMMISI trick is!

Chippit
07-01-2010, 12:37 PM
You need an award for surviving a fight on 1hp, imo.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n234/ch1ppit/score.jpg

Fengol
07-01-2010, 12:38 PM
Now I have to figure out what the LEMMISI trick is!
HAHAHAHAHA! It definitely needs more achievements like that one!

Torwards the end game, it's very difficult to get health and mana; especially for the end boss. Maybe monsters could drop a potion or 2?

Fengol
07-01-2010, 01:50 PM
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/DesktopDungeon01.png

I don't know if there's a reward for killing all the monsters but there should a small one for more than half?

Nandrew
07-01-2010, 02:42 PM
I'm quite thoroughly overwhelmed by the response so far! Didn't expect this much involvement in such a short time. In particular, one of Fengol's suggestions just won this thread.

I've uploaded a very quick update with some bugfixes and gameplay tweaks. Only minimal testing has taken place, but it shouldn't be anything game-breaking.

Fixes in this version:
* The alchemist works now, have fun with him plz. I enjoyed designing that character, and went a bit d'oh when I saw that bug: changed a variable name at some point to adhere to naming convention and forgot to update that particular mention.
* EXTRA EXPERIENCE earned from fighting monsters of a higher level than you (thanks Fengol!)
* No more universe-breaking division by zero!
* BURNDAYRAZ can be converted properly (in case any of you were having trouble)
* Petrifying the boss no longer gives you the boss kill score, only the "BRICK 'EM" achievement. If you want to get full score, you'll have to fight the old-fashioned way.
* Added an achievement for wiping out every single monster. It carries a chunky score bonus
* Added the "TOOTH AND FREAKING NAIL" achievement
* Only one enemy can be poisoned at a time. Poison expires on one enemy when another gets hit with it.

Nandrew
07-01-2010, 03:39 PM
As for the rest of your suggestions (because some of them were a little too involved to quick-patch into v0.02):

@Miktar: glad you "got it", so to speak. :) I must admit, I was a little bit nervous about putting this across as a Roguelike because, as you pointed out, the transition to casual that I decided on has stripped the game of a lot of classic Roguelike traits. I think my changes make this particular game work better, but I wondered if I'd possibly get chewed out for that by long-time genre fans. :P

With regards to level colour-coding: I'm considering changing the indicator from a "universal colour" (1-3 is green, etc) to a "relative indicator" so that the colours would change based on your character's current level and more elegantly express the "at a glance" thing you're mentioning. Or do people prefer the grouping as it is?

Also, style devolution ftw! I get thoroughly enthralled by the visual simplicity and elegance of games like this (http://vacuumflowers.com/temp/doors), and it may indeed be quite appropriate direction to go down for this one. I'm kinda liking the "early Windows era" look that I've got going right now, but that's only because I can't really pull off anything proper. :P

@Fengol: Really cool idea with the XP bonus. Also, leaderboards will be implemented soon enough (it's going to be a fairly score-based game in the end, much like OOTEZ) but for now I'm really still testing the waters and trying to balance things well enough. I've not been able to thoroughly test out every single class (it's a time-consuming process :P) and it's for that reason that I welcome character guides and gameplay hints from people who decide to specialise in one of the more interesting classes. I'm particularly interested in knowing how people deal with classes in the second column, because they were only added later in development.

Also, I'm looking to do a flashy message for boss defeat, sure! I also want to get a flashy boss introduction message (complete with a badass "boss jingle" that lasts for a few seconds) when you first uncover the boss grid.

WRT your comment about extra health and mana ... yeeeah, sorry, no dice. :P If it's difficult, it's difficult. I try to encourage players who need more health and mana potions to select a halfling or gnome: it genuinely helps late game when you can stockpile the brew of your choice by converting glyphs. Besides, simply handing all players extra potions from monsters will make their racial advantage far less meaningful.

In the end, I really just want any given player to say, "ARRGH! I need JUST ONE MORE (insert item/powerup here)!" Race and class choice will determine what aspects of the game will be easiest, but any given character should always have weaknesses. If you're interested in potions, try a Halfling Alchemist. I find it to be a really cool play style, and the version fix ensures that you won't get that horrible error that dis suffered from.

@dislekcia: when you figure out the LEMMISI technique, you'll **** bricks. Some characters are more effective than others, though.

@Chippit: ****.

Ultixan
07-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Okay now this I like. Very cool little game.

Just an observation on the balance side of things. I see you've adjusted poison but would it ont be better to make poison wear off if you even attack anything else?

I just finished a game as an elf rogue (on the original version you posted) and took out the boss before I hit level 5 using the poison glyph (i forget name) and BURNDAYRAZ.

Anyways, I'll give the new game a shot, it's awesome fun ;)

- Ulti

The Dash
07-01-2010, 04:43 PM
HA! Figured out LEMMISI trick (i think).

http://i50.tinypic.com/2v7wboj.jpg

Nandrew
07-01-2010, 04:45 PM
Ultixan, nice idea with the poison wearoff! I've been trying to think of ways to make it work properly without taking it out entirely, and I reckon that should balance things very nicely.

The Dash: Nicely done! You've obviously figured out the trick, now you just need to figure out how to make it useful for you. :)

(--EDIT--) Also, hey wow, the dungeon screen looks pretty damn neat when it's fully populated/revealed

SkinkLizzard
07-01-2010, 05:43 PM
I enjoy playing human diviner
managed to kill everything except the tower of goo my last attempt

early game if you manage to find the poison glyph you can take out pretty much anything that
doesn't one shot you.

dislekcia
07-01-2010, 06:02 PM
Been playing this all day...

Finally took Garbad (bwahahahahaha, btw) with a Halfling Rogue by whittling him down with BURNDAYRAZ until I could one shot him. Phew. I like how the regen mechanic forces you to plan ahead where and how you're going to move. Exploring becomes a very tactical decision.

Wondering if instead of extra experience, monsters of a higher level shouldn't have a chance to drop either potions or glyphs, might make certain strategic choices more valid. Either way, loving the game :)

Fengol
07-01-2010, 06:15 PM
You bastards, I've yet to find the poison glyph! Just remember The Dash, that they're explored now so you don't get healed by walking around. That's an important strategy I use to keep myself alive if I'm too low level to attack the available monsters; and I normally keep a corner unexplored for the boss.

With regards to graphics, PLEASE DO NOT go the Slot Machine RPG style; I like my retro to be 16bit SNES era. I like the idea of Windows 95 style and I think, with the right artist you can pull something stylish that's not puke inducing. And I prefer the color=level format as supposed to indicating difficulty.

I would love to do a character guide for you, I've been playing a lot with the Wizard.

I really think you should get even a rudimentary online leaderboard soon, while everyone is playing it because, as you know, interest drops off rapidly.

The Dash
07-01-2010, 06:51 PM
[QUOTE=Fengol;255438]You bastards, I've yet to find the poison glyph! Just remember The Dash, that they're explored now so you don't get healed by walking around. That's an important strategy I use to keep myself alive if I'm too low level to attack the available monsters; and I normally keep a corner unexplored for the boss.

But now you know where everthing is, and with that character you also get extra loot. You can tactically plan out your attack. Only tried it once after noticing the achievement, i much prefer Vampire Dwarves :P

Nandrew
07-01-2010, 07:20 PM
Heh, yeah, fair enough: 16-bit SNES looks a helluva lot better than Slot RPG. It also requires considerably more skill to convey ideas with just two colours anyway. :P

I wouldn't say I need to worry about getting a leaderboard up just yet. This game is still in a buildup phase and leaderboards won't really be practical until I fix up the more glaring bugs and start marketing it beyond Game.Dev. And on the matter of interest, you'd be surprised how long it lingers: OOTEZ itself still has a fairly long tail and if anything it's been my own negligence that's caused it to quieten down so much. Marketing isn't for the lazy, and I'll have to pick that ball up again when I get back to active development. <_<

Aaaanyway, Desktop Dungeons still has to undergo a LOT of changes before it enters the main phase of its life. In gameplay terms, we'll probably be looking at some more character classes (I penned down a ridiculous number of ideas which I'll be whittling down to the strongest ones), several extra monster types, *maybe* a few more spells (though I'm genuinely happy with the current selection, funnily enough) and very intense playtesting / balance tweaking. The online leaderboard -- and my main marketing push -- will come when I've got the game built to my satisfaction, a few versions down the line.

If I had to commit myself to a schedule, I'd probably look at making one more release, getting some feedback on that, then following it up with a "ready for marketing stuff" version with online score and most of the core systems sorted. Then stuff can asplode and I'll put a very strong focus on score and other competitive play.

I'm making a delicious gaming stew, and this early feedback and first few guides are the browning of the onions before I chuck in all the main goodies. :)

Nandrew
07-01-2010, 07:23 PM
But now you know where everthing is, and with that character you also get extra loot. You can tactically plan out your attack. Only tried it once after noticing the achievement, i much prefer Vampire Dwarves :P

You've got a nice idea, but remember that dungeon exploration is a resource in itself. LEMMISI is very potent in the hands of a Diviner, but using it all at once would be like quaffing all your healing potions before fighting any monsters.

Miktar
07-01-2010, 09:17 PM
I would personally simplify the character classes and races, but pop them up a little with more exaggerated traits. I swear to God, Nandrew, if you PopCapified this, I'd buy it for $15.

Fengol
07-01-2010, 09:26 PM
I would personally simplify the character classes and races, but pop them up a little with more exaggerated traits. I swear to God, Nandrew, if you PopCapified this, I'd buy it for $15.

Oh hell yes, same here!

Nandrew
07-01-2010, 09:31 PM
I would personally simplify the character classes and races, but pop them up a little with more exaggerated traits. I swear to God, Nandrew, if you PopCapified this, I'd buy it for $15.

Simplification, as you probably know, can be surprisingly difficult. But it's definitely a worthy goal. Perhaps I'll see what I can do about giving more classes two -- or even just one -- special trait while keeping their "personalities" intact. :)

The Dash
07-01-2010, 11:36 PM
You've got a nice idea, but remember that dungeon exploration is a resource in itself. LEMMISI is very potent in the hands of a Diviner, but using it all at once would be like quaffing all your healing potions before fighting any monsters.

But the problem is because it appears to reveal random blocks, you have to reveal a significant section to make any story of strategy. Prahaps it should only reveal empty tiles, which would be interesting as you could get a rough idea of the walls layout, but with the added treasure there will be lots of monstor confusion

dislekcia
08-01-2010, 01:17 AM
Metagame the hell out of the classes! Once you finish with one of the left-column classes, you unlock a corresponding right-column class. Even allow unlocking of races as well, that way initial players aren't overwhelmed with choices early on AND you've even got a pay-hook for later.

You know what the game needs? Set pieces. Things that players can learn will always happen when they recognise certain configurations of the board or of enemies. One of them needs to be a shop-keeper ;)

Aequitas
08-01-2010, 02:45 AM
Firstly ... fu<king awesome game Nandrew! You have outdone yourself!

^5

I played as a dwarf vampire ^_^
Getting health from blood was super effective!
Using low health to do more damage made for some interesting choices.

Also, I demand tribute for exploring a devils worth of the dungeon!

http://i.imagehost.org/0903/DD_01.png

Miktar
08-01-2010, 06:32 AM
http://clip2net.com/clip/m6496/1262925116-clip-4kb.png

Miktar
08-01-2010, 06:45 AM
DAMN! Died on the final monster. :P

http://clip2net.com/clip/m6496/1262925931-clip-5kb.png

Fengol
08-01-2010, 07:41 AM
I disagree dislekcia; because he's got good explanations for the different races and classes I don't think initial players will be overwhelmed. Maybe the screen can be improved but the first time I played, I read the descriptions and chose a Dwarf Priest who seemed to have the health options.

Fengol
08-01-2010, 11:13 AM
Maybe between my stats and the glyphs you can show what effects are in place for the player? I had the first strike effect on, did 21 damage to a creature with 18 HP and it managed to kill me? I think also, you need to manage the "You die..." message after all the damage indicators have been dealt so I know, at least, how much damage was done to me.

I'm on a mission to see how high a level I can get, so far struggling to break level 7.

BlackShipsFillt
08-01-2010, 11:47 AM
http://blackshipsfillthesky.com/images/Desktop Dungeon score.png

I gotta say, when you say "perfect little game" you're not exaggerating. It feels like the core of a rogue-like game stripped of all the fat. It plays nicely, I died three times, then figured out what was going on, restarted once, then finished it (screenshot)... same learning curve as Strange Adventures...

I also really like that no random negative events occur, it feels like all the randomness is laid out at the start and it's up to me to solve the puzzle (which is a good feeling).

I reckon you could take this in many different directions... I like the idea of having some set pieces (like dislekcia said), having levels that require different strategies would really extend the re-playability. Miniboss setpieces would be fun. Maybe some traps (though traps that are easily recognizable but then require some cunning to tackle, like summoning a monster on the trap, while some traps could be fun, like an ambush trap that summons low level monsters), and maybe some story set pieces, like save a princess and return to the king or bring a certain glyph to a wizard.

I think the characters are pretty self explanatory

Aequitas
08-01-2010, 11:57 AM
.... The Warlock boss is called Aequitas .... and he has a cool beard.

This game wins the universe.
The End.

BlackShipsFillt
08-01-2010, 12:46 PM
http://blackshipsfillthesky.com/images/Desktop%20Dungeon%20score2.png

I don't know if I'm being mistaken here but humans seem pretty good, I was a bit disappointed with the elf (2 or 3 mana doesn't seem be as good as 20% to 30% extra damage)... potions might be useful, but extra damage with the possibility of first strike is overwhelmingly good. (although I like this strategy, especially when combined with the last stand ability, but from my brief experience the other races seem a bit underpowered)

BlackShipsFillt
08-01-2010, 02:22 PM
http://blackshipsfillthesky.com/images/Desktop%20Dungeon%20score3.png
http://blackshipsfillthesky.com/images/Desktop%20Dungeon%20score4.png

Ooh.. The Diviner is loads of fun if you get that call-a-monster glyph. Killed Frank the Zombie at level 6 (And I thought he was friendly). The alchemist absolutely destroys if you get an easy start...

There are one or two interface things that might be nice... I can't always remember when I'm death safe, it might be nice to have death safe and first strike indicators. Also the medusas still confuse me a bit, do they kill you when you're below half health and attack them? The gladiator perk of extra experience is a little hard to see the effects of (Gladiator's seem to be a less potent version of rogues or warriors, that get to level 10 at level 9 but they still seem a bit weaker than their counterparts), maybe some way of indicating how much extra experience the player is getting.

By the way... Both Desktop Dungeons and this forum can't take my full name.

Nandrew
09-01-2010, 03:13 PM
Okay, so at this stage replying to everybody's comments is going to be impossible. :P I've received a veritable sea of feedback that I'm now wading through (here and elsewhere), and there's been some pretty remarkable ideas among them.

I've not got a new version out yet, but I'm working on it, and it'll be including some interesting ideas and new content.

For a start: I like the idea of dungeon set pieces. I mean, Crawl and others have spammed the **** out of set pieces, so obviously I have to do that too (just because). In fact, I wanted to implement them from the start, but it turns out that it's considerably more of a coding task than a game logic task, and I'll probably be leaving that feature for a *little* bit later. So it's not coming yet, but it sure as hell will be at some point! My only real "set piece" for now is that the player always starts in an open room, and that's been there from the first version. :P

Now let's get to the major bit:

I'm revamping the class system in a considerable way (though keeping the core structure intact 'cos I like it, so nyah!). There are now twelve classes penned and I'm busy coding them in. All of them will (or SHOULD) be well-balanced, but I'm also taking into acccount two new ideas: ACCESSIBILITY and PROGRESSION. I'm about to write a freakin' essay on these ideas, so watch out.

As an overview, lemme show you the proposed class structure first:

TIER 1:
Fighter
Thief
Priest
Wizard

TIER 2:
Berserker
Rogue
Monk
Sorcerer

TIER 3:
Warlord
Assassin
Paladin
Bloodmage


This is how I plan to address ACCESSIBILITY:

(1) When a new player starts up Desktop Dungeons, they'll ONLY have access to Tier 1 classes. That's FOUR really basic characters: enough to provide a meaningful selection, but not enough to overwhelm them (and if it does, I'll take that loss. If four classes are too confusing for a person to choose from, they shouldn't be playing this game anyway. Or in other words, GTFO NEWBIE)

(2) Each class in Tier 1 embodies a particular play style or theme which y'all have probably already figured out. The fighter focuses on a mixture of taking and dealing combat damage, priests are anti-undead tanks, wizards cast spells and **** and the thief is, y'know, everything else. They're character archetypes. Each archetype has a corresponding character in Tier 2 and Tier 3 (for example, THIEF -> ROGUE -> ASSASSIN).

