View Full Version : Wits to host Game design degree
01DT!m3r
23-03-2011, 08:13 AM
http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/technology/gaming/a-degree-in-game-design-1.1040430
It's quite old already but I only found it now:P
Thoughts?
Personally ,I think the comment at the bottom is quite accurate in my opinion as well. (although that could be biased because, I myself am doing a Bsc. CompSci and think it would be a better suited merge than Elec Eng).
dislekcia
23-03-2011, 11:44 AM
Personally I found this article to be nothing more than fluff. I mean, it took SAGD seriously and didn't contact QCF, even though we're mentioned in the article. That's daft journalism :(
Wits has a history of collaboration between its digital arts and engineering departments, I believe that when she lectured there, Pippa Tshabalala (yes, from the Verge) was driving a couple of game-like projects where engineers were doing the coding and the digital arts students were producing graphics. It had a couple of problems, but I'm not surprised that it's grown into something bigger.
While I agree that many electrical engineers aren't necessarily game developers or even too knowledgeable about games, I'd argue that few digital arts lecturers are either (with the exception of people who expressly study games, like Pippa) - it's a chicken and egg situation: We can't have people teaching game development and design because those that know what that means are too busy doing it, so how do we get more people with the skills to do so?
The bottom line is that there's interest. Sure, there are going to be mistakes, but it all comes down to the students eventually. The students that are driven and find places like Game.Dev or international game development communities like TIGsource and the like and really engage in them, build portfolios etc, they'll do well. Chances are they'll do well whatever their degree. That's how university goes.
There's a huge difference between the average student and someone that's really trying to make their dream career happen. Just picking a cool-sounding degree and expecting that to teach you everything you need to know isn't going to get you anywhere, even if you have the best, most relevant, lecturers in the world.
xyber
23-03-2011, 11:59 AM
I mean, it took SAGD seriously ...
What are you implying with this?
BlackShipsFillt
23-03-2011, 12:57 PM
There's a huge difference between the average student and someone that's really trying to make their dream career happen. Just picking a cool-sounding degree and expecting that to teach you everything you need to know isn't going to get you anywhere, even if you have the best, most relevant, lecturers in the world.
I'm not sure, but I imagine most of the people choosing the games path are going to be very into games (unless they're doing it for extra credit or or some other perverted interest)...
I know, with the animation industry, colleges promise job placement and such, but that can't be the case with computer games courses. So it follows that any of the students that are specializing in game design will be determined enough to weather unemployment to make games. From what I have heard, the game design course at UCT is one of the tougher and least glamourous courses a average student could choose.
Although, if it is anything like UCT, there will probably be a bunch, maybe even a majority, of them studying it that have no intention of ever doing it (which I find truly bizarre).
[edit] Although, now properly reading that article, I realise it is a much more game theory orientated course than the UCT one... which is good news, but it will also attract a lot of aspiring untalented gits. (though maybe a few awesome ones too. Personally I would have loved to have studied at a course like this instead of the one I actually did study at)
Necrolis
23-03-2011, 02:06 PM
guess the rumors where true (http://www.nag.co.za/forums/showthread.php?14272-Wits-Game-Dev-Degree) :P
I'd be interested to see what modules they would put into that degree, might be interesting to do some of them 'for non-degree purposes'.
Personally ,I think the comment at the bottom is quite accurate in my opinion as well. (although that could be biased because, I myself am doing a Bsc. CompSci and think it would be a better suited merge than Elec Eng).I totally agree!, though tbh, the EE dept. at WITS seems WAY better than what I've heard about/experienced at UJ's EE dept., so might just be a good thing
dislekcia
23-03-2011, 03:07 PM
What are you implying with this?
Uh, I'm "implying" that I don't take SAGD seriously and that I think that people who do haven't done very good research?
I'm not sure, but I imagine most of the people choosing the games path are going to be very into games (unless they're doing it for extra credit or or some other perverted interest)...
I know, with the animation industry, colleges promise job placement and such, but that can't be the case with computer games courses. So it follows that any of the students that are specializing in game design will be determined enough to weather unemployment to make games. From what I have heard, the game design course at UCT is one of the tougher and least glamourous courses a average student could choose.
