View Full Version : "Indie" WTF does that mean?
Azimuth
09-01-2012, 04:17 PM
I'd caution against calling yourself an indie...
Are you truly independent of outside income? Are your games paying the bills? If not, then you're not an indie.
I think you'll find that indie devs are indie devs because they don't have financial backing from a publisher. Don't be elitist.
dislekcia
09-01-2012, 04:56 PM
I think you'll find that indie devs are indie devs because they don't have financial backing from a publisher. Don't be elitist.
Derp derp. My personal opinion on a term which loads of people in the industry can't agree on, obviously. Yes, it's a complex thing, so far the best definition I've found is that indie developers earn the majority of their income directly from individual buyers of whatever they made. This ends up meaning that a publisher who takes money from people for a game and pays a developer on the back end invalidates the indie label, but something like Steam doesn't.
So where would you draw the line between hobbyist and indie dev? And is it a valuable distinction?
Azimuth
09-01-2012, 05:33 PM
And is it a valuable distinction?
Nope. If you're making games on your own time and budget, you're an indie dev. You're still being elitist. Stop that.
dislekcia
09-01-2012, 05:45 PM
Nope. If you're making games on your own time and budget, you're an indie dev. You're still being elitist. Stop that.
Elitism unintended. Please point out where I seem to value one more than the other?
What's wrong with distinguishing between games that are being built by people who aren't making a living doing it and ones that are? I find it a useful distinction because the people making a living are exercising a large number of different skills that simply don't come into the picture when you're a hobbyist dev. I'm not saying that one is better than the other in any way, just that they're different beasts and I have different interactions with hobbyists and indies.
I'm advising Eyeball not to call himself an indie - wait for other people to call you one. This tends to hold true for all labels that people aspire to... I can, for instance, now finally call myself an elitist ;)
GeometriX
09-01-2012, 06:22 PM
Ah, here this is...
Oddly enough, I agree with Dis, but I can see why it comes across as elitist.
If I buy a game designed by an indie studio, I form a picture in my mind of a small, self-funded studio in a garage somewhere with people who work there full-time or at the very least depend on the income from this studio. It's their job. If their games don't sell, they don't eat. Automatically my expectations of the game are higher because I assume those developers will put in more effort to make their games good.
On the other hand, simply undefined game developers (let's say, "bedroom developers") are doing it for fun, they're learning, they're messing around with ideas because they can comfortably fail, move on and try something else. My expectations for a game developed by such a person (or group of people) is much lower. The game becomes more about sharing knowledge, criticisms and expertise than a straight-up buyer/seller arrangement.
Having said that, I'd never pay money for a game from the latter type of developer. Perhaps that's something that Eyeball should take into account. If I were developing games at the level of Eyeball's titles (which I don't think are good, for the record), I'd concentrate on getting feedback during development, sharing with communities, getting other people on board (artists in particular), and putting out a free product to get people's attention.
Back to the Minecraft reference, it started as a free concept, barely a game, that got people hooked. If Notch had tried to sell the original release of Minecraft, I doubt Mojang would have the success it has today. Pay attention to this, Eyeball.
dislekcia
09-01-2012, 06:45 PM
Traditionally, the problem with most definitions of "indie dev" that people have suggested is that they don't manage to cover all the cases that people clearly think of as indie development.
Someone like Cactus (http://cactusquid.com), for instance, who is about as indie as all **** according to pretty much everyone who has an opinion on these things, isn't covered by most strict definitions. Just like most non-strict definitions tend to mean that anyone that isn't currently employed by a publisher and who might be thinking of writing Call of War XIV at some point is magically an indie developer.
I think it's pretty hard to come up with an accurate definition, but the main thing seems to be the expectation that being called "indie" by media and marketing sets up in the minds of players. It's like pornography: You'll know an indie game when you see it. Or maybe you won't, if you look at something like Half Life... Damn.
dammit
10-01-2012, 05:09 PM
Azi, did you really just start a thread to pick a fight with Dis? Because that's what it looks like. I mean, really, who the **** cares?
GeometriX
10-01-2012, 05:18 PM
This thread was created by Dis as a breakaway from another thread.
Did you really post just to start an argument based on the idea that nobody gives a ****, despite this distinction being something that at least three people actually do care about?