(3) While the four Tier 2 characters are similar to the Tier 1 characters presented, they still have completely different abilities and, more importantly, require a more advanced playstyle than Tier 1. A first tier example: the Fighter is similar to the old Gladiator: fast XP gain and killing blow survival paired with the old Warrior's monster reveal. These are what I consider to be three "newbie oriented abilities": the first one assists with faster leveling, the second essentially forgives a mistake and the third is a guide to show players where to go.

(4) Contrast this with the current idea for the Tier 3 warrior, the Warlord: a similar playstyle (rush into combat and fight stuff toe-to-toe) but with far more advanced and "maintenance-heavy" skills for veteran players: he starts with a skill glyph that needs to be manually activated, has inherited the old Battlemage's power of consuming mana potions for attack power, and also now uses the old Vampire's technique of doing bonus damage when on a tenuous amount of health. This is an appreciably more involved/confusing play style, which is why it's reserved for Tier 3. But of course, vets may well find that he's far more useful and interesting than the lowly Fighter.

(5) In summary: any player who even wants to try a Warlord will first have to "prove" themselves with two similar characters: a slightly less complex Berserker and a really basic Fighter. And if somebody wins with a Fighter, tries a Berserker and finds the latter too complex ... well, they know that they can always go back to the Fighter or try one of the other Tier 1 classes. Win? Win.


This is how I plan to address PROGRESSION:

(1) In addition to only having four character classes to start with, players will also only have five different monster types and nine different glyph skills. These will, where possible, be the more basic / less powerful varieties.

(2) Every time a player wins the game with a new TIER 1 or TIER 2 character, they'll unlock one extra monster and one extra character. From that point on, starting a game with ANY character will include the new monster in the game's random generation. Since there's 8 unique characters in the first two tiers, this will eventually bump the monster count up from 5 to 13: the sort of games you have after playing for quite a long time will be far more complicated and interesting than the ones you started out on, and presumably anyone who has managed to win with these sort of characters isn't a newbie anymore. Thus, veteran gamers get to unlock a steadily more exciting and rewarding challenge for themselves, while less experienced players are subtly (BUT QUITE FIRMLY, MIND YOU -- SO SAYETH THE DESIGNER!) given a nudge towards the full game experience.

(3) So what about the TIER 3 characters? Well, in case a player isn't thrilled at the idea of unlocking more monsters and therefore a greater variety of challenges for themselves (in which case they can refer to my previous statement regarding GTFO NEWBIE), and the reward of new characters isn't enough (hah! As if!), some of the most powerful glyphs in the game can only be unlocked when you win with one of the Tier 3 dudes. And I know that they're the most powerful, because I've picked the ones you all love.

(4) For example, playing as an ASSASSIN will start your character out with the APHEELSIK glyph (most of you will already recognise this as the all-powerful poison spell). This glyph won't appear for ANY OTHER CHARACTER unless you win with the Assassin first, at which point it'll be unlocked in a similar way to the monsters and be included in the "random pool" of spells when a dungeon is generated. Similarly tasty spell unlocks are Resist Death from the Warlord, Heal from the Paladin (it's been buffed now, cos it kinda sucked before), and a new one called BLUDTOPOWA that you can unlock from the Bloodmage.

(5) As a final incentive for progression and experimentation: Consider that playing as a Fighter with a fully-unlocked, fully-stocked dungeon could end up giving you a MASSIVELY different play experience when compared to playing for the first time with only five enemies, fewer spells and a piece of bubblegum where your shield should be. Add to this the possibility of unlocking set pieces as well (though only for later versions of the game) and you've got yourself some delightful replayability. Not to mention, of course, that I'm making an achievement worth several thousand points to give out whenever a character wins a "full unlock" dungeon.


Ultimately, the accessibility and progress are themselves interconnected (unlocking higher tier characters helps progression, while starting with fewer monsters/glyphs helps accessibility). Together, they make SCIENCE! I'm pretty keen on this idea, so who's with me on this? Anybody wanna dissect it? Or maybe just shout "WOOOO!" if it's been tl;dr? I reckon it's a good move.



By the way... Both Desktop Dungeons and this forum can't take my full name.

Yes, but I win because my game includes the "h".

Fengol
09-01-2010, 03:58 PM
I love these ideas Nandrew and turn the game towards a Completist style similar to the most of the Popcap games.

What about also having abilities or spells that can be unlocked but used across characters, or even custom classes where the player can pick a set skills they've previously unlocked. Say, after completing all 3-Tier classes.

Nandrew
09-01-2010, 05:42 PM
What about also having abilities or spells that can be unlocked but used across characters

I'm afraid you're going to have to clarify that one, because the way I'm reading it now suggests that you're asking for a feature I've outlined above. Poison, healing, death resist and a new glyph are ALL unlockables that everyone can use when you win with the correct characters. ;)


or even custom classes where the player can pick a set skills they've previously unlocked. Say, after completing all 3-Tier classes.

That's a tempting idea (very tempting), but after some thought I'm going to say no. First of all, I think that the definition of particular classes and play styles is important here and should be controlled by the developer. A certain level of customisation is cool, but that's what the race combos and random dungeons are for.

A parallel to this can be seen in Diablo. Actually, **** Diablo, let's talk Borderlands! When you pick a class, you have a certain level of flexibility within that class: weapon specialisations, skill trees, whatever. This helps you create a character with your own "mark" on it, I suppose.

If you choose a soldier, chances are that you're going to act as support, medic, or whatever other roles are appropriate for its skill tree. No matter what you do, however, you'll still remain within some hard-coded confines of the soldier class. You can't Phasewalk, you'll rely on your turret in heavy firefights and though your combat specialisations may deviate from the Shotgun and Combat Rifles, the developers have pretty much shown you that they're the most sensible choice to go with.

And that's great! Part of the coolness and value of being a soldier is that you get to do stuff that none of the other players can! Conversely, when I see another character with Brick running in with freaking EXPLODING PUNCHES, I get a teensy bit jealous for a tiny moment, which is also pretty neat. It affords every character value and flavour.

I want to keep that flavour with each of my classes. If I control the variables, I can tweak balance and make extremes more easily. I can build a Rogue class for my players which has +60% damage as one trait and -5 HP per level as another, forcing a very particular -- but fun -- playstyle.

Given the opportunity to select anything, however, I see things going amiss. For a start, people are going to cluster around a few "prime" builds and see others fall by the wayside. Instead of global leaderboards being filled with fighters, paladins, wizards and assassins and other classes that I can more easily control and balance, we're going to have two or three uber custom builds while half of the skill tree falls away because it doesn't perfectly synergise with the most popular spell in the game. Considering that I want to make score at least as important in this as I did in OOTEZ, this is actually quite a grim scenario.

The alternative? More carefully balance the traits of the base classes. Make them less exaggerated so that there's no easy way to get an "ultimate combo" when customisation comes. But I WANT that exaggeration, and if I have to choose between that and custom classes, custom has to go. :P


In general,there is one rule I try to stick to in games, because I've seen how valuable it is from both ends: NEVER give the players ultimate power. It's really, really tempting to give in: players scream for it, developers think it would be cool, but every time I see them yield to that sort of demand, the game loses its magic. You're no longer humbled by the experience, because you own it now. And while that rush of awesome is great for a moment, it quickly subsides and I shelf the bugger.

Other gamers may think differently, but this is how I genuinely feel when I personally approach a game. And since I don't really want to put a feature into a game which I myself would be disappointed by, I'm going to have to call it a no. :P

Nandrew
09-01-2010, 05:49 PM
Guys, if the essays are tl;dr right now, please ignore them. I'm getting quite excitable and stuff, that's all. :P

BlackShipsFillt
10-01-2010, 12:26 AM
Essays are good! I think everyone here wants to learn from your experiences.

BTW. About giving the player ultimate power. I don't know if Spore is a good example, but I reckon it's a game that allowed for too much customization and as a result no real power, the modifications were watered down so much as to be irrelevant... On the other hand Scribblenauts was quite successful (even if the controls were hideous), although maybe less successful than everyone expected...

My point is that although I think you're going the exact right route on Desktop Dungeon... ie more flavourful characters and more varied gameplay... Extending the player's control over the game can lead to interesting results if the player's control is integrated into the gameplay. (I'm working on a concept that attempts to do this, there's a chance it may fail as a game, but it will definitely be an interesting experience)

Aequitas
10-01-2010, 01:35 AM
I had an idea while talking to Dis over dinner.

Altars.

Imagine finding a room in the dungeon that says 'the altar demands xxx as sacrifice' and xxx could range from half you current health, to half your max health, to even a level!

You click the altar, loose the xxx and gain something of equal or greater value! Like maybe 5 extra max mana and full mana, or a 40% damage bonus, or first strike for the rest of the dungeon!
they don't need to be there every game, but it would be neat to find from time to time.

BlackShipsFillt
10-01-2010, 09:32 AM
This may be one of those instances where it's best not to give the player what he/she wants, but, as a player what I really wanted was some more dungeons... I wanted to take my level 9 character and wipe out another bunch of more powerful monsters in a new dungeon with deadlier spells...

I suppose it's a testament to the addictiveness of the game, but an impulse best not followed up on...

Here is a cool idea... How about Super Contra bosses? A boss that takes up several tiles, head, tentacles, organs etc, each having their own weaknesses and having to be killed in the correct order... though I suggest this for just about every game, it's my fondest childhood memory.

Fengol
10-01-2010, 10:34 AM
Actually, that's not a bad idea. When you kill the boss a portal opens up to another random dungeon into which you can take your current character

BlackShipsFillt
10-01-2010, 11:35 AM
Trouble is it would start to sprawl over the 10 minute gameplay mark... And raises problems like : When does the game end, and, can you just keep on playing and growing more powerful, and if you enter another arena as a more powerful hero against more powerful monsters then aren't you just leveling up on the spot. (like the way all Oblivion enemies get stronger with you making any progress on your stats sheet meaningless in terms of gameplay)

It's only worth entering a new dungeon if there is new content that would not fit into the one dungeon format. Like the way Spelunky has 4 types of caves... And like Spelunky it is only worth it if there is a definite end, otherwise it becomes a never-ending time-sink roleplaying game and Nandrew loses the casual audience.

I quite like the Spelunky comparison here because Nandrew attached a readme file to DD that was awfully similar to Derek Yu's Spelunky readme (ie full of "this game is rather difficult" warnings)... but actually DD is much easier... In it's current form I can beat it about one in four times, whereas Spelunky took me 288 deaths to win... (I think DD could be a bit harder personally)

Another thing, if there were multiple Dungeons, then there would be more investment on the players part, and this would make dungeons that are actually impossible really ****. At the moment this seems to happen every six or seven games and isn't really a big problem because it's usually noticeable right at the start, but noone wants to have their progress erased due to arriving at an impossible level.

Nandrew
10-01-2010, 01:25 PM
Well reasoned, actually. Extra leveling is definitely another idea which sounds cool, but it's one which I'd prefer not to follow up on, partially for personal reasons.

Allowing players to develop characters beyond the 10-minute mark could perhaps work if a solid attempt was made, but it interferes with the game's core ethos. The sole reason for developing this was so that I could play for it ten minutes between tasks knowing that no matter what I did, my hero lived, fought and died in those few minutes. It defines the attitude of the game.

THAT SAID, however, I am looking at multi-session persistence. I've been batting some ideas back and forth with people over Gtalk and hopefully within the next version or so I'll have established a persistent game currency of sorts that can be collected and stored over multiple games. I've also got a few ideas about the sort of things that can be bought with this currency.

Also, lol, Super Contra boss. Mebbeh. Nobody can deny that Contra *did* have some rad bosses.


Altars.

Whee! I'm already looking at what sort of pantheon could work well with those. :)


(I think DD could be a bit harder personally)

I'm always looking for an excuse to crank it up, so watch out! :P But the next version is going to come with quite a few changes anyway, so we'll see how the difficulty pans out then.

Nandrew
17-01-2010, 04:21 PM
Apologies for the quietnessitude this past week: between travel, illness and sitting in Grahamstown with a not-yet-sorted-out Internet line, I've found it rather difficult to do, well, ANYTHING on the Internet.

I've actually got a yummy new version of the game readied, I'm just having massive pains with Box.net / uploading / stuff due to the really slow connection, and I think I'd rather wait until I have a more stable line. Looking at some time around Wednesday, hopefully.

DukeOFprunes
22-01-2010, 01:45 PM
So when's this mythical new version coming out? ^____^

Nandrew
22-01-2010, 07:55 PM
Currently scheduled for some time next week. My Internet is still crying tears of blood, and I'm only going online for the absolute most necessary work and stuff. Uploading files is a near impossibility.

To give you guys an idea of what's actually been thrown in so far:

- completely revamped class system (as described above)
- sounds from Herman Tulleken! (well, in progress, but they're as good as in I reckon)
- shops and gold system (I coded this in rather clumsily, so I'm still hacking out a bunch of problems)
- more enemies
- an attempt at dungeon set pieces (again, I'm noobing a little on this, but it should be sorted with a little more work)
- A FULL PANTHEON OF GODS (DUM DUM DUMMM)

I'm also making a bunch of less spectacular tweaks. In particular, I'm trying to figure out how to generate fewer "impossible" dungeons (though I don't think it's a terrible problem at this stage, just something I'd like to iron out if it doesn't affect the game negatively).

Looking forward to posting it, I think there's a lot of exciting stuff going in. And at the same time I'll be able to go around to all the other threads and download the latest versions of other people's games: I've got a long list of "unread" threads that I'm keen to attend to. :D

BlackShipsFillt
22-01-2010, 10:08 PM
Sweeet! looking forward to it!

dislekcia
23-01-2010, 01:18 AM
The best part is that I get to play the new version while Nandrew uploads it! Mwahahahaha.

Miktar
02-02-2010, 03:25 AM
WHERE IS THE NEW VERSION!

Someone lied to me. ;..;

http://clip2net.com/clip/m6496/1265073995-clip-36kb.jpg

Fengol
02-02-2010, 11:56 AM
There actually is no excuse. I know he was visiting Aeq and D last night so there should have been an upload!

dislekcia
02-02-2010, 04:20 PM
OMFG!

I just had the most epic game... Second time playing with the new Rogue (unlocked when you kill a boss with the thief) and I'm loving the character, total glass cannon. Struck it super-lucky and bought a 10% physical resist charm and then a +10 health amulet from two different shops at level 1. Rogues only gain 5 health per level, so the extra health is awesome. Made my way around the dungeon sniping things I could take on my own until I found fireball. This meant I could take on much higher level monsters with a double-fireball, ride the first attack and rely on first strike to finish them while I had no health. Well, unless they were poison monsters, those you might have to take through attrition. Eventually the game came down to me not having enough health by 1 to survive a single hit from the boss. The only way to get more health would be to level, but I'd explored nearly everything. Ended up needing to kill a lvl 9 goblin (first strike, so they always hit) that would kill me in 1 shot. Unloaded all my mana potions as fireballs, realised that I was 1 potion short of killing it that way. Had to take a gamble and rely on the 20% chance to dodge that Rogues have. There was a bit of praying. Click. Take damage, ****. SURVIVE? Nandrew and I screamed in joy, we'd both forgot about the 10% damage resist from earlier! 7 xp needed to level, worshipped at an altar to exchange 5 of my max mana for 10 xp. Boom, level 9 with full health and mana again. Killed the final boss in 3 hits and 4 potions. Was doing over 100 damage at the end with bysseps ;)

Unlocked the Assassin and my dungeons now have bandits in them. I ****ing love this game.

DukeOFprunes
02-02-2010, 04:24 PM
Altars? Shops? Is this the same game?

Fengol
02-02-2010, 05:48 PM
dislekcia, you do realise that comment makes you out to be like a tool; who boasts about how great his game is but won't share a link or post a screenshot? And it's not even your game!

dislekcia
02-02-2010, 06:12 PM
Altars? Shops? Is this the same game?

There's a LOT that's been added. Same gameplay, new elements of epic winnage!


dislekcia, you do realise that comment makes you out to be like a tool; who boasts about how great his game is but won't share a link or post a screenshot? And it's not even your game!

Hey, I'm testing here. :P

Nandrew
03-02-2010, 01:53 PM
AND AWAAAAY WE GO!