Although, if it is anything like UCT, there will probably be a bunch, maybe even a majority, of them studying it that have no intention of ever doing it (which I find truly bizarre).
[edit] Although, now properly reading that article, I realise it is a much more game theory orientated course than the UCT one... which is good news, but it will also attract a lot of aspiring untalented gits. (though maybe a few awesome ones too. Personally I would have loved to have studied at a course like this instead of the one I actually did study at)
I think you only realise what you wanted to study well after you're actually already doing it. It's only then that you have enough context to properly appreciate the whys and hows of the material you're studying: You can find applications and uses for the knowledge you're gaining, so it's that much better.
I don't know why people do courses when they're not interested in them. I mean, I can speculate that there are all sorts of motivations from the mistaken belief that they "need a degree, so they might as well get this one" to parental pressure and the like. Generally the people that know what they want to do are already doing it, that's pretty damn rare though.
I didn't get a hugely favorable impression from the article tbh, it seemed like they were talking about game narrative being a driving force and that makes me worry that academic distinctions between ludology and narratology will rear their ugly heads again... At the same time, I think that it's a good place to start. I've sort of gotten over my annoyance that a couple years worth of students will be messed up by the universities as they meander back and forth, trying to sculpt a good degree.
After all, it's the mistakes that these degrees make that makes them better, right? Plus we have to get involved as the fledgling local industry and go "Well, this is how **** works for us, use that as you see fit" as much as possible. So are the JHB peeps going to be talking to Wits like Tasty Poison and QCF talk to UCT? That'd be awesome :)
xyber
23-03-2011, 03:21 PM
Uh, I'm "implying" that I don't take SAGD seriously and that I think that people who do haven't done very good research?
ah, ok.. so you are dissing me who are one of the admins there and one of the people who replied to the author's inquiry.
Anyway, as I see it, the author of the article contacted one of the big local companies (Luma Arcade) and contacted a community site (SAGD) which makes efforts to provide news and information on the local industry. Maybe if Game.Dev was not just some forum hanging onto NAG's forums she might have contacted whoever runs whatever Geme.Dev site.
dislekcia
23-03-2011, 05:09 PM
ah, ok.. so you are dissing me who are one of the admins there and one of the people who replied to the author's inquiry.
Anyway, as I see it, the author of the article contacted one of the big local companies (Luma Arcade) and contacted a community site (SAGD) which makes efforts to provide news and information on the local industry. Maybe if Game.Dev was not just some forum hanging onto NAG's forums she might have contacted whoever runs whatever Geme.Dev site.
Calm down mebbe? I didn't "dis" anyone. I just don't take SAGD seriously. You guys don't want me to take SAGD seriously and actually start getting involved... If you did, you wouldn't ban me every time I did. You probably would also benefit from not taking things so super serials.
Lazy research is lazy research - Luke (who replied for Luma) mentioned QCF and Tasty Poison as people she should talk to, if the reporter doesn't follow those up, that's laziness.
xyber
23-03-2011, 05:39 PM
I am not aware of any member ever being banned. They might get warnings for creating flame-wars or posts would be moderated to remove bad language or personal attacks against other members. The forums has gone through at least 4 or 5 changes over the past 10 years so maybe you should just sigh up again as logins can get lost when data is migrated between different technologies.
Anyway, PM me if you seriously want to use the forums and I'll see if we can find out why you can not login. I just always thought you where not interested in participating on SAGD. Did not know you are having trouble login in.
On the article, yeah, guess the author could have contacted a few more of the local developers but maybe she filled the quota of words for the article since Luke is quoted a lot and most of the article is about wits and not really about local devs.
http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/technology/gaming/a-degree-in-game-design-1.1040430
It's quite old already but I only found it now:P
Thoughts?
Personally ,I think the comment at the bottom is quite accurate in my opinion as well. (although that could be biased because, I myself am doing a Bsc. CompSci and think it would be a better suited merge than Elec Eng).