DESKTOP DUNGEONS VERSION 0.04 IS NOW LIVE AND STUFF! (check beginning of thread)

- MASTER POWERFUL NEW CLASSES WITH THEIR OWN SPECIAL TACTICS AND EFFECTS!
- UNLOCK SHOPS, ITEMS, ENEMIES AND SPECIAL GLYPHS!
- APPEASE A PANTHEON OF TEN DIFFERENT GODS!
- POST YOUR RESULTS ONLINE FOR RANKED DUNGEON RUNS!

... aaaaand a bunch of other stuff. Pfeh, marketing-speak is overrated. :P Enjoy the new version guys, I really hope y'all like the whack of changes and additions!

AND REMEMBER: There's a startling number of tricks and hacks that can be employed to help adventurers get the edge on their opponents. Desktop Dungeons is a very difficult game (especially when you finally unlock Ranked mode), so if you think of a really cool dungeon crawling tip, or want to write a guide to playing with your favourite character, post it here and help your fellow players. You could stand to learn a lot from it, too. ;)

Peace, sunshine and goblin heads!

DukeOFprunes
03-02-2010, 03:17 PM
Not tried the new one yet but I am loving it... IN THE FUTURE

[EDIT] I pimped this thing everywhere that allowed me to.

Squid
03-02-2010, 05:03 PM
Righto, the version is awesome. Just three quick suggestions:

- It would be nice to know how much damage a glyph is doing without having to work it out each time. "4X your level" is cool, but "12 (4X your level)" is better.

- You need an award for defeating the boss without him attacking you you. Something along the lines of MANA POTION WHOREDER (hur hur)

- 10 minute crawls always outlast 10 minutes. Maybe an even shorter mode with a smaller grid? Maybe I just suck?

Nandrew
03-02-2010, 06:46 PM
- 10 minute crawls always outlast 10 minutes. Maybe an even shorter mode with a smaller grid? Maybe I just suck?

Yeah, I also take longer than ten minutes nowadays. I think we both suck.

Dis and Aeq can apparently finish their romps in about ten minutes, and I think that the main obstacle is just related to your point no. 1: there's a lot of maths that has to be performed on the player's side, and while this is delightfully educational (YAAAY!) I'm getting tired of calculating things all the time as well: I'm a rather deliberate thinker, which most people may just interpret as "slow". :P

I'm looking at ways to make decisions faster without making them less meaningful. This should be sorted out in the next version.

DukeOFprunes
03-02-2010, 06:55 PM
Yeah, I also take longer than ten minutes nowadays. I think we both suck.

Dis and Aeq can apparently finish their romps in about ten minutes, and I think that the main obstacle is just related to your point no. 1: there's a lot of maths that has to be performed on the player's side, and while this is delightfully educational (YAAAY!) I'm getting tired of calculating things all the time as well: I'm a rather deliberate thinker, which most people may just interpret as "slow". :P

I'm looking at ways to make decisions faster without making them less meaningful. This should be sorted out in the next version.

Just think of it as a 10-minute average then. Takes me longer too, but do you wanna refer to it as a "10-minute crawler" or a "on average between 8:32 and 19:21 minute crawler"?

So: don't work too hard on making it shorter just yet - but if you do anything, Squid's first suggestion would do a fair bit to shave seconds off the average thinking process.

dislekcia
03-02-2010, 07:08 PM
Nandrew and I had talked about Orb of Zod/Rogue combos earlier and it just happened to me in a ranked game. Sooooo many first strike instant kills :) I think I killed at least 15 monsters without revealing a tile. Heh. Awesome.

-edit- Indiegames notices (http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2010/02/freeware_game_pick_desktop_dun.html), it begins :)

Fengol
04-02-2010, 09:51 AM
PLEASE have a sound off option. When sitting in the office with headphones that sword noise becomes irritating after a while

DukeOFprunes
04-02-2010, 10:11 AM
-edit- Indiegames notices (http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2010/02/freeware_game_pick_desktop_dun.html), it begins :)

Pimp success nr.1! Waiting to see if Play This Thing, Tigsource and Pixel Prospector take note.

Nandrew
04-02-2010, 10:52 AM
Pimp success nr.1! Waiting to see if Play This Thing, Tigsource and Pixel Prospector take note.

Haha! Sir, I know for a fact that Pixel Prospector have at least taken a look at the game: they seem to have a Box.net account of their own, so I was alerted to the download.

Your initiative on this matter is appreciated. Expect candy in the mail. With surprise unicorn balloons.

herman.tulleken
04-02-2010, 10:57 AM
Wow, the new stuff is really great!

A little bug: when you click on the "deactivated" start ranked button, the game crashes (the music starts, but the rest is frozen). There is also something funny going on with the other buttons. Are the last two types of each character supposed to be disabled initially? If so, then it is not working properly (you can select it - it won't highlight, but when you press "Start normal" it goes in and it says "Human Beserker".

I still have a lot to play; will give you some more feedback later.

DukeOFprunes
04-02-2010, 11:04 AM
With surprise unicorn balloons.

Well. Thanks telling me about it & ruining the surprise, then.

Nandrew
04-02-2010, 12:05 PM
Thanks for the feedback thus far. Herman, I've uploaded a quick update to sort out the problem you were describing. The "ranked" match lock actually runs a few checks to make sure that players aren't "cheating" it, so to speak, and I think that you probably did something to make the program go insane when you selected the disabled box. :P Thanks for the spot, that was really clumsy of me!

@DukeOFprunes: you'll still be surprised. Unicorns spray magic forgetness-dust on you before turning into balloons.

@Fengol: Mute. :P Yeah, yeah, fair enough, I'll get a sound button into the next version. Probably should've had one handy already.

Fengol
04-02-2010, 12:20 PM
OMG! OMG! OMG! Finally defeated my first boss and as a fighter. It came down to the wire and I firgured he'd kill me as I kill him and I'd see how Nandrew's code worked out who died first; BUT I COMPLETELY FORGOT I had Pit Dog so I survived the killing blow! Whoop! Whoop!

How can such a seemly small game fill me with such joy!

Nandrew
04-02-2010, 12:28 PM
Nice! That is your first step of many, young DD-padawan. Enjoy the fancy new unlocked class.

herman.tulleken
04-02-2010, 01:01 PM
The "ranked" match lock actually runs a few checks to make sure that players aren't "cheating" it, so to speak, and I think that you probably did something to make the program go insane when you selected the disabled box. :P

He he, I was kind of trying to see if I can get into ranked mode... :*)

Squid
04-02-2010, 09:03 PM
More suggestions:

- I'm guessing that your health turns red when it's below some percentage of your max health. It would be nice if, when engaged in combat, it turned red when your health is less than (or equal) to your opponents attack. (Basically, when you're not going to survive the next blow)

- It would nice be know the XP gain you will get from killing each monster. (I've had to gamble on getting enough XP to level up)

- The number keys should act as quick buttons for your glyph slots. (Repeatedly clicking fireball and then my enemy is tedious)

- Extra score for unused potions. (Maybe left over health and mana at retirement too?)

Also, backwards compatible saves are a must. (If I lose my character in the next update I'll have to flush you out with the babies)

Nandrew
04-02-2010, 09:53 PM
All awesome suggestions! They were fired into my design doc as soon as I read them.

And don't worry, you'll be able to carry profiles forward from here to any future versions. D mentioned this to me as well, so I'll work in a way to silently convert files if it's ever necessary.

brazed
05-02-2010, 05:27 AM
As someone who likes playing games a lot, I just had to pop in here and give my thanks to Nandrew on a job extremely well done.

So:

Thanks for the crazy amount of fun this little gem has provided. You have now qualified to bear on of my children.

Fengol
05-02-2010, 01:05 PM
Does anyone know how to remove Mana Burn? I found you can drink a mana potion and it seems leveling up removes its effects but does is there any other way? Exploring doesn't help :(

Squid
05-02-2010, 01:27 PM
Does anyone know how to remove Mana Burn? I found you can drink a mana potion and it seems leveling up removes its effects but does is there any other way? Exploring doesn't help :(

Certain altars grant immunity. Mana burn is a bitch.

Malorion
05-02-2010, 02:50 PM
Downloaded this at work, tried it, love it!

Awesome game and from reading here, you're clearly thinking carefully about design and gameplay which is great to see. Looking forward to seeing the continuing development.

I think my boss would probably prefer that I don't tell everyone else in the office about it or we'll miss our deadlines!

Got a problem though... downloaded to play at home, run it and I get

___________________________________________
ERROR in
action number 1
of Create Event
for object SelectWatch:

Error opening binary file.


FWIW, I'm running on XP Pro, plenty of RAM, disk space, grunt, etc. Checked attribs on the unzipped folder and files to make sure they're not Read Only or anything silly. Copied to different disks, same result.

Any ideas?

--
Cheers,

Mal
---
Tongue-tied and twisted,
Just an Earth-bound misfit, I.
- Learning To Fly - Pink Floyd

Nandrew
05-02-2010, 03:37 PM
Hey Mal! Thanks for the feedback, glad you're enjoying it.

When you moved the game to your home PC, did you remember to carry the "chardata" subfolder with it? I recreated that error on my computer by removing that folder and I think that's what's happening here.

"chardata" doesn't need to have any files in it (the game creates new ones whenever you enter a profile name) but the folder itself MUST exist, otherwise the program goes insane. :P

I'll fix that up in the next release, but for now I hope this suggestion applies. If it doesn't, there's probably a more devious problem which I'll have to look into with more detail.

DukeOFprunes
05-02-2010, 03:42 PM
Someone on indiegames found the LEMMISI trick. Great success!

Fengol
05-02-2010, 04:36 PM
I'm not sure if this is a bug or not but LEMMISI doesn't cost anything although it's marked at 3 Mana. I'm playing as a Halfling Priest

Aequitas
05-02-2010, 06:14 PM
@Fengol: .... just think about it for a sec

dislekcia
05-02-2010, 07:32 PM
I'm not sure if this is a bug or not but LEMMISI doesn't cost anything although it's marked at 3 Mana. I'm playing as a Halfling Priest

I think you'll find it costs 3 to cast and reveals 3 squares. Try casting it with 2 mana ;)

Chippit
05-02-2010, 07:34 PM
In fact, it can be profitable with the right classes. ;)

EDIT: ninja'd :<

Malorion
05-02-2010, 11:57 PM
Thanks, Nandrew, adding an empty chardata folder did the trick.

I'd actually re-downloaded it instead of copying the one from work and it turns out the missing folder is due to a bug in the version of IZArc I've got. Rather than hitting the Extract button, I just dragged the DeskDungeon_004 folder to where I wanted it but it didn't recreate the empty chardata folder. I've just tested by using the Extract button and it works fine.

Now I can start trying to unlock some more goodies :)

I must say that as a fan of unlockables I think you picked the right path with the adding of extra classes, baddies, etc as the player progresses. I can't help wondering about your final score though. Do your awards just go towards your last score and does that have any bearing on anything in the future? It'd be nice to have a profile page that shows some running stats like total of each type of monster killed (but only show their names as they're unlocked so as not to spoil things), total damage dealt, total mana used, etc. Perhaps even an accumulated score and have some unlockables tied to some of those stats. I'm kinda hoping you've thought of more unlockables already and have been trying to figure out a way for the player to get them... now you have one ;) Also, I don't know that I'd necessarily tell people about them all. Surprises are always nice :)

Cheers,

Mal

Squid
06-02-2010, 12:14 AM
Okay, so I've been playing a LOT of this lately:

- I find I've got almost no chance of winning unless I find an attack glyph pretty early on. I think you should try to balance this a bit. Maybe find a way to make mana useful early on? Or, grant an attack bonus if you have no glyphs equipped, something like that?

- The game is frustratingly unforgiving. I know it's meant to be hard, but all I want is a dialog that gives you the opportunity to undo your last attack when you die. A simple "Woah, are you sure you want to do that?" would do the trick. This will not only save the players from death at the hands of slight miscalculations or oversights (Happens all the friggin' time!) but, it will help with miss clicks. I can't count the number of times I've accidentally killed myself while trying to explore, or failed failed to properly click the fireball before clicking my foe. Seriously though, this would make the game far more accessible to new players, and emphasize the puzzle aspect. Also, if you still want to force the player to be prefect, you can just disable the feature for ranked matches.

- When you mouse over a medkit (Is that what they are?) the amount of health they will heal should be shown. The game is all about numbers, you need to give the players the numbers when they want them.

More to come...

[EDIT]

Sigh... I keep getting dungoens with loads of dead space too.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8784/trappedq.jpg

^^ Also, the levels on those half shaded enemy blocks are really hard to read.

Azimuth
06-02-2010, 12:19 AM
- When you mouse over a medkit (Is that what they are?) the amount of health they will heal should be shown. The game is all about numbers, you need to give the players the numbers when they want them.


Those aren't medkits - they increase your total health.

I'm kinda surprised you don't roll over to a new dungeon once you defeat the boss. I mean, I get that it's a 10-minute dungeon crawl, but I've got more than 10 minutes to sink into this at any time. And so would a lot of other people, I'd imagine. It would also make for interesting leaderboards - surviving through several dungeons in one run would be quite a feat.

Squid
06-02-2010, 12:29 AM
Those aren't medkits - they increase your total health.

:O

See! Rollover text! Even seasoned geniuses are getting confused here!

Righto, so how about implementing what I thought they were then. Medkits that you can use without your enemy regaining health. Much like the blood pools for Blood mages.

SmallGods
06-02-2010, 12:41 AM
I actually registered just so I could post here - seriously impressed with this game and massive kudos to you! It's proving horribly addictive; so simple, yet full to bursting with that god-awful "just one more go..." appeal that has caused me to nearly fail exams and get fired from work in the past. My potential unemployment is on your hands dammit! ^_^

Anyways, I believe I may have found a minor bug in what is otherwise proving to be an amazing game. With a fireball and first strike glyph (sorry I don't know the proper names off the top of my head!) equipped, cast the fireball spell but don't choose a target. Then, cast the first strike glyph. It will let you cast both happily, even though in my case it pushed me into negative mana; I believe this is because the fireball doesn't extract mana off until you launch, but the mana check is done pre-casting? I'll attempt to replicate again (not 100% easy due to the random nature) but pretty sure it happens every time.

Found by accident when I forgot to cast one before the other!

While I'm here, just to be cheeky, it would be cool if you could see your class abilities when you mouse over yourself maybe? I haven't been playing that long, and often find myself forgetting what abilities I have to get myself out a tight situation! Aside from that, pretty happy really, keep up the good work, and I look forward to whatever comes next!

Chippit
06-02-2010, 01:45 AM
Okay, so I've been playing a LOT of this lately:

- I find I've got almost no chance of winning unless I find an attack glyph pretty early on. I think you should try to balance this a bit. Maybe find a way to make mana useful early on? Or, grant an attack bonus if you have no glyphs equipped, something like that?

- The game is frustratingly unforgiving. I know it's meant to be hard, but all I want is a dialog that gives you the opportunity to undo your last attack when you die. A simple "Woah, are you sure you want to do that?" would do the trick. This will not only save the players from death at the hands of slight miscalculations or oversights (Happens all the friggin' time!) but, it will help with miss clicks. I can't count the number of times I've accidentally killed myself while trying to explore, or failed failed to properly click the fireball before clicking my foe. Seriously though, this would make the game far more accessible to new players, and emphasize the puzzle aspect. Also, if you still want to force the player to be prefect, you can just disable the feature for ranked matches.


Irunno, I don't find the game particularly difficult or unfair, tbh. I've had far more frustration with Spelunky. This game's quite fair.

As for the misclicking, I've done that once or twice myself. I think this can be solved by moving the character next to an enemy with the first click and only attacking when you're already adjacent to it. Or, given that you have the red line indicating a path, so why not draw a red circle around an enemy if a click will cause an attack as well? A context-sensitive cursor would probably help with this too (you'll be surprised how effective something so simple is). You can't really have enough visual feedback or similar indicators, really.

Also, I'm not particularly fond of a 'whoops, you ****ed up, try again' idea, because it might ruin the whole risk appeal that's integral to a roguelike experience. Roguelikes are roguelikes because death is always a risk. And it's not really so bad here because the game is kinda low investment. You die, so what? You've lost 10 minutes of play, but you've still gained some gold (probably). Try again!

As for the fireball issue, it's mostly because the spells select on mouse release, not mouse click. I can kinda understand why that is, but it might be better to change that. That way you won't get those 'but I clicked that' moments just because you moved the mouse away before you released the button (which isn't really an unnatural action in a game). Or, simply, more visual feedback!



Sigh... I keep getting dungoens with loads of dead space too.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8784/trappedq.jpg

You probably could've killed the level 2 goat, silly. It'd likely only have cost you a potion. And then who knows what riches might follow?!

dislekcia
06-02-2010, 01:56 AM
Whoa! All this feedback is awesome! (Welcome new users, Nandrew's games bring all the players to the yard)

I know that Nandrew is trying new elements in the game at the moment and is looking for as much feedback as possible right now. Some of the game's rules are things we can't talk about because he's hoping the community will figure them out and start writing guides and the like. So hopefully I don't let something slip... Suffice to say that we have names for certain techniques that give you advantages ;)

Malorion: Nandrew does indeed have more unlockables planned. I think you'll like the way they're implemented - some are very similar to what you suggested. Great idea on the stat recording. I think I can get him to shoehorn that in if I whine enough.

Squid: The game is still a roguelike at its core, so you're going to die a lot. That's part of the package. You do still earn gold from "failed" playthroughs though, so they do help you succeed later on. I know it can be frustrating to get stuck with no way out of a set of enemies, but sometimes you can pull through if you're crafty enough... If I can't, I tend to just play again ;) Mouseovers need to be expanded, plus I think the game could do with a sort of glossary of what things do. Although Nandrew would probably say that players should create that.

The undo idea is something that's been talked about actually. Both from a tutorial perspective and as a possible purchase/setting in the game. I'm sure it'll make an appearance later. Also, I tend to play in fullscreen mode so the levels are easier to see... Hmmm. Wonder what Nandrew will think of medkits.

SmallGods: Welcome! Good find on that bug, reported it to Nandrew. The class abilities thing is something we've been thinking about. The current idea is to create a popup info box when you click on your character that shows class, abilities, shop items bought and maybe even stats from the level you're currently playing: Monsters killed, damage done, etc.

Azimuth
06-02-2010, 02:25 AM
Another suggestion - a mid-screen LEVEL UP notification.

Nandrew
06-02-2010, 04:50 AM
Oh wow, guess I should have been around the forums a lot more this evening. Thanks for the chunk of feedback, everyone -- and welcome to new members!

I'll be putting a lot of these suggestions into action and fixing bugs as I find them. In particular, I'm looking at improving clarity and the like with mouseovers where they're needed, though as Dis has pointed out there will also be a lot of information that I want the community to discover and share amongst themselves. Much more organic and fun that way.

And Squid: I already have medkits in the game, and you can pick them up and use them whenever you want. I prefer to call them health potions, though. :P


AND REMEMBER, EVERYONE: general rule of thumb is that if you find this game to be difficult, that's because it really, truly is. If you find it to be absolutely impossible, on the other hand, then it probably means that you need to figure out some more clever tricks to help you get through at least part of the time. Use all tools to your advantage, treat everything as a resource and waste absolutely nothing if at all possible. Literally every movement decision you make can be important if you take the time to figure out why. ;)

Development on the next version (0.5) will hopefully be steady over the next week or so. It's looking to be at least as significant a jump as the one between 0.2 and 0.4, giving veteran players far more toys to fiddle about with while helping newbies ease themselves in even more. Of course, that's not to say that the difficulty will go down at all ... but I reckon that none of you are playing this game for its simplicity anyway. :D

Squid
06-02-2010, 11:35 AM
Irunno, I don't find the game particularly difficult or unfair, tbh.

I'm not suggesting the game be made easier, the difficulty is half the appeal. I'm just suggesting Nandrew tries to find a way to punish the player less for accidents and slight miscalculations.

Azimuth
06-02-2010, 11:52 AM
I totally agree with addressing the issue of accidental clicking, but dying at the final boss is dying. Giving players a chance to retry that is pointless. It's a roguelike - you're supposed to die a lot. :P

Nandrew
06-02-2010, 01:40 PM
I'll try to make things as clear and unambiguous as humanly possible for clicking -- perhaps, as suggested, moving the hero next to an enemy before making them attack, for example -- but if you die through a *miscalculation*, I'm actually tempted to just leave it at that. I've seen it happen from time to time and it can genuinely be a bummer, but at the same time ... well, you've miscalculated! Punishment for miscalculation in a game like this should rightfully be death. :P

The Dash
06-02-2010, 06:56 PM
I have finally booted into Windows and so am only playing the game now :'-(

One problem so far, collecting gold on the far left of the map means that the number is off the screen. IE you dont know how much gold you just picked up because all you can see is the word "gold"

coendou
07-02-2010, 01:36 AM
hey there, new to this forum as well

i had the suggestion that maybe you'd get a boss kill if you petrify him and destruct the stone he was. cause after 5 tries got lucky on my wizard and defeated my first boss that had little over 150-200 hp (don't really remember) and now all bosses i seem to get have a minimum of 300 hp and 150 attack, and this has been going on for over 200 tries, it doen't matter if i manage to kill everything in the field, have potions left and be as strong as possible, most bosses still one hit me, even after using all spells available to weaken him. This makes the game (for me, but i'm known for my bad luck -.-') kind of impossible to progress in, wich is kind of sad.

i mean, spelunky is supposed to be hard for a roguelike, but i finished that game after like 200 tries, i can't even get 2unlockables in here with that XD.

DesertDweller
07-02-2010, 02:18 AM
I must admit that even after winning the LEMMISI award, and using the trick for several later games, I just now realized why you don't lose any mana...

I think the difficulty level is well balanced. I have to do a lot of mental calculations.

One thing I find particularly useful, is to get the destroy the highest level units you possibly can at first, then slowly allow yourself to get the easier ones as you progress. Then you get TONS of bonuses for experience (beat a level 9 with a level 5 once :D), and by the time you're level 8 you can probably pick one really hard enemy that you can just skip killing before moving on to the boss.

I really liked the Monk. What I did was be a Human and destroy nearly all my glyphs. Near the end you have a decently powerful level 8 or 9 character, and 50% shielding to anything.

Combine that with a lucky 20% physical resistance and the game looks almost too easy. :)

I actually find that a lot of times I destroy absolutely everything and still have stuff to spare.

My favorite unit however is the Warlord. you can absolutely crush 1-3 higher level units regularly if you carefully use the special glyph. :)

Absolutely fantastic game. Sometimes I just wish it wasn't over so quick. :P

I did however get an error when I accepted a god's offer to reduce my max hp by 10 for something else. I only had 10 max hp, so I got a divide by 0 error. (maybe use max(hpmax-10, 1) or something similar?)

Nandrew
07-02-2010, 02:37 AM
@DesertDweller: nice tips! It's cool to see that you've discovered some good leveling techniques!

Thanks for the spot about Dracul's altar. Seems a lot of people are trying to use it when they're only on 10 HP (which honestly surprises me, since that means the altar would effectively kill them! :P ) and I'll be fixing that divide by zero error in the next version ... of course, that will probably just mean that we'll have far fewer errors and more dead characters instead. :P

@coendou: maybe somebody here will try writing a Wizard guide to help you out: sounds like you're having a little *too* much trouble progressing. :) Though I find it odd how you mention most bosses having upward of 150 damage ... there's only a single boss I know of which fits that description, and I find it strange that you'd get it all 200 times!

I'm tempted to throw in a few hints here (and in other discussions related to this game!), but one rule that I'm trying to stick to is relying on the community to provide help and collectively figure things out for themselves. ;)

DesertDweller
07-02-2010, 07:32 AM
Tips for Wizard:

Be Human or Elf. I think those are the best combinations with the wizard. (Human for more balanced game, Elf for an all-out magic hope-your-enemy-isn't golem game)

Find your BurnDayRayz and Bysseps glyphs asap. Destroy all other glyphs unless you really think there's a better use for one. (maybe to satisfy a god first)

Go for your strengths (Gorgon, Brown guy holding two swords, Gray blob, Warlock [only a mild strength]). Any of these guys, particularly the gray blob and gorgon, you should be aiming for levels 1-2 and maybe even three above you. The goal is to kill them without taking more than one hit; do the math first to save yourself from heartbreak later.

For the most part ignore upper level Meatheads and Zombies (or golems if you've unlocked them). These guys have more hitpoints than normal, and are typically harder to kill via magic only. If you can get to level 8 at least without touching them then don't bother, especially if it would require a potion.

Determine who the boss is ASAP. If you're fighting a ghost/blue mana burn guy, a warlock, or the brown guy holding two swords, you'll be OKAY.

If you're fighting Frank the Zombie or a Meathead, there's no shame in saving time by retiring early. ;)

It also helps to find the god quickly to make sure you don't rid yourself of a glyph that could have earned you some easy extra hitpoints or damage or something. :)

Hope that helps!

Fengol
07-02-2010, 07:39 AM
Another one of those "Squid in a hole" problems.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/squidinahole.png

I've been thinking that maybe you can add a little more intelligence your randomness and use concentric circles of difficultly expanding out from the player for placement (i.e. the closer the monster is to the player's starting position tthe more likely it is to be easier versus some distance from the player's starting position).

SkinkLizzard
07-02-2010, 09:41 AM
woot finally killed a boss with the rogue, decided that human rogue wasn't working for
me so went with a dwarf rogue to get my health looking a little better.
boss was Medusa, dodged her first attack then used health potions to return myself to 100% after her second, her death followed on the third.
my little rogue was doing 90 damage with the aid of the bysseps glyph.
I also avoided serpents like the plague only killing those I could safely one shot.

Graal
07-02-2010, 10:43 AM
One question. How do you destroy a wall?

And Arrrghhh! I keep running out of decent level monsters just before the big boss battle. Then I usually stuck with a level 6 or 7 character, all tiles explored and no potions left, with 3 or 4 level 8 or 9 enemies.

Awesome game is awesome.

Azimuth
07-02-2010, 11:52 AM
Would it be possible for DD to search for existing profiles on startup? I know it's such a small thing, but having to re-enter my name each time is lame-o.

BlackShipsFillt
07-02-2010, 12:29 PM
Looking awesome... I haven't given it a proper try yet, but I'm liking the new features.

I'm a little bothered by the Ranked feature though. Only getting to save my score after 9 games is a little depressing. I've played the game already, so I may as well play Ranked from the beginning, and playing through 9 dead games feels like a waste of my time. At the back of my mind I'm thinking that within those 9 games may be The Perfect Game, the one where everything goes my way and I get an unbelievable score, but then it lost, and noone will believe it.

I don't mind having to unlock characters, that is fun, but having all record of my achievements erased is more than a little painful.

Azimuth
07-02-2010, 01:15 PM
I'm a little bothered by the Ranked feature though. Only getting to save my score after 9 games is a little depressing. I've played the game already, so I may as well play Ranked from the beginning, and playing through 9 dead games feels like a waste of my time. At the back of my mind I'm thinking that within those 9 games may be The Perfect Game, the one where everything goes my way and I get an unbelievable score, but then it lost, and noone will believe it.

I don't mind having to unlock characters, that is fun, but having all record of my achievements erased is more than a little painful.

Quoted for truthiness.

Chippit
07-02-2010, 01:45 PM
Lol Warlord. Poison + Dodge glyphs = you > *.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n234/ch1ppit/warlord.jpg

And on this note, "Cocky, aren't you" should totally be worth more score than that.

dislekcia
07-02-2010, 03:09 PM
Determine who the boss is ASAP. If you're fighting a ghost/blue mana burn guy, a warlock, or the brown guy holding two swords, you'll be OKAY.

If you're fighting Frank the Zombie or a Meathead, there's no shame in saving time by retiring early. ;)

I've taken Frank out with a wizard before ;) Don't dismiss the other glyphs too quickly, they can be very useful - especially the ones you unlock with some of the later classes. The classes with "passive" conversion results are great glyph hoarders (and make good wizards too), why convert a glyph now when it can be a mana potion when you need it?


Another one of those "Squid in a hole" problems.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q312/Fengol/squidinahole.png

Impossible dungeons aren't rare. AFAIK in this proto there's no logic built around testing dungeon playability at all. Nandrew and I have been talking about various strategies to make the procedural generation less random, but there's just something charming about knowing you beat a dungeon that didn't try to mollycoddle you at all. TBH, an impossible dungeon is usually only 2-3 minutes of wasted play, if that.

Also, there's 1 more block next to the Wraith boss that might not have been a wall... And you converted 2 glyphs, if either of them were WeytWut or PisOrf, you could have used them to escape. Generally it's a bad idea to convert glyphs early on as human, your damage bonus doesn't make much difference until the 10% counts for more than 1 damage point ;)


One question. How do you destroy a wall?

And Arrrghhh! I keep running out of decent level monsters just before the big boss battle. Then I usually stuck with a level 6 or 7 character, all tiles explored and no potions left, with 3 or 4 level 8 or 9 enemies.

The EndIsWal glyph destroys walls. It sounds like you're over-exploring. Remember that there's no benefit to the player from being on full health and revealing more tiles, that's sort of wasting a resource...


Looking awesome... I haven't given it a proper try yet, but I'm liking the new features.

I'm a little bothered by the Ranked feature though. Only getting to save my score after 9 games is a little depressing. I've played the game already, so I may as well play Ranked from the beginning, and playing through 9 dead games feels like a waste of my time. At the back of my mind I'm thinking that within those 9 games may be The Perfect Game, the one where everything goes my way and I get an unbelievable score, but then it lost, and noone will believe it.

I don't mind having to unlock characters, that is fun, but having all record of my achievements erased is more than a little painful.

Quite a lot has been added to the game since the version you last played. Poison and mana burn make a big difference, as do some of the rebalanced monsters. The classes are also quite different, so while you'll be good at the game, it's not 100% the same.

Ranked games are quite a lot more difficult: Monsters have more health and deal more damage, so you're not going to hit the perfect ranked playthrough in non-ranked games. It helps to think of ranked and non-ranked scores as completely separate. Ranked is pretty much Nandrew responding to your "This game's too easy" comments ;)


Lol Warlord. Poison + Dodge glyphs = you > *.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n234/ch1ppit/warlord.jpg

And on this note, "Cocky, aren't you" should totally be worth more score than that.

Nice! Ranked? Which boss did you get?

The Dash
07-02-2010, 03:54 PM
Nandrew, i'm sure there is meant to be some sort of message once the dungeon runs out of monsters?

I was a Dwarf Monk and used Imawal to brick up the last 4or 5 monsters (i got the dungeon boss as a starting monster next to me, so i bricked him up early) The dungeon is empty but i got no message saying that i've won (yes yes i know, using imawal doesn't exactly count)
Still got the Unstoppable bonus at the end though.

Also, how about a simple save results button that dumps your effort to a screenshot or textfile? Not a necessity but would be awesome to have

DAMMIT. just noticed that bricking up the boss doesn't unlock the next class. :[

Azimuth
07-02-2010, 05:29 PM
I'm not sure why you've made spells more expensive to cast with upgraded classes. The spells don't have any extra effect, and characters don't have additional mana resources. The only apparent reason, therefore, is simply to make spellcasting less viable - but given the increased difficulty of enemies encountered, this seems self-defeating.

[EDIT] Hmmm, this only seems to affect the Berserker. Well, as far as I'm aware, anyway - the only second tier classes I've unlocked are Rogue and Berserker.

Nandrew
07-02-2010, 05:37 PM
I must admit, Fengol: for reasons that D has pointed out, I'm not *quite* convinced that you were 100% stuck there. :P

In any case, reports of impossible dungeons are still rare enough that I'm going to let them slide ... for now. I plan on revamping the layout and putting a focus on set pieces and stuff some time in the future anyway (I've been saying this for ages, but yeah ...). Will probably seek assistance from D or Aeq when I attempt this, because I just don't seem to be getting satisfactory results on my own.

@Azi, Blackships: the problem is that non-ranked matches are genuinely easier, so I can't record scores for them. Not only are there less complicated monsters to fight, but they don't have as much health or attack damage. So, by necessity, players have to go on the proving grounds first. It's also a nice unlock incentive for those who are truly into their score-mongery. ;)

@The_Dash: I like your idea, and at some point I'd like to put it in so that I can start data-mining people's play sessions to see what they do and figure out better balancing techniques. And yeah, bricking a boss counts as "cheating". :P It'll give you a bit of score if you can't defeat it entirely, but otherwise offers no unlocks. It's more a Ranked match thing.

@Chippit: I'll consider changing the values of certain achievements in the next version, and making more achievements to grab too!

Nandrew
07-02-2010, 05:44 PM
[EDIT] Hmmm, this only seems to affect the Berserker. Well, as far as I'm aware, anyway - the only second tier classes I've unlocked are Rogue and Berserker.