It should totally be a BEng degree and not a BSc, if it was a BSc then people wouldnt do CompSci or IT to learn programming, I see it was being more a design course than a "write a game" course.
Also, since I heard about this last year (that it was already in the works properly and not just a rumour) Ive been toying with the idea of taking it as my 3rd subject next year and perhaps taking it through to Honours after my CompSci
BlackShipsFillt
23-03-2011, 09:18 PM
I think you only realise what you wanted to study well after you're actually already doing it.
Really? I wanted to study game design/level design when I left high school and I could not (I wasn't interested in studying pure computer science which was all there was at the time). Maybe I'm a bit more focussed than most, or something.
I didn't get a hugely favorable impression from the article tbh, it seemed like they were talking about game narrative being a driving force and that makes me worry that academic distinctions between ludology and narratology will rear their ugly heads again...
Yeah, that puzzled me a bit too... Although it could just be something the journalist was stressing, narrative presumably being the part of game design the journalist was most interested in. There is a chance that a lot of other information was omitted. (I hopes)
The comment at the end of the article was really defeatist. I mean it seems to encourages future game developers to hedge their bets so that they have the option to become stuck in programming jobs they hate. (or am I reading it wrong?) Or maybe that comment is purely telling people not to get involved in games at all... which is even sadder.
But that comment at the end seemed to believe that it was a programming course (which I'm pretty certain it is not)... so maybe it's best ignoring it.
dislekcia
24-03-2011, 12:17 AM
Really? I wanted to study game design/level design when I left high school and I could not (I wasn't interested in studying pure computer science which was all there was at the time). Maybe I'm a bit more focussed than most, or something.
We're in the same boat there: Wanted to do this ever since school. Didn't know how. Just kept trying and lucked out eventually ;) My point though is that often studying at university happens the wrong way round. Students are exposed to a set of skills they lack the context to find useful yet, then they're sent out into the world to find that context. That's why we have that daft "3 years experience" issue for most IT positions. Yeah, some people get lucky and do it the other way, but most don't. My own attitude to my degree changed 2 years into it, because I suddenly knew why I was bothering.
Yeah, that puzzled me a bit too... Although it could just be something the journalist was stressing, narrative presumably being the part of game design the journalist was most interested in. There is a chance that a lot of other information was omitted. (I hopes)
The comment at the end of the article was really defeatist. I mean it seems to encourages future game developers to hedge their bets so that they have the option to become stuck in programming jobs they hate. (or am I reading it wrong?) Or maybe that comment is purely telling people not to get involved in games at all... which is even sadder.
But that comment at the end seemed to believe that it was a programming course (which I'm pretty certain it is not)... so maybe it's best ignoring it.
I got the feeling it was the WITS professor who was super-keen on narrative, although I could easily be wrong there. I agree, it was a strange thing to focus on, but maybe that's just from our perspective as game designers? I mean, we know that story does matter, but it's not the roiling core of what makes a game actually behave like one. Others aren't going to share that perspective.
I totally agree with the fatalistic overtones though. In fact, I get that feeling every time someone writes an incredulous article, all surprised that "games can be a career now". That really gets to me.
BlackShipsFillt
24-03-2011, 09:39 AM
Students are exposed to a set of skills they lack the context to find useful yet, then they're sent out into the world to find that context.
Doesn't Luma do a bit of a mentorship program sometimes? Heard something like that (that would be super-generous of them).
Because actually doing a bit of work (even at a super right-out-of-highschool level) and then studying would be perfect. But I don't know if Luma (or anyone else) would actually benefit from taking such a person on.
Of course it is a bit of a chicken before the egg scenario, without the right skills most would-be-developers won't be able to jump in and get experience, and without that experience they are in a poor position to judge which skills they need.
My opinion suddenly is that this is career guidance counselors' faults. They need to be getting educated about opportunities in game development, and the skills and such required to enter into the field.
herman.tulleken
24-03-2011, 02:01 PM
Career counselors are often very bad at what they are supposed to do. When I was in standard 7 or so, my career counselor made me feel stupid for wanting to become a scientist of some sort (I was under the spell of Chrighton novels at the time), like it wasn't a real job. And I did not know what I want to really do until I did it (at Luma), and then did something else (at InnovationLab), and then did it again (at I-Imagine); many others must be in the same boat....