Yeah, it's literally only the Berserker. Wizards are cheaper, Berserkers are more expensive ... all other classes cost the same. ;)

coendou
08-02-2010, 12:36 AM
checked this, seemed to be over 100 most of the times, but sometimes i get lucky and get giant meat boy having less then 100 but over 600 hp O_O, besides, is it just something i experience alone, or does the percentage right next to your attack have no effect whatsoever, i don't do more damage or anything

[QUOTE=Nandrew;260590]

@coendou: maybe somebody here will try writing a Wizard guide to help you out: sounds like you're having a little *too* much trouble progressing. :) Though I find it odd how you mention most bosses having upward of 150 damage ... there's only a single boss I know of which fits that description, and I find it strange that you'd get it all 200 times!

coendou
08-02-2010, 01:14 AM
ok figured out the attack bonus, man a brief description or tutorial would sure come in handy, still such a noob in this one ^^


whoot i guess admitting helps, 10 seconds after i finished as priest :p

Speusippus
08-02-2010, 02:24 AM
Hello. Great game! Here's how I know: Almost every game I play, I come within exactly one hit of winning, and when I win, it's typically with my very last possible hit. That, I think, is a sign of a well designed game. It means the math works out. (A few race/class combinations allow me to kill with several hits "left over" and I guess those should be thought of as the "overpowered" combinations. Which are they? I only remember one right now--halfling priest. The 100% effective potions, plus the ability to create potions, makes for a quick game indeed. That may be the one, in fact, where I ended up killing the boss when I was still at level 6! IIRC. Def done it at level 7, and I'm pretty sure I'm remembering having done it at level 6 once.)

Thought I'd throw out things I think I know about the game, for note comparison purposes.

First of all, I'll note I have beaten the game only as the following:

Fighter
Berserker
Priest
Monk
Paladin
Wizard
Sorceror

So take any remarks I make with as many grains of salt as is necessitated by my lack of experience.

Second of all, it should be noted that there are some minor spoilers (concerning math and tactics) in what follows. I don't think it's anything anyone would regret reading unless they are serious about figuring absolutely everything out for themselves.

Some general tactical ideas I've cottoned on to as I've played:

1. Minimize exploration. Of course! But this has more implications than I realized at first. For example, there's no need to go grabbing money just because I see it on the ground. It will be there when I need it! Similarly, potions and glyphs need not be grabbed just because they're there. If it will waste unexplored territory, don't grab it. Wait until your health and/or mana is down, then go grab something bordering on the unexplored. I will usually go ahead and grab weapon and shield upgrades--but probably a player more patient than me can do better by calculating out whether he actually needs it at the moment or not.

2. Prioritize the highest level monster you can kill. Each monster is worth (I believe) MonsterLevel + 3 * (MonsterLevel - PlayerLevel) in experience. (Though sometimes it seems to be off by one for reasons I haven't been able to discern.) So suppose you're at level three, and there's both a level three and a level four monster on the screen waiting to be killed. Suppose killing either will bump you up a level. If you kill the level three monster first, then your total experience for the two kills will add up to 7. But if you kill the level four monster first, then your total experience will add up to 10. You get more experience in the long run if you prioritize higher-level monsters. Once you reach level three, typically you start being able to kill level four monsters if you are careful. And if there are monsters with special attack types that you have a defense against, or with special vulnerabilities your character can take care of (for example undead when you are a priest. or dragons and warlocks when you are a berserker) then you can often kill creatures two or even three levels above you. Moreover, in my experience, starting around level five or so it is not at all uncommon that very careful management can let you kill monsters two levels above you with almost complete reliability. (Depends on your class to some extent, though. The ability to cast multiple fireballs really helps...)

3. In my winning games, I have almost never used a potion except when fighting the boss. At that point, I use almost all of them.

4. Snakes and Wraiths are great candidates for level-change kills (by which I mean, the final kill at a particular experience level, bumping you up to the next experience level.) For bumping up to the next level cures you of all mana burn and poison effects, meaning the Snake and Wraith won't leave you scarred with these effects post-battle. They are made even more inviting candidates by the fact that both tend to have low HP, making them fairly easy targets when you can ignore their poison and mana burn effects. And the low HP makes it possible to kill them when they are quite a few levels higher than you. (Two, or even three levels higher in my experience.)

5. Attack number is (PlayerLevel * 5) + ((Percentage / 100) * PlayerLevel * 5). Attack bonus icons in the dungeon add 10 percent to Percentage. Bonuses from glyphs and character abilities also are added to Percentage.

6. HP is (PlayerLevel * (10 + Bonus)) where Bonus == the number of "red cross" icons you've picked up.

7. Bloodmage Bloodpool regen is equal to Bloodmage level.

8. I do not know how potion effects are calculated. At one point, I had a level six character getting 31 HP per potion. Is it 5 * PlayerLevel + 1? I haven't confirmed this yet.

Those are all the general remarks I can think of for now. I'll also discuss glyphs in what follows.

First a general remark. It's often tempting to pick up glyphs on sight and either keep them or destroy them. But it may often be best to leave glyphs on the ground until you know what you want to do with them, or until you need them. For example, Lemmisi is crucial in almost all of my games--but not until towards the end. So I leave it on the ground til then, so I'll have room for others. I'll have to convert one in order to pick up Lemmisi--but by that point, there's usually a glyph or two I don't need anymore.

About particular glyphs:

The fireball glyph seems useful for almost every character, and crucial for a few (including especially the wizard). At high levels, the fireball's damage can do a lot to let you kill monsters one or two levels higher than you.

Similarly, Lemmisi seems very useful if not crucial for almost every class (possibly not for berserker since it becomes so expensive). Typically I use it in the leadup to the boss battle, to get my health and mana up without using potions.

Bysseps seem completely useless to me. It almost never changes the number of blows it takes to kill an enemy, and if it doesn't change that number, it seems it has no use.

The "first hit" glyph seems to me to be absolutely crucial. Simply put, it adds one to the number of blows you can land without dying. That lets you kill a lot more monsters than you could otherwise.

I can not find a use for the petrify glyph other than to satisfy the god who wants me to petrify a monster. I always convert it as soon as I discover the dungeon's altar.

The monster-teleport-away and wall-destruction glyphs seem to me to be an either-or proposition. One is more expensive than the other--I forget which--so once I've discovered both glyphs (if both are on the map) I destroy the more expensive one. I don't destroy the wall-destruction glyph til I've discovered the altar, since one of the gods wants me to destroy a wall. The use for both of these glyphs is for gaining access to parts of the map blocked by monsters you can't kill. Once the entire map is accessible, it's safe to convert both of these glyphs. (Be careful, though, if you're using the teleport-away glyph for this purpose, as it sometimes will cause the monster ot block a passage that wasn't blocked before!)

I can not find a use for the glyph that teleports a monster of your own level to you. Someone suggested it helps conserve exploration, but I am not sure it works out that way. You will have fewer monsters "out there" to discover, which might seem to decrease necessary exploration--but they are more "spaced out" on average which will tend to increase necessary exploration. I suspect it evens out, though I don't really know how to do the math here.

I think that's all the pre-unlock glyphs. I won't say anything about the glyphs you unlock for winning with certain classes, as I don't have enough experience with these to say anything useful.

I was going to try to say something about each of the classes I've won as, but this post is getting long and in any case my memory is failing me. I'd have to play through a class again to remind myself of what I know about how to play that class.

I hope the above was interesting, helpful, and/or wrong in a constructive way...

ETA: Also, by the way, I have no idea how to kill the Meat Man boss, no matter what class I'm playing. How is it possible to take down so many monster hit points?!

DesertDweller
08-02-2010, 07:12 AM
@Speusippus

Just to add onto tip #4, there's another enemy (it's brown, don't remember the name) that has both poison and mana burn. As such, it's incredibly weak and you can almost always destroy it even when it's two levels above you.

Speusippus
08-02-2010, 07:20 AM
Hadn't encountered that one yet. I'm guessing it unlocks somewhere down the Thief line of classes...

A couple of things to add to the above:

When exploring, cut corners. By this I mean make sure to go diagonally across a corner rather than going straight in one direction then turning 90 degrees. This leaves a blank space in the corner opposite the block you're turning around, giving you a bit of health and mana regen later on when you want to use it.

Regarding potions, I just can't figure out how regen amounts are calculated. I just played a couple of berserker games. In one, I had a level seven or eight berserkr getting only three mana per mana potion. Yet in the next game he was getting something like six or seven.

Maybe it's a percentage of total mana?

The Dash
08-02-2010, 09:14 AM
http://i50.tinypic.com/9jkq5z.jpg

uhhhh. I are speshil?

Fought a viper as my first enemy, then took a hit or two from a Goblin when i noticed this (Something to do with the vipers poison?)

Fengol
08-02-2010, 10:50 AM
BTW, did anyone see or already post this article? http://news.bigdownload.com/2010/02/05/freeware-friday-desktop-dungeons/

DukeOFprunes
08-02-2010, 11:11 AM
Here (http://gamerblips.dailyradar.com/story/freeware-friday-desktop-dungeons/) you go, more exposuresauce.

EDIT: Damn, googlewhack this thing and it's popping up everywhere like here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12089726) too.

Nandrew, do people who do write-ups on this thing let you know about it?

The Dash
08-02-2010, 12:02 PM
Oopth. Another bug. When you travel to an alter it doesn't always display the message. Its because you can click right next to the alter to travel to the block, but you have to click on the alter itself to display the message. Know what i mean?

Chippit
08-02-2010, 01:31 PM
2. Prioritize the highest level monster you can kill. Each monster is worth (I believe) MonsterLevel + 3 * (MonsterLevel - PlayerLevel) in experience. (Though sometimes it seems to be off by one for reasons I haven't been able to discern.) So suppose you're at level three, and there's both a level three and a level four monster on the screen waiting to be killed. Suppose killing either will bump you up a level. If you kill the level three monster first, then your total experience for the two kills will add up to 7. But if you kill the level four monster first, then your total experience will add up to 10. You get more experience in the long run if you prioritize higher-level monsters. Once you reach level three, typically you start being able to kill level four monsters if you are careful. And if there are monsters with special attack types that you have a defense against, or with special vulnerabilities your character can take care of (for example undead when you are a priest. or dragons and warlocks when you are a berserker) then you can often kill creatures two or even three levels above you. Moreover, in my experience, starting around level five or so it is not at all uncommon that very careful management can let you kill monsters two levels above you with almost complete reliability. (Depends on your class to some extent, though. The ability to cast multiple fireballs really helps...)

You're not quite right here. You're correct in saying that a monster's base experience is equal to its level (when it's your level or lower), but the bonus for monsters a higher level than you is n * (n + 1), where n is the difference in your levels. So this means killing a monster 4 levels above you (when possible) nets you 20 bonus experience.


I do not know how potion effects are calculated. At one point, I had a level six character getting 31 HP per potion. Is it 5 * PlayerLevel + 1? I haven't confirmed this yet.

I think all potion effects (health and mana) are related to your maximum value, and not directly to your level. Admittedly, I've not paid much attention to the exact values, but it appears to be somewhere in the 30%-40% region (rounded down, as all the values in the game appear to be). I do remember my wizard that had 23 or 24 mana still only regenerated 10 mana per potion, so it's not particularly generous. It's also possible the formula for health and mana are slightly different, I'm really not sure.



Also, by the way, I have no idea how to kill the Meat Man boss, no matter what class I'm playing. How is it possible to take down so many monster hit points?!
I think I've managed to kill him once, but I got a low HP variant (it appears to vary quite drastically; I've seen one with over 900 hp! :O), but I agree that he's definitely the hardest of all the bosses.

coendou
08-02-2010, 06:48 PM
this might be a stupid question, but i checked this with pen and paper not to lose count, 20 times after one another i got a goat while i was a gnome sorceror, is there any chance it is race/class related? (after 20 times i gave up on sorceror lol)

dislekcia
08-02-2010, 07:08 PM
this might be a stupid question, but i checked this with pen and paper not to lose count, 20 times after one another i got a goat while i was a gnome sorceror, is there any chance it is race/class related? (after 20 times i gave up on sorceror lol)

No, it's completely random. Specific challenge dungeons will do certain class/monster combinations, but those aren't in this version.

neongrey
08-02-2010, 07:36 PM
I've been playing this game like crazy over the past few days, and I'm really loving it.

I did notice a couple things, though; while going through the various classes, I often found myself going for the boss earlier and earlier (I think as early as level 5, though I think my blood mage may even have gone at level 4), but the achievements stop at level 8. I think ganking the boss so early ought to be worth a few more points than that, even if it's the result of a sub-optimal play-style. :)

Another thing I think would be neat, and this obviously couldn't be used in ranked matches games because you'd get some absurd combos, would be able to mix and match up to three of the various class traits on a character. I think it'd be a lot of fun both for trying for hilariously easy runs, and for extreme challenge games.

I also think, and I'm not sure if there's plans in this direction or not, that this would really be a great game for a mobile phone port (android is my horse in this race, but there's always the iphone); it plays quickly and and the controls are dead simple. Any plans?

e: Oh... I don't know, but I sort of feel like the rogue and the assassin's class names are kind of backwards. The rogue feels a lot more like an assassin to me with its massive attack boost and permanent first stroke, and the assassin feels a lot sneakier to me, with its emphasis on exploring the areas around monsters in order to first-strike, etc. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

brazed
08-02-2010, 07:54 PM
If you turn the boss to stone the game doesn't end. I've cleared the level, but no end game in sight.

neongrey
08-02-2010, 07:59 PM
The game only ends automatically when you die. You'll have to retire whether you petrify or kill the boss.

Astrimedes
08-02-2010, 10:21 PM
First of all, great game! It really grows on you.

I just started playing today, and I noticed something that I assumed to be a bug...

Playing as a Level 1 Human Thief, I picked up and started using LEMMISI. It does not seem to cost mana! I stood there and cast it 5 or so times, still at full mana. Moved a couple squares, cast it again, still no mana cost.

I took a screenshot of it, if you think this would somehow help let me know and I'll email it to you or something.

Keep up the good work!

Nandrew
08-02-2010, 10:28 PM
Oh wow, where to start? I'm impressed that people are starting to whip out the maths and offer some pretty advanced tips! Really, really cool. :)

A few specific replies here and there:

@DukeOFprunes: heh, no, they don't. :P Guess they assuming that I'm doing my research and looking out for reviews on the net. ;) Or, well, in this case letting other people do that for me. :P

@The_Dash: some interesting bugs, thanks for the spots. I think I know what you mean about the altars ... will investigate.

@neongrey: I'm getting a few reports of players attacking the boss on early levels here and there. May be ironing this out in future versions with rebalancing, but if not I'll be happy to add stacked achievements instead. :)

@Astrimedes: welcome to the DD fold. :P It's a damn difficult game, so be sure to read over this thread if you need any help! It'll also explain LEMMISI if you're confused ... ;)

For the rest: I'm really digging these discussions, so keep 'em coming! Won't comment too much on anything (making it a personal rule to not give away that much info), but I'll be listening in carefully and making balance adjustments as I go.

dislekcia
08-02-2010, 10:38 PM
Holy balls. Someone beat 20k!

http://www.gmhighscores.com/highscores.php?gameid=648

*ahem* elfwizard *cough*

Nandrew
08-02-2010, 10:39 PM
*ahem* elfwizard *cough*

I totally heard that Chippit doesn't like elves, yo.

Azimuth
08-02-2010, 11:17 PM
First of all, great game! It really grows on you.

I just started playing today, and I noticed something that I assumed to be a bug...

Playing as a Level 1 Human Thief, I picked up and started using LEMMISI. It does not seem to cost mana! I stood there and cast it 5 or so times, still at full mana. Moved a couple squares, cast it again, still no mana cost.

I took a screenshot of it, if you think this would somehow help let me know and I'll email it to you or something.

Keep up the good work!

Stop. Think.

;)

Chippit
08-02-2010, 11:19 PM
I totally heard that Chippit doesn't like elves, yo.

Did you, now? Whatever would have given you that idea? :P

Delvin
09-02-2010, 12:47 AM
Finished Ranked mode with 3 different classes now. It's very easy with the correct glyphs actually ;)

As demonstrated by this (yes, that is a level 10 character - yay for exp bonuses):

I'm probably missing some point awards that could boost the score even further (for one, monster summoning gives ~1k points and wasn't found in this game)

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3224/win02.jpg

In particular rounds where I get poison very early tend to go extremely well. Couple with fireball and blood-to-mana, and you can focus both HP and MP regen against powerful enemies. Low hp high levels ones work particularly well.

Another powerful strategy is to make a Rogue and find CYDSTEPP (survive fatal blows) early. It's ridiculous. You can precast protection. Regain 10 mana. Engage an enemy. With double protection, first strike and huge attack power you can often kill monsters way above your level.


EDIT: By the way, I crashed the game once (divide-by-zero error) by using an altar that reduces your maxHP by 10 when I only had 10HP on a L1 character.

BlackShipsFillt
09-02-2010, 12:55 AM
Silly me. I only no realised why ranked can only be played after everything is complete - because each game unlocks different monsters and stuff.

Although is that true? If I go back and play wizard again will the new creatures appear, or will I just be playing the original game again? (I'll test this out once I'm back on Windows)

Nandrew
09-02-2010, 02:19 AM
That's an impressive score, Delvin! You've just toppled the previous global leader! :P


Silly me. I only no realised why ranked can only be played after everything is complete - because each game unlocks different monsters and stuff.

Although is that true? If I go back and play wizard again will the new creatures appear, or will I just be playing the original game again? (I'll test this out once I'm back on Windows)

Yep, half the appeal is that you can experience a broader dungeon with old characters once you've progressed through the unlocks. :) Playing a fully unlocked dungeon with a Fighter, for example, can be a vastly different (and far more challenging) experience when compared to your first playthrough!

Graal
09-02-2010, 06:07 PM
I just beat my first dungeon as a halfling thief. Got Aeq as a boss. Got to level 8. Decided to stop wasting potions and just fought him. Had 4 health pots over in the end as I just kept using the fireball spell on him.

Victory dance!

Almost
10-02-2010, 04:52 AM
I really like this game. I've won as every unit other than the Bloodmage so far. (he doesn't seem very effective..)

And yeah, I too got an error when I gave myself 0 max health :D
It's just something you do out of curiosity when you're level 1 and have nothing to lose. It's really not a problem.

Please, make the numbers go and the boss disappear immediately when he is defeated, and THEN bring up the message of what I've unlocked. As is, I keep thinking that my first strike must have failed due to some fault of mine and I'm dead since a dialog just popped up and I still see him.

Speusippus
10-02-2010, 05:17 AM
I really like this game. I've won as every unit other than the Bloodmage so far. (he doesn't seem very effective..)


Here's one strategy, at least for the boss battle. Be a gnome, keep only the fireball spell and maybe the first strike spell, convert the rest, and in general just get lots and lots of mana potions. For this class, mana potions are 100% effective so it's good to focus on them. Meanwhile, never step on a blood pool. You won't need them until the boss battle. (I said above to only keep fireball, but actually, keep a wall-destroy or monster-teleport rune as well for most of the game, to make sure you can get around blood pools without having to step on them.)

Now when it's time for the boss battle, just keep hitting him with fireballs, chugging potions, and recovering HP with potions and bloodpools. And you're golden.

Note that if you are like me and not concerned about actually surviving the boss battle, then you can convert the first-strike rune as well as it makes no difference to the outcome when you're not concerned to survive the encounter.

There are surely other ways to do it, but that's how I did it.

neongrey
10-02-2010, 05:53 AM
Note that if you are like me and not concerned about actually surviving the boss battle, then you can convert the first-strike rune as well as it makes no difference to the outcome when you're not concerned to survive the encounter.

There are surely other ways to do it, but that's how I did it.

Well, if you're just spam-fireballing, you'll never be in combat with him, so he'll never hit you, so you can ditch the first-strike easily enough. The thing I tend to do with characters reliant on fireballs is just do the math-- you know how many casts you'll get once you've got all your potions, and how much damage they do, so you can figure out pretty easily exactly how many HP worth of boss you can take down.

BlackShipsFillt
10-02-2010, 12:00 PM
I might just be misunderstanding, but the Medusa deathgaze doesn't seem entirely predictable. Does it kill you if you have lower than 50% health after the attack or does it kill you if you have lower than 50% before?

Or is it something else and I am misreading?

Anyway, it seems to sometimes kill me when I don't expect it.

Azimuth
10-02-2010, 12:14 PM
I think it happens if, when the attack hits, you're already at < 50% health.

Chippit
10-02-2010, 12:16 PM
You need to remember that Medusa has first strike, so if you go into combat with one on less than half health, you will die unless you have killing blow protection. Your own first strike won't save you.

Speusippus
10-02-2010, 01:09 PM
Well, if you're just spam-fireballing, you'll never be in combat with him, so he'll never hit you, so you can ditch the first-strike easily enough.

Of course! [slaps forehead].

I just wasn't thinking when I said that.


The thing I tend to do with characters reliant on fireballs is just do the math-- you know how many casts you'll get once you've got all your potions, and how much damage they do, so you can figure out pretty easily exactly how many HP worth of boss you can take down.

Yes, I'm pretty much doing math the entire time I play, whatever character I'm playing as. It's a math game.

BlackShipsFillt
10-02-2010, 02:49 PM
Killed the 936 HP MeatMan! (Gnome Sorcerer)

I'm pretty certain died on a Medusa boss when I had gone into combat with over 50% health, unless I had been confused at the time.

dislekcia
10-02-2010, 02:59 PM
Killed the 936 HP MeatMan! (Gnome Sorcerer)

I'm pretty certain died on a Medusa boss when I had gone into combat with over 50% health, unless I had been confused at the time.

The Medusa boss has 100% death gaze, meaning she kills you if you don't have 100% health.

BlackShipsFillt
10-02-2010, 03:23 PM
Yes, definitely. I went against a medusa boss with 94 out of 104 hitpoints. I killed it in combat and then it killed me (It does 75 Damage)...

[Edit] Doh! I didn't read the 100% part, I assumed it was the same.

Chippit
10-02-2010, 03:24 PM
The Medusa boss has 100% death gaze, meaning she kills you if you don't have 100% health.

Meaning you're screwed hard if you're a monk, basically.

dislekcia
10-02-2010, 03:42 PM
Meaning you're screwed hard if you're a monk, basically.

Nah, she only deals 45 damage if you're a monk. You can be dealing more than that + fireball damage. It's not too hard to kill her via attrition if you've got exploration left. It's less feasible at lower levels, but still doable.

neongrey
10-02-2010, 08:30 PM
Of course! [slaps forehead].

I just wasn't thinking when I said that.

Haha, it's cool. It can still be good to keep around, though, if you don't have an urgent need for the conversion bonus-- it's cheaper than fireball, and sometimes one hit worth of attack damage is all you need to finish an enemy that won't level you (so you need the mana), but would still kill you if you got hit.


Yes, I'm pretty much doing math the entire time I play, whatever character I'm playing as. It's a math game.

Yeah, but the math gets easiest if you're doing it with fireballs... no damage to yourself to take into account. :)

Almost
11-02-2010, 06:57 AM
Ahaha, 8 of the top 10 scores are elf wizards. It's a fun class.

My biggest complaint with the game right now is the money carries over system. In order to have a single good playthrough it is pretty much necessary to precede it with a couple "pick up all the coins you can and then retire" playthroughs. Having a constant initial gold for each round seems more fair to me.

Also: it would be nice if the game automatically ignored the boss that would be the hardest and the boss that would be the easiest to beat for the playing class. (so as a wizard you aren't fighting a 70%magic reduction boss which would be impossible, and you aren't fighting a high damage and little health class which would be too easy)

BlackShipsFillt
11-02-2010, 11:08 AM
I had a situation where I couldn't drink any mana potions with a BloodMage... it might be a purposeful limit.

Also every now and then I move to a square only to die, don't know, might be my mouse.

dislekcia
11-02-2010, 12:46 PM
Ahaha, 8 of the top 10 scores are elf wizards. It's a fun class.

My biggest complaint with the game right now is the money carries over system. In order to have a single good playthrough it is pretty much necessary to precede it with a couple "pick up all the coins you can and then retire" playthroughs. Having a constant initial gold for each round seems more fair to me.

Also: it would be nice if the game automatically ignored the boss that would be the hardest and the boss that would be the easiest to beat for the playing class. (so as a wizard you aren't fighting a 70%magic reduction boss which would be impossible, and you aren't fighting a high damage and little health class which would be too easy)

Wizards are a little broken at the moment: The extra 4 glyphs allow for an obscene amount of conversion bonuses. Add that to the way that glyphs are currently the major way for people to farm the pool of test achievements and you have a very high-scoring class. The only reason we're not seeing dwarf and human wizards all the way up there as well is the damage reduction.

I reckon the reason you find money so important is that certain high-impact items cost pretty much all your gold. When you're score-running, you want to have 99 going in so that you can make the most of items early. That's actually fine: Score-running isn't something that everyone is going to be doing (and we have some good ideas on how to make it fairer across classes), plus Nandrew's got a couple of gold-earning ideas that I think you'll like ;) We're also planning a couple of upgrades to the gold system that should make it a little easier for late-game players to afford things, right now gold is a way for someone that's struggling with a class to get a helping hand - and a way for players to still get something out of a "hopeless" dungeon.

At the moment "impossible" bosses are only a real issue if you're trying for a high score and thus don't want to use potions, or you don't find them until really late in the game. We've got some ideas that will help veterans identify bosses earlier. Given achievements for taking out an "impossible" boss, you'll soon find players not hoarding potions.


I had a situation where I couldn't drink any mana potions with a BloodMage... it might be a purposeful limit.

Also every now and then I move to a square only to die, don't know, might be my mouse.

You couldn't drink the mana potions because doing so would have killed you ;)

Could you provide an example of you suddenly dying? Can you see what your health is at when it happens?

Speusippus
11-02-2010, 03:46 PM
Just curious to know--do you guys have an idea as to whenabouts you'll be ready with a new version? I'm interested to see how things progress...

Nandrew
11-02-2010, 04:54 PM
That's a bit difficult to say. I'm working on the next version as I type this, but there's a *lot* of improvements that I want to / need to make before release. Some of them may even adjust a core game mechanic here and there -- very risky business with the potential for great reward, but either way it'll require a lot of testing and careful thinkery-stuff. :P

On top of that, I'm helping QCF on another paid-for game development project at the moment, meaning that work on this will slow down somewhat as I prioritise on the other project.

Offhand? I'm giving myself another two weeks to bang out version 0.5, and hopefully the amount of changes and additions should make the wait worthwhile. :)

edg3
11-02-2010, 06:08 PM
___________________________________________
ERROR in
action number 1
of Step Event
for object Hero:

Error in code at line 48:
if (hp/max_hp<0.2) global.accolade[A_TANK]=0;

at position 9: Division by 0.

Got the god thingy that takes 10 max health and gives +3 max mana, only had 10 health.

Azimuth
11-02-2010, 08:55 PM
Nandrew, have you considered allowing players to create custom characters? Might be kind of... awesome.

Also, why does my Bloodmage soak blood when his HP is maxed? Tsk.

hideinlight
11-02-2010, 10:50 PM
http://www.photostand.co.za/images/gg8iz0vdjr3ogw6962te.jpg

Simple and fun game this.

dislekcia
11-02-2010, 11:44 PM
Also, why does my Bloodmage soak blood when his HP is maxed? Tsk.

His thirst knows no bounds!

Azimuth
12-02-2010, 12:55 AM
I'm playing as a Rogue, and a couple of times now - despite having First Strike, and delivering a killing blow with it - I've been killed by a goat.

Speusippus
12-02-2010, 12:59 PM
Here's a minor suggestion.

I'm one of those players who isn't really into high scores, but rather, likes to beat the game as each character thereby finding out more and more about the game's mechanics and unlockables.

So playing through the non-ranked games was fun. But now that I've unlocked everything, I feel no incentive to play any longer.

It's not like you are obligated to provide every player with whatever incentive he wants, but I have noticed comments from the developer that he'd like to accomodate both high-scorey type players and other types of players as well.

Adding unlockables to ranked games would probably mess up the whole ranking system, I realize. So my suggestion is very minor--almost petty. It would be nice to have a visual representation of which classes I have beat the game as in ranked play. Right now you get a yellow border around the class name once you beat it in unranked play. Perhaps change it to a red border (or something) once you beat it in ranked play?

Yes it's petty because I might as well just keep a checklist of my own, right? But it's just nice to see things represented in the game.

Nandrew
12-02-2010, 03:55 PM
I'm playing as a Rogue, and a couple of times now - despite having First Strike, and delivering a killing blow with it - I've been killed by a goat.

I lol'd for, like, half a minute at that. Sounds kinda funny if not for the fact that it's indicating a rather horrendous bug. :P

Umm, crap, is there any more info you can give me concerning your situation? I'm racking my brains and not coming up with anything. I've also been unable to recreate your problem anywhere, and I don't think D or Aeq have either.

I'm kinda hoping that you've just made a mistake over and over again. :P


Here's a minor suggestion.

I'm one of those players who isn't really into high scores, but rather, likes to beat the game as each character thereby finding out more and more about the game's mechanics and unlockables.

So playing through the non-ranked games was fun. But now that I've unlocked everything, I feel no incentive to play any longer.

It's not like you are obligated to provide every player with whatever incentive he wants, but I have noticed comments from the developer that he'd like to accomodate both high-scorey type players and other types of players as well.

Adding unlockables to ranked games would probably mess up the whole ranking system, I realize. So my suggestion is very minor--almost petty. It would be nice to have a visual representation of which classes I have beat the game as in ranked play. Right now you get a yellow border around the class name once you beat it in unranked play. Perhaps change it to a red border (or something) once you beat it in ranked play?

Yes it's petty because I might as well just keep a checklist of my own, right? But it's just nice to see things represented in the game.

Your request is actually going to be honoured in v0.5 (though not in quite the way you expect -- I've made slightly different plans which will nonetheless increase the game's lifespan immensely for unlock-hunters). There's also plans to make a more detailed and robust high-score system: GMH (http://www.gmhighscores.com/) has been absolutely wonderful for my primitive needs so far (and I'd wholeheartedly recommend it for networking newbies using GM), but D and Aeq are gonna maybe sorta help me do something different which will be a gazillion times better and stuff at some vague point in the future. :)

Delvin
12-02-2010, 05:32 PM
Any opinions on the 19-million point score, btw?

After awards, exploration, level bonuses, etc. the only way to get a significant score boost I can think of is to do ridiculous amounts of damage. Additionally you need to refrain from actually killing monsters and rather let them regen for even more potential damage (basically means that you can translate all unused unexplored terrain into points at the end against anything that you don't 1-hit-kill)

The problem with this is that in order to get 19 million points, you need to do almost 10 million damage. Even if you find a way to do infinite damage without losing health via the HP-leech shop item or something, monsters will still be able to regenerate only a finite amount of hit points. As the game area is 400 tiles total, there would need to be 25000 hit points regained by monsters per explored tile to make up for the limited space. Obviously all the monsters combined don't have anywhere near that much health, plus you need to waste terrain just to reveal most of them.

If there is/would be a way for monsters to regen without exploring new tiles, I think it'd actually be possible to go to infinity like this.

Azimuth
12-02-2010, 05:51 PM
It's a hack. Some people just can't be arsed to do it the proper way. :/

Almost
13-02-2010, 12:17 AM
Ha! Now there is one more not-an-elf-wizard score in the top ten!

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3421/capturezf.png

I beat the boss (an 1150 hp meatman) in a battle of attrition (hence the huge ammount of damage dealt). I had almost as much health regen as him at level 9 and twice as much attack, so things worked out pretty well (Lemmisi is great). The CYDSTEPP glyph and my 20% dodge also kept me alive for a few more turns.

Rogue is a very nice class. (I've had no problems with the goats, for the record)

salejemaster
13-02-2010, 05:10 AM
hey guys, I'm having so much fun with this game I just had to register and make a few posts myself since I've been lurking on this thread for some time now. Also wanted to make a little suggestion, in the future versions I think it would be cool to have a different little avatar tile for each of the classes I think it would give them some soul if you know what I mean :)

neongrey
13-02-2010, 06:48 AM
Oh, any chance of implementing keyboard control at any point? I find it a little bit of a pain to use the mouse constantly to move.

Plus it causes even more chances of death due to fat-fingering.

Azimuth
13-02-2010, 11:52 AM
Also wanted to make a little suggestion, in the future versions I think it would be cool to have a different little avatar tile for each of the classes I think it would give them some soul if you know what I mean :)


Oh, any chance of implementing keyboard control at any point? I find it a little bit of a pain to use the mouse constantly to move.

Plus it causes even more chances of death due to fat-fingering.

I think both of these are scheduled in. Given current statistics from WHO, the risks of fat-fingering really can't be underestimated.

salejemaster
13-02-2010, 02:09 PM
I just hope that any future versions won't erase our saved games so far kuz then I would have to punch a baby, you don't want me doing that do you :)?