As for degrees, I don't think anyone should bargain on career preparation from a university. I think universities are good for learning cold, isolated, hard-core skills - useful, but you learn your job... on your job (perhaps it is different in other fields, like accounting, but even there I wonder) - basically what you are saying Dislekcia, finding the context.
(He he, I also find the B.Sc vs B.Eng amusing. I studied engineering, so my first response to that comment was: what a fool. Guess I am biased too...)
Etiko
24-03-2011, 09:21 PM
I would have loved to have followed my gamedev dream when I left varsity, but I fear this is what most SA gamedevs have to look forward to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGJYPw-3ZA8
xyber
25-03-2011, 10:17 AM
I would have loved to have followed my gamedev dream when I left varsity, but I fear this is what most SA gamedevs have to look forward to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGJYPw-3ZA8
omg..lol @ video ;)
BlackShipsFillt
25-03-2011, 10:31 AM
I would have loved to have followed my gamedev dream when I left varsity, but I fear this is what most SA gamedevs have to look forward to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGJYPw-3ZA8
So been there. I'm still looking forward to Indie Dreamz! :)
dislekcia
25-03-2011, 10:50 AM
The irony being that I saw that Mega64 video at the IGF awards, so it was more like indie dreaming paid off ;)
Plus, it's the working for a major studio that caused the crash: Daydreaming when you're NOT commuting (ie: Working from home) is a lot less risky.
Etiko
25-03-2011, 10:51 AM
The irony being that I saw that Mega64 video at the IGF awards, so it was more like indie dreaming paid off ;)
Plus, it's the working for a major studio that caused the crash: Daydreaming when you're NOT commuting (ie: Working from home) is a lot less risky.
Yeah, but working for a corporate, at least he had a car to crash in :D
dislekcia
25-03-2011, 12:56 PM
Yeah, but working for a corporate, at least he had a car to crash in :D
So the important thing is having a car then?
BlackShipsFillt
25-03-2011, 02:29 PM
So the important thing is having a car then?
And if you finally get a car, make sure you stop dreaming :D
Etiko
25-03-2011, 04:15 PM
So the important thing is having a car then?
It all comes down to what you want most, I guess. And for many things, yes, a car is very important.
BlackShipsFillt
25-03-2011, 06:55 PM
It all comes down to what you want most, I guess. And for many things, yes, a car is very important.
That reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=617lGZjYyNo
dislekcia
25-03-2011, 07:04 PM
And if you finally get a car, make sure you stop dreaming :D
I stopped dreaming as soon as I got my car. That ****'s dangerous yo.
It all comes down to what you want most, I guess. And for many things, yes, a car is very important.
Do you have one? ;)
To be honest, I'm trolling you a little here. I'm constantly amazed at how people are so willing to stand up and say that corporate jobs are wonderful and great and blah before they've actually had one. Then when they do get one, they stop saying they're great and start talking about how they're "better than the alternative" - at least the job pays the bills, the job has medical aid, etc. Now, I'm not saying those things aren't important - I just happen to wonder why on earth anyone would willingly enter into an agreement to trade their time for money, when they could be trading their time for ownership of value that earns them money later. Sure, it's not always guaranteed to be value that other people think is worth it (hence being risky) but I'd rather risk constantly and learn how to make better and better value rather than only learn how to make my time more and more expensive.
The time deal is linear. Value/revenue is exponential with lots of possible false starts. Personally, I think taking the linear path is short sighted and leads to tons of unhappiness through disempowerment. Granted, people aiming for game industry jobs may want the linear path, but I've never advocated for that: I'm the dude telling everyone to be indie and start their own things, together ;)
BlackShipsFillt
25-03-2011, 08:03 PM
My guess (from what I've heard speaking to programmers) is that some programmers just love programming. Doesn't matter too much to them what the problem is so long as they are solving one. (I'm not accusing anyone here of that, but I have met some UCT game design students that have had that attitude)
I'm not like that, could never do that. And also I agree with Dis here that, certainly for myself, I'd rather risk a lot initially to have a chance to do something spectacular later on.