The Dash
13-02-2010, 07:14 PM
Oops, found another bug.

Exchanged killing blows with the boss. So i got the win message and unlocks, although after i clicked okay i got the message "You die...". I've noticed this before (Monster dies before you) but never has it been so handy

Maybe i shouldn't have mentioned this...would have made some runs do-able....

Azimuth
13-02-2010, 07:32 PM
Oh, that happened to me too. I'm not sure that's a bug - is it? In my mind's eye, I simply saw a great, bilateral cleaving of heads. The beast fell, and the hero - heu vae! - fell tragically with him.

;_;

dislekcia
13-02-2010, 08:12 PM
We had a whole story session about how, weeks after the hero ventured forth, villagers timidly pick their way to the dread dungeon. They discover no enemies, but no hero either. Eventually they abandon their curiosity, happy in the knowledge that the great beast which beset them is no more. The hero lives on in their fireside tales, perhaps a village square retains the hero's name, eventually hotdog stands and pigeons battle for hawking rights.

It was decided to leave mutual slayings in ;)

dislekcia
13-02-2010, 08:22 PM
I beat the boss (an 1150 hp meatman) in a battle of attrition (hence the huge ammount of damage dealt). I had almost as much health regen as him at level 9 and twice as much attack, so things worked out pretty well (Lemmisi is great). The CYDSTEPP glyph and my 20% dodge also kept me alive for a few more turns.

Rogue is a very nice class. (I've had no problems with the goats, for the record)

Whoa! Congrats :)

Been wondering how many people can take down the SMM in ranked. He's one of the hardest bosses. The fact that it gave you such a crazy damage score is awesome! (Rogue has to be my fav class so far, btw)

neongrey
13-02-2010, 11:40 PM
Whoa! Congrats :)

Been wondering how many people can take down the SMM in ranked. He's one of the hardest bosses. The fact that it gave you such a crazy damage score is awesome! (Rogue has to be my fav class so far, btw)

Yeah, I really like rogue the best myself, and even with that I can't imagine how I'd pull SMM down without slamming down an orb of zot. He's nasty.

Nandrew
14-02-2010, 11:53 PM
Super nasty. Killing him will probably earn its own achievement in future versions

Almost
15-02-2010, 01:26 AM
On the topic of hard bosses, I've never beat the goat. It has about 250 attack, 200 health and 60% magic resist. CYDSTEPP and a bunch of mana potions is the only way I can imagine it getting done.

...

Since you want the playthroughs of this game to be fairly quick, a preview of the expected outcome of a fight when hovering over enemies would be nice.

It would show the health remaining of both you and the enemy if you were to normal attack it until either it is dead or you cannot safely attack any more. It would count definite things such as damage reduction, protection from killing blow, lifesteal, magic shield, attack order, and "+30% attack when less than half health", but it would not count such things as "20% dodge chance", health potions, or magic abilities that have not yet been used.

Here's my mockup of what it would look like, if you don't know what I mean. After attacking twice(noting damage resistances), the berserker will have 5 health remaining, and the wraith will have 4 health remaining. At this point any more attacks will just cause the berserker to die.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8635/mockupu.jpg

In my opinion, it would mean battles that you cannot win or cannot lose are more obvious, as well as showing you how much health you will lose when attacking a certain enemy; allowing you to move on more quickly.

neongrey
15-02-2010, 09:26 AM
On the topic of hard bosses, I've never beat the goat. It has about 250 attack, 200 health and 60% magic resist. CYDSTEPP and a bunch of mana potions is the only way I can imagine it getting done.

A goat was actually how I beat rogue the first time... more or less on that principle, actually; I bought the item that replicates CYDSTEPP once and took advantage of the rogue's first strike ability and just two-shotted it.

Should be doable in ranked, too, though I haven't had that come up yet.

Shadow_Con
15-02-2010, 11:59 AM
Iv noticed that there have been about 4-5 new people who joined the forum just for this thread. Nice going nandrew

Nandrew
15-02-2010, 02:44 PM
Since you want the playthroughs of this game to be fairly quick, a preview of the expected outcome of a fight when hovering over enemies would be nice.

Definitely a good point, and one that's going to be addressed in the next version (and potentially improved upon from there). There's been quite a bit of talk about how much information needs to be provided about combat: for now, I've implemented a "next hit" prediction system which will report the results of the very next strike. It's been promising so far: players can more easily plough through "trivial" monsters while still needing to plan out more protracted encounters.

This will be refined as new releases are made. :)

salejemaster
15-02-2010, 03:59 PM
these new features are going to be great, guess I won't be needing my calculator and pen and paper to plan everything out :)

Conkerman
16-02-2010, 12:33 AM
hi. I signed up just to tell you that this game is amazing, and I love it!
can I make a suggestion? I haven't played through the whole game yet, and dunno if this feature is in it yet or not, but are there plans for unlockable themes? you know, like, different backgrounds for the dungeons n' stuff?
Anyway, just a thought. I look forward to future releases!

dislekcia
16-02-2010, 12:57 AM
hi. I signed up just to tell you that this game is amazing, and I love it!
can I make a suggestion? I haven't played through the whole game yet, and dunno if this feature is in it yet or not, but are there plans for unlockable themes? you know, like, different backgrounds for the dungeons n' stuff?
Anyway, just a thought. I look forward to future releases!

I believe the next version will load tilesets from files, meaning you can change the graphics yourself or unzip a pack by someone else :)

salejemaster
16-02-2010, 02:11 AM
the nex version is gonna be huge :D
work faster >.< :P
btw the guy who hacked the highscore, I think he's from Serbia since prdez means fart in Serbian :P

edg3
16-02-2010, 06:59 AM
Hmm, could you perhaps make it more clear that killing the boss by making it into a wall doesnt count as a boss kill please? I dont think that point was clear enough...

Squid
16-02-2010, 09:19 AM
Hmm, could you perhaps make it more clear that killing the boss by making it into a wall doesnt count as a boss kill please? I dont think that point was clear enough...

I think you should just remove that entirely. The wall glyph shouldn't work on bosses.

Nandrew
16-02-2010, 11:36 AM
I'll improve clarity on that point. It's definitely on the to-do list.

salejemaster
16-02-2010, 12:03 PM
I have a little question, If im playing with the bloodmage and have that glyph that teleports monsters of your level around you, the puddles of blood that they leave when they die, do they stack on one hex multiple times or if you kill say 5 monster on one hex it counts as just blood from one monster?

dislekcia
16-02-2010, 12:52 PM
I have a little question, If im playing with the bloodmage and have that glyph that teleports monsters of your level around you, the puddles of blood that they leave when they die, do they stack on one hex multiple times or if you kill say 5 monster on one hex it counts as just blood from one monster?

Blood doesn't stack, no. Using Wannafyt with the Bloodmage can be a little more complex :)

salejemaster
16-02-2010, 02:56 PM
yeah, my strategy was too use wannafyt to create a ring of delicious blood to slurp on later but I noticed that it didn't work that well :p

Nandrew
16-02-2010, 03:11 PM
Erm, actually, that's a good question. I checked up on the code that I threw in, and it suggests that maybe the blood *does* stack ... even if you only ever see one graphic. Heh. I'm sure I didn't intend that, but maybe I'll keep it in.

Interestingly enough, I've also discovered that you'll able to get blood pools from a rather odd situation ... infinite brownie points and an in-dev screenshot for v0.5 if anybody manages to figure out what I'm talking about.

Shadow_Con
16-02-2010, 04:57 PM
I havent unlocked the bloodmage yet so im not sure on his abilities yet but i just thought a good glitch would to end up drinking ur own blood puddle from death :-D and dieing with positive health.

Delvin
16-02-2010, 06:16 PM
Interestingly enough, I've also discovered that you'll able to get blood pools from a rather odd situation ... infinite brownie points and an in-dev screenshot for v0.5 if anybody manages to figure out what I'm talking about.

You must mean

Petrifying an enemy and then breaking the wall.

Yeah I thought that was funny too when I first saw it

Nandrew
16-02-2010, 07:20 PM
Heh, I'm wondering if I should maybe just leave that feature in. :P There's been quite a few "accidental" inclusions in this game which I reckon have turned out to be pretty fun.

And for those who are curious, this is what v0.05 looks like at the moment:

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss55/NandrewZA/screen2_v05.png

99% of what you see here is only really half-complete, but lo and behold! The graphics aren't of my own horrible workings anymore, thanks to Mr Richard Ramsbottom. And if you want to re-imagine DD in your own way, I've already inserted an option for importing tilesets which anyone can exploit and share when v0.05 comes out.

Miktar
16-02-2010, 08:11 PM
Now THAT looks sexy. I love the 'estimate', that's the one thing that's holding me back - I don't want to sit and figure out my chances.

dislekcia
16-02-2010, 08:49 PM
I think the biggest change is the completely revamped deity system... Nandrew's kept that really hush ;)

Miktar
16-02-2010, 09:03 PM
And that's fine, but what I'm interested in are the changes that make the game less of a chore to play.

salejemaster
16-02-2010, 09:03 PM
this looks EEEEEPIIIICCCC, feel the hype, woop~ woop~

Carl
16-02-2010, 09:24 PM
Needed to register to post, AWESOME game Nandrew! Got Sanvir to check it out as well. I'd have to agree with an earlier post (apologies for no quote) but I starting losing interest after completing all characters. The high score thing doesn't really grab me. I'll start a new profile when you bring out another version. Then I can start again. :)

coendou
16-02-2010, 09:47 PM
i really really really can't wait for the next version, to bad i was to late with ver4 to get a lot of bugs that aren't said yet, better luck next update ;) keep up the good work

salejemaster
17-02-2010, 12:12 AM
can't stop looking at the 0.05 screenshot, looks super cool

Speusippus
17-02-2010, 12:14 AM
Now THAT looks sexy. I love the 'estimate', that's the one thing that's holding me back - I don't want to sit and figure out my chances.

Hmm.....


Hmmmmmmmm.....

But.......

Sitting there figuring out (not my chances but) the exact outcome of each battle was part of the draw of the game for me!

(No surprise: The class with a 20% dodge chance was my least favorite!)

No one else, though?

salejemaster
17-02-2010, 12:38 AM
calculating was one of the appeal for me too, but I think it will turn out good :)

Nandrew
17-02-2010, 02:24 AM
Hi Carl, nice to see you in an online context. :P

---

Regarding the decision about combat outcomes ... yeah, it's a difficult one to make (how much of the challenge needs to be retained? Which challenges are meaningful and fun, and which ones are grinds?), but something that I agreed with when mulling it over with D and Aeq was the fact that a next-hit prediction system would be useful. It wouldn't undermine the entire combat system (since it only predicts the very next hit, and doesn't really spoil the fun for long-term planning), but at the same time it should help streamline decisions which most players may regard as "trivial": running about on level 1 or 2 and fighting those low-level monsters becomes a bit of a chore for veteran players (at least in my opinion) and sometimes it's nice to know at a glance that your next stroke will kill a monster without taking the time first to confirm what you already suspect.

In addition, getting a message such as "DEATH" or "POISON" from the predictive system doesn't necessarily mean that you should avoid the monster: half of the fun in Desktop Dungeons is figuring out a way to kill monsters which your character by all rights should not be able to topple anyway! ;)

Of course, this is all bluster and whatnot. I'd like to see how it turns out when put to the test. If a significant portion of the players are against it, it can be removed in the version after. :)

salejemaster
17-02-2010, 02:38 AM
Hi Carl, nice to see you in an online context. :P

---

Regarding the decision about combat outcomes ... yeah, it's a difficult one to make (how much of the challenge needs to be retained? Which challenges are meaningful and fun, and which ones are grinds?), but something that I agreed with when mulling it over with D and Aeq was the fact that a next-hit prediction system would be useful. It wouldn't undermine the entire combat system (since it only predicts the very next hit, and doesn't really spoil the fun for long-term planning), but at the same time it should help streamline decisions which most players may regard as "trivial": running about on level 1 or 2 and fighting those low-level monsters becomes a bit of a chore for veteran players (at least in my opinion) and sometimes it's nice to know at a glance that your next stroke will kill a monster without taking the time first to confirm what you already suspect.

In addition, getting a message such as "DEATH" or "POISON" from the predictive system doesn't necessarily mean that you should avoid the monster: half of the fun in Desktop Dungeons is figuring out a way to kill monsters which your character by all rights should not be able to topple anyway! ;)

Of course, this is all bluster and whatnot. I'd like to see how it turns out when put to the test. If a significant portion of the players are against it, it can be removed in the version after. :)

totally agree with all this, keep up the good work ;),
Also I have just noticed that I have started kind of trolling this thread, like replying to every post and for that I'm sorry :P
Further I was thinking when .5 comes about it wouldn't be a bad idea to upload the game to http://gamejolt.com/ its a good place to set up some free marketing for the game, the more player are exposed to it the better :)

Miktar
17-02-2010, 06:08 PM
Sitting there figuring out (not my chances but) the exact outcome of each battle was part of the draw of the game for me!

Understandable, but when going for a rapid, fun experience, and dare I say, casual, you want to keep as much of the game automated and transparent, letting the player make the important critical choices, not bog them down with D&D-level numerics.

marknau
17-02-2010, 07:37 PM
Nandrew,

Fantastic game, really elegant idea executed well. Great job!

Looks like you've also got a lot of strong ideas and energy for expanding it. Looking forward to future versions! Please allow me to put one suggestion in your head about the metagame.

To make it short, imagine keeping track of the player's maximum score with each race/class combination. Show his max scores for each combo on a big grid (currently that would be 5x12 = 60). Your campaign score is the sum of all those numbers. Then, unlock certain items based on your campaign score. So, as a dumb example, you get an extra store in the level once you've hit a 300,000 campaign score. You get +1 starting HP at 500,000. Etc.

This encourages the player to play every race-class combo, which seems cool. It also encourages people to go back and try to optimize their play for every combo. It will really expand the legs of the game without affecting the cool short-burst play length you've got going.

Feel free to use, ignore, modify at your discretion.

Thanks for the fun game!

Speusippus
18-02-2010, 05:58 AM
Hey, I'm officially the best Berserker!

Number 33 baby....

DukeOFprunes
18-02-2010, 10:01 AM
And now, you got Tigsource (http://tigsource.com/articles/2010/02/18/desktop-dungeon) DING!

Nandrew
18-02-2010, 12:15 PM
Oh, DukeOFprunes, you living legend you! You're going to punt this thing all the way to the moon, aren'tcha?

@marknau:

I've been mulling over a similar idea, perhaps for a later version of this game, where such a cumulative score would inspire gamers to try different race/class combos. Funnily enough, I didn't think about attaching actual awards to these milestones! It's a great idea, and one that I'll probably start work on once I've stabilised and greatly improved the score / achievements system (currently it's distinctly "meh" :P)

@salejemaster:

Gamejolt sounds like a cool idea. ;) I see that they recently had a "Rogue" contest as well, so I'll be looking at some o' them games. I don't know if DD has ever really been eligible for the title of "Roguelike", but I still like taking what I can from the genre.

salejemaster
18-02-2010, 01:19 PM
dare I say it but I think DD is a casual roguelike in the sense as Plants vs Zombies is a casual tower defense game

Miktar
18-02-2010, 04:25 PM
That's the idea, sure - but play some more roguelikes like anything from Chunsoft, and you'll see that calculating hit odds is pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum of the genre.

moldar
19-02-2010, 06:25 AM
First off - I registered just to comment on this game. Most excellent piece of work! Nice job!

As I was playing, it took me a while to realize that the gold carried over from game to game. At one point, I thought that the more classes I unlocked, the more gold I started with. At that point, I thought it was a brilliant idea!

Then, of course, I realized that wasn't the way it worked. However, perhaps it could be? Also, maybe you can add additional starting gold for achieving various accomplishments - but only count them on games where the boss is killed. Because, it is far too easy to start and retire and get plenty of achievements.

Maybe get "no mana potions used" across 10 different plays with a boss kill and start with +1 gold, etc.

Make sense?

Anyways - you have hooked me on this game and I will keep an eye on it!

Well done!

salejemaster
19-02-2010, 01:07 PM
thats a sounds like a good idea moldar because that would then eliminate the "a few games grind" that you have to do to get gold before attempting a serious run

moldar
19-02-2010, 08:23 PM
Thanks! Glad you like the idea!

I saw a discussion on another "forum" that mentioned that someone felt like they were "leveling up" the game with the unlocking of classes, glyphs, monsters, etc. This was after my "misunderstanding", of course.

I figure that I'd rather "grind" out a lot of achievements, semi-serious playthroughs, etc in my attempt to get a high score (Note - I only have one decent score so far - #18!) Instead of avoiding spending gold until I have enough to get everything on a level a few times in a row, hoping to get lucky with a boss that isn't impossible for my current character race/class combo.

Anyways - back to playing!

mckertis
19-02-2010, 11:21 PM
Okay, several questions here :
1. Why would i want to know the attack percentage ? Is that somehow useful ? I dont get it.
2. Why is it that sometimes i kill a monster in one hit and he doesnt bite back, and sometimes he does, even though its a monster with no "first strike" ?
3. Is Bloodmage starting magic actually supposed to be useful ?
4. How is it even remotely possible to kill bosses with Priest and Thief trees ? I happen to win a Priest game because i waited for Wraith boss to appear, but with Thief or Monk ? I have no idea how can anyone ever win with those.
5. A small oversight : resistance items appear before an actual danger, for example shops sell poison resist when snakes arent unlocked yet.

Almost
20-02-2010, 12:01 AM
Okay, several questions here :
1. Why would i want to know the attack percentage ? Is that somehow useful ? I dont get it.
Yeah, it's not really well explained in the game. The idea is that you have a base damage number that you do not see, and the percent number shows how it is affected by bonuses. The main point is that bonuses like +30% attack increase this percent number by 30, and thus are a percent of the unseen base attack number and not of the total attack. The base attack is 5*yourlevel.


2. Why is it that sometimes i kill a monster in one hit and he doesnt bite back, and sometimes he does, even though its a monster with no "first strike" ?.
Regarding monsters that do not have the first strike ability: If you attack somebody that is lower level than you you automatically get first strike against the monster. If you attack somebody of the same or a higher level than you they will attack at the same time as you, meaning you are hurt even if you are killing them.


3. Is Bloodmage starting magic actually supposed to be useful ?.
Heh, I feel the same. Just consider it a free glyph to convert to a skill bonus.


4. How is it even remotely possible to kill bosses with Priest and Thief trees ? I happen to win a Priest game because i waited for Wraith boss to appear, but with Thief or Monk ? I have no idea how can anyone ever win with those..
Thief potions heal both health and mana, so you can stockpile a lot of regeneration for a single battle.
In case you are unsure of how things work, every monster that has been hurt will heal his level in health points for each tile that you explore, and you will heal your level in health points. In the case of the monk, you heal twice your level in health points.
As a monk, you can often attack a boss a few times until you are at a very low health, explore a few tiles (healing you 18 each and him only 10 each) and then attack again. Since you have more health regen than him you can keep doing this and you should be able to eventually beat the boss. For this to work, it is ideal that you have a lot of attack so that each hit on him will hurt him as much as possible, thus I recommend being a human monk. Note that -50% attack on the monk is the percent modifier; each glyph you convert will increase this modifier by +10%, so it is possible to have your damage modifier become positive again and thus do full damage while still taking half damage. Also, LEMMISI allows you to reveal tiles that cannot otherwise be reached, allowing you to continue such an attack heal a bit attack pattern for even longer.

mckertis
20-02-2010, 01:23 AM
The idea is that you have a base damage number that you do not see, and the percent number shows how it is affected by bonuses. The main point is that bonuses like +30% attack increase this percent number by 30, and thus are a percent of the unseen base attack number and not of the total attack. The base attack is 5*yourlevel.
Yes, i get that. What i dont get is why would i need to know the percentage. Why is it shown on the HUD ? The attack is already a total number, i dont see what is there to be gained from knowing how many +% you have. Isnt it irrelevant ?


As a monk, you can often attack a boss a few times until you are at a very low health, explore a few tiles (healing you 18 each and him only 10 each) and then attack again.
Um, yeah...i'd like to see how its possible to gain level 9 and still have tiles to open. Maybe it could happen, but what are the chances of that ?

dislekcia
20-02-2010, 01:38 AM
Yes, i get that. What i dont get is why would i need to know the percentage. Why is it shown on the HUD ? The attack is already a total number, i dont see what is there to be gained from knowing how many +% you have. Isnt it irrelevant ?

We're spending a lot of time thinking and debating about the information shown to the player and the interface in general. Trust me, the interface you're seeing is going to be changing quite a bit :) Comments like this one help us refine the experience and make it easier for players to pick up, which is always a good thing, thanks.


Um, yeah...i'd like to see how its possible to gain level 9 and still have tiles to open. Maybe it could happen, but what are the chances of that ?

You'd be surprised. We've had some really high scores with monks, so the top players are getting lots of exploring done once they're high level. Keep playing, I'm sure you'll be able to tell us what they've been doing soon enough.

Nandrew
20-02-2010, 12:12 PM
@moldar: I have a similar-ish idea that's going to revolve around gold buffing of some kind. Should make it into the next version, so maybe you can comment again when it comes out :)

@mckertis: I think the others have addressed most of your points -- and on several counts, I can agree that DD *does* have elements which may seem strange or useless for new players, but which turn out to make a startling amount of sense once you get good at the game. :P Though I agree: the Bloodmage spell is currently not fantastically useful! That's being changed in the next version.

coendou
20-02-2010, 02:54 PM
another suggestion i'd like to make is the making of hotkeys for spells, if you're using a mousepad for wichever reason, fireballing twelve times in a row gets kind of annoying ^^

moldar
20-02-2010, 04:42 PM
@Nandrew - I am looking forward to it! If you tell me about when the next version is due, I can schedule some vacation days away from work, since I'll need time to play!

Speusippus
20-02-2010, 05:46 PM
Yes, i get that. What i dont get is why would i need to know the percentage. Why is it shown on the HUD ? The attack is already a total number, i dont see what is there to be gained from knowing how many +% you have. Isnt it irrelevant ?

If you have an item (or use a glyph) that augments damage by X%, you won't know what your actual damage will be unless you know what your base damage value is. And you don't know that (given the present UI) except by doing a calculation on your damage amount and your augment percentage.

So for example, if what I see next to "attack" is "12 (+50%)" and I am thinking about using BYCEPPS (+20% damage) then to figure out what my new damage is going to be, I need to figure out what my base damage is. And to figure that out, I have to ask "What is the X such that X + (50% of X) = 12?" X = 8 in this case. So my new damage is going to be 8 + (70% of 8), whatever that turns out to be.



Um, yeah...i'd like to see how its possible to gain level 9 and still have tiles to open. Maybe it could happen, but what are the chances of that ?

It's actually pretty typical. I generally beat the bad guy at level 8 or 9, and I generally have not explored the entire map by that time. (I often have explored the whole labyrinth, but haven't used LEMMISI to explore the whole map.)

mckertis
20-02-2010, 06:12 PM
And to figure that out, I have to ask "What is the X such that X + (50% of X) = 12?" X = 8 in this case.
Gosh, just make the game logic use matrices or logariphmic equations, that would be so much simpler ! :P


I am thinking about using BYCEPPS (+20% damage) then to figure out what my new damage is going to be
Except that when you actually use the magic - the total attack number simply tells you what your new attack is, you dont need to do it manually.

Okay, now i see how it is useful (though rather unwieldy for what's claimed to be a 10-minute game). I thought that all bonus damage was from the total number, because thats how it always works. I guess its a manual issue (or rather lack of manual). Please make an attempt to actually document your mechanics, okay ? Okay.


I often have explored the whole labyrinth, but haven't used LEMMISI to explore the whole map.
I see the trick...well...its kinda clever...but at the same time feels cheap.

Higushi
20-02-2010, 07:07 PM
Nandrew! Wow man, you've really hit gold with this game of yours! I'm absolutely loving it, and just can't... stop... playing... ok bye now! (I'll give more feedback once the urge to play it every waking second has worn off) :P

*Runs off to continue playing DD*

icecube
20-02-2010, 08:50 PM
Gosh, just make the game logic use matrices or logariphmic equations, that would be so much simpler ! :P

Logariphmic? <_<

Anyway, I'm having the hardest time with Berserker. I've beat it with every other character now, but I haven't even come close to killing a boss yet with Berserker :l. They either have too much HP (900+), do too much damage (75+, D:), or are resistant to physical (60% resistance).
Any tips?
EDIT: ^-^ finally got a good boss (magic attack). Unfortunately didn't play it correctly and I died when he had 10 HP left.
EDIT2: Yay, got Aequitas again. Easy kill.

coendou
21-02-2010, 01:09 AM
@speussipus: attack=5*level*(100%+extra percentage displayed right of attack) so instead of calculating backwards for bysseps, you could just do 0.2*5*level=level as 0.2*5 is 1, so you just add your current level to your attack basically

The Dash
21-02-2010, 10:01 AM
Woah!

Nandrew i found an epic one time bug. No error message, so i'm going to try be specific:

I was a Human Rogue.
New game, just started exploring when i found the alter that requires you to destroy a wall.
The Endiswall glyph was next to me when i started.
I go pick it up, arm it, and click on a wall.
Get the message ("xx lends you some of his strength etc blah blah")
Then i get the message "You die..."
and yes, i was actually dead

My end of level stats:
Damage Dealt: 44
Monsters killed: 100
Boss killed: 0
Exploration: 144
Monsters petrified: 0
Character level: 250

awards:
feeling kinda parched
lay off the spirits


I was at full health, and full mana.
I have only completed the first four characters


Hope that helps, i have no clue how to try replicate it




EDIT: If there is a monster under an black tile directly above you, if you hover your mouse over the tile you can see the bottom of the monsters level. Its not actually a problem, just now i know that there's a monster there. (This is caused by a monsters level being enlarged when the mouse is over it)

http://i49.tinypic.com/1zz6fwo.jpg


Also, is there any punishment for worshiping a god but not completing what the god wants? (IE destroy a wall, but you never do). How about a simple -1000 at the end of the level?

BlackShipsFillt
21-02-2010, 12:25 PM
I think I've been killed a couple time by clicking on a monster underneath the black.

However I couldn't replicate the problem, it only happens when I'm not expecting it. I don't have a faulty mouse or anything so I don't know.

Nandrew
21-02-2010, 05:17 PM
Gosh, just make the game logic use matrices or logariphmic equations, that would be so much simpler ! :P

Except that when you actually use the magic - the total attack number simply tells you what your new attack is, you dont need to do it manually.

Okay, now i see how it is useful (though rather unwieldy for what's claimed to be a 10-minute game). I thought that all bonus damage was from the total number, because thats how it always works. I guess its a manual issue (or rather lack of manual). Please make an attempt to actually document your mechanics, okay ? Okay.

There's going to be quite a few changes in v0.05 to make it *much* more accessible and "10-minute" oriented for the average user. This includes rearranging some information, adding extra info and throwing in minor combat prediction. I'm trying to balance the information economy to retain meaningful challenges (math-thinkery will still be required for protracted combat, boss battles and long-term decisions!) while removing grinds (for example, requiring too many mathematical steps to predict bonus damage).

If you're looking for a perfectly documented game, however, you'll be sorely disappointed. :P Some areas are deliberately left grey -- not least because this encourages the community to help one another and adds to an individual's sense of achievement when discovering some new and important fact. Nowhere will this philosophy be more apparent than in the revamped deity system of v0.05: gods have become far more complicated already and will, in fact, not wholly dictate their desires, rewards or punishments in advance. This means that players will have to use "common sense" approaches when figuring out a deity's needs and dislikes (based on the personality or theme that said god presents), while leaving room for risk-taking and experimentation. Building a comprehensive picture of a given god's constraints and rewards -- either through raw game experience or by trawling through community comments -- will become a meaningful puzzle in itself.


I see the trick...well...its kinda clever...but at the same time feels cheap.

Ah, but does it break or overly exploit the game? I've heard of a lot of people putting LEMMISI to good use, but there's quite a few spells out there which are considered far more powerful.

Nandrew
21-02-2010, 05:21 PM
@BlackShips: I'll look into that and try to replicate your problem. Sounds rather odd, but I think I have an idea of what may be causing it.


Woah!

Nandrew i found an epic one time bug. No error message, so i'm going to try be specific:

Ooh, that's quite a concern! Maybe I'll try getting a "cause of death" message into the next version to help troubleshoot. For now, I can say that your error may be gone by the next version, since I'm revamping the religious system anyway. :)

Azimuth
21-02-2010, 06:06 PM
I think I've been killed a couple time by clicking on a monster underneath the black.

However I couldn't replicate the problem, it only happens when I'm not expecting it. I don't have a faulty mouse or anything so I don't know.

I'm sure this has happened to me a few times too.

The Dash
22-02-2010, 08:02 PM
Can i please put in a request for an achievement for killing the boss at level 4 or lower? (Im sure im not the only one to do it)

Delvin
23-02-2010, 12:17 AM
Heh, I killed the boss once at level 2. Needless to say, you need quite favorable conditions for that ;)

Edit: How do you do it?

The main components for me were poison, fireball, 2x mana regeneration and some luck with a floor without monsters preventing free exploring.

Am now going to try a level one boss kill with a slightly different approach...

dislekcia
23-02-2010, 03:45 AM
Can i please put in a request for an achievement for killing the boss at level 4 or lower? (Im sure im not the only one to do it)

What? How'd you do that?

The Dash
23-02-2010, 07:05 AM
What? How'd you do that?

Elf assassin, got the Medusa as the boss (forget her real name)

Killed a level 6, which bumped me up to level 4 (if i remember correctly). Then i simply went for it :p

Its incredibly easy once you realize it. Feels almost cheap, but its nice exploring the dungeon afterwords without worrying about reserving mana potions, or converting which glyphs etc

One bug/gripe. Boss's dont seem to give any experience =/

Shadow_Con
23-02-2010, 12:10 PM
20000 points to delvin for killing a boss at lvl2. Lol

Delvin
23-02-2010, 04:07 PM
Bosses definitely give experience. Just beat medusa with a level 1 human warlord (which I believe is best for the job at L1, due to fireball's low mp/dmg at that point). Instant level 6. Goat would've been even easier and I didn't get as many attack boosts as I could have, so there's definitely some room for average luck :P

InsertName
23-02-2010, 08:40 PM
This game is addicting and reminds me slightly of Demon's Souls, I'm not sure why.

Ultixan
24-02-2010, 11:56 PM
Okay theres quite a few pages in this thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned before.
I found a minor bug with the one altar which lets you sacrifice 10 health for +4 max mana. Did it at level one which dropped max hp to 0 (yes a stupid thing to do but I was curious to see what would happen ;p ) and caused the game to throw this error:



ERROR in
action number 1
of Step Event
for object Hero:

Error in code at line 48:
if (hp/max_hp<0.2) global.accolade[A_TANK]=0;

at position 9: Division by 0.


Anyway, keep up the awesome work. I've managed to get a bunch of my friends addicted to this game. ;p

Miktar
25-02-2010, 06:20 AM
I present, something I rarely do: fanart!

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_4txIm0ftQkQ/S4X5MhIZY3I/AAAAAAAAJs8/bVjGqkTgDBU/s800/Desktop%20Dungeons.jpg

I GOT YOU NOW, GOAT!

Conkerman
25-02-2010, 07:17 AM
^
I gotta say, very cool picture dude =D

Higushi
25-02-2010, 08:03 AM
lol, you've captured the essence of the dungeon perfectly there, Miktar. :P Awesome pic

iceblademush
25-02-2010, 09:27 AM
I present, something I rarely do: fanart!

I GOT YOU NOW, GOAT!


Haha, thats got the new artwork in it, i recognize the dungeon tiles and the new goat sprite! :)

I like the style though and idea, would make a cool splash screen...

DukeOFprunes
25-02-2010, 10:35 AM
I present, something I rarely do: fanart!

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_4txIm0ftQkQ/S4X5MhIZY3I/AAAAAAAAJs8/bVjGqkTgDBU/s800/Desktop%20Dungeons.jpg

I GOT YOU NOW, GOAT!


Guddamn that's excellent, love the perspective.

coendou
25-02-2010, 11:51 AM
really nice picture that. love it. makes me think, maybe, if this game gets real far, it can be made 3D :p would be funny

dislekcia
25-02-2010, 12:55 PM
Whoa! Thanks Mik :)

I love that the enemies have the level numbers on them, that's so kickass! (Also, the goat is like my favorite monster ever)

Nandrew
25-02-2010, 12:58 PM
D and I just laughed our asses off at this one. That goat's expression is just priceless!

Nandrew
25-02-2010, 12:59 PM
Ultixan: Yeah, nabbed that one. :P It's a common error in the current version, but take comfort in the fact that it would probably have killed you regardless. :P