Of course that could just be because I'm generation X and we were all brought up to believe we could be rockstars :(
Chippit
25-03-2011, 09:57 PM
My guess (from what I've heard speaking to programmers) is that some programmers just love programming. Doesn't matter too much to them what the problem is so long as they are solving one. (I'm not accusing anyone here of that, but I have met some UCT game design students that have had that attitude)
I'm not like that, could never do that. And also I agree with Dis here that, certainly for myself, I'd rather risk a lot initially to have a chance to do something spectacular later on.
Of course that could just be because I'm generation X and we were all brought up to believe we could be rockstars :(
With that hundred-hand-punch (handred-punch?) avatar, you're already a rockstar.
Also, I'm not sure the problem solving attitude's necessarily a bad one. I think it just happens that game programming problems are inherently both interesting and satisfying. Well, except for UI stuff. Let's not go there.
BlackShipsFillt
25-03-2011, 11:21 PM
With that hundred-hand-punch (handred-punch?) avatar, you're already a rockstar.
Thanks, but that guy has been put on hold for far too long (which makes me sad). I've unwittingly found myself underneath Tasty Poison doing the linear-deal and worse. It's time I started (in the words of Dislekcia) creating value again.
dislekcia
26-03-2011, 12:25 AM
Thanks, but that guy has been put on hold for far too long (which makes me sad). I've unwittingly found myself underneath Tasty Poison doing the linear-deal and worse. It's time I started (in the words of Dislekcia) creating value again.
I'm going to be angry if you guys aren't getting at least some form of revenue-share... Are you?
Erm. Mebbe that's not something you can discuss here.
dammit
26-03-2011, 12:34 AM
I stopped dreaming as soon as I got my car. That ****'s dangerous yo.
Do you have one? ;)
To be honest, I'm trolling you a little here. I'm constantly amazed at how people are so willing to stand up and say that corporate jobs are wonderful and great and blah before they've actually had one. Then when they do get one, they stop saying they're great and start talking about how they're "better than the alternative" - at least the job pays the bills, the job has medical aid, etc. Now, I'm not saying those things aren't important - I just happen to wonder why on earth anyone would willingly enter into an agreement to trade their time for money, when they could be trading their time for ownership of value that earns them money later. Sure, it's not always guaranteed to be value that other people think is worth it (hence being risky) but I'd rather risk constantly and learn how to make better and better value rather than only learn how to make my time more and more expensive.
I'm totally going to butt in here and say it's part of the whole cognitive dissonance thing (among others). Basically, you tell yourself that you're in the best (or better) position because that less psychologically uncomfortable than admitting to yourself that where you are doesn't make you happy. This doesn't mean you're unhappy, btw. Just that some part of you may realise there are better opportunities or something, but to avoid the psychological discomfort/anxiety, you decide to believe that you have, or are currently in, the best situation.
Just my two cents. You may now continue with relevant discussions.
dislekcia
26-03-2011, 01:25 PM
I'm totally going to butt in here and say it's part of the whole cognitive dissonance thing (among others). Basically, you tell yourself that you're in the best (or better) position because that less psychologically uncomfortable than admitting to yourself that where you are doesn't make you happy. This doesn't mean you're unhappy, btw. Just that some part of you may realise there are better opportunities or something, but to avoid the psychological discomfort/anxiety, you decide to believe that you have, or are currently in, the best situation.
Just my two cents. You may now continue with relevant discussions.
I can't figure out if you're talking about people who're working for someone else, or people who are working for themselves. Sounds like that could be applied to pretty much every situation, either way ;)
dammit
26-03-2011, 01:33 PM
I can't figure out if you're talking about people who're working for someone else, or people who are working for themselves. Sounds like that could be applied to pretty much every situation, either way ;)
Oh, yeah, it can be applied to a ton of situations. You just happened to be wondering why people act the way they do when they have corporate jobs. I think I supplied an answer :)
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