I believe the phrase "mind your own business" is pertinent.
dammit
10-01-2012, 07:56 PM
Azi's post was first. My bad.
dislekcia
11-01-2012, 12:50 AM
Azi, did you really just start a thread to pick a fight with Dis? Because that's what it looks like. I mean, really, who the **** cares?
Nah, I forked this thread out once it seemed like this line of conversation was going to go off topic in Eyeball's advice request thread. In fairness, Azi did just post in order to pick a fight with me anyway - it being it's own thread is rather moot, she didn't bother adding any other content ;)
This thread was created by Dis as a breakaway from another thread.
Did you really post just to start an argument based on the idea that nobody gives a ****, despite this distinction being something that at least three people actually do care about?
I believe the phrase "mind your own business" is pertinent.
I dunno, I'd argue that you and I at least care about the definition, given your structured thoughts. The way this thread has died points to it mostly just being a "hey look, a fight!" thing as far as I can see.
BlackShipsFillt
11-01-2012, 01:58 AM
I think it's pretty hard to come up with an accurate definition...
It's quantified by their proclivity to leaving used pizza boxes around their workplace, qualified by the sparkle-intensity in their eyes, and their frequent use of sandal-type footware is a dead give-away. Also, Indies make self-promotional videos of themselves flumaging underwater. http://www.indiegamethemovie.com/
http://indiegames.com/fishy%20fez.png
On the other hand you can spot a AAA developer by their raw, tie-sore neck-meats, their plaintive "why-me?" expressions and their all-consuming preoccupation with someday becoming indie (which is something both them and actual indies cannot stop talking about).
Hobbyists are really much the same as indies... except by day they are something else, going to school or university, working behind a desk, delivering your mail, cooking your food, attending secret fight-clubs, performing ritualistic murder-sacrifices etc.
BlackShipsFillt
11-01-2012, 02:06 AM
Though seriously... I find the Hobbyist / Indie distinction quite useful.
Technically, being "independent" is kind of irrelevant if you aren't selling anyway (and so if you are doing it for fun then "indie" is kind of a misnomer)...
As a consumer I think it is fair to want to know who does it for a living and who is still learning or just having fun... (although by definition the hobbyist is not moneytising their work so the consumer perspective is kind of moot)
However... I don't like the term "hobbyist" at all... It kind of suggests that the person might have no ambition to become a professional or that being a professional game developer is something insurmountably hard that an average person could not ever teach themselves.
I guess "amateur" is an even worse term, because it suggests inferior quality... How about "indie-in-the-making" developers... much more positive though will never catch on...
Couldn't we make a distinction like: these are all indies and this subgroup are "professional indies and indie studios"? (and the "hobbyists" that way are just sort of "generic indies" and no one gets accused of "elitism")
dammit
14-01-2012, 07:59 PM
I believe the phrase "mind your own business" is pertinent.
This I don't understand. Left it for a couple days and it's still bugging me. Is this not a forum? Was this not a public thread? Am I not a member of this forum? Why is it then not my business?
dislekcia
15-01-2012, 09:21 PM
I guess "amateur" is an even worse term, because it suggests inferior quality... How about "indie-in-the-making" developers... much more positive though will never catch on...
What about under-development indies, or undies for short? ;)
Nemeses
16-01-2012, 07:14 AM
"Indie" means individual. Such as you are not coding with a team or company behind you.
BlackShipsFillt
16-01-2012, 08:10 AM
Doesn't "Indie" originally come from "Independent" and therefore includes everyone who is self-published?
This makes the term "Indie" kind of archaic, since the developer-publisher role has drastically changed over the last decade, and being self-published or not published by a major publisher is a very arbitrary distinction. (I mean... EA proudly publishes mobile physics-puzzlers now while many other publishers are just a guy with a name.)
That said I'm quite happy to call Indies who only make games on the side "Undies", and the games that they produce "Under-Ware".
Chippit
16-01-2012, 11:28 AM
That said I'm quite happy to call Indies who only make games on the side "Undies", and the games that they produce "Under-Ware".
Somebody give this man a medal.
BlackShipsFillt
16-01-2012, 08:29 PM
Somebody give this man a medal.
lol, technically it is Dislekcias's meme.
Though it could get confusing e.g. when people start holding "Underware Jams" and "Conferences for breaking into the industry aimed at undies".
dislekcia
17-01-2012, 12:38 PM
I would so go to Underware Jams, just to confuse people that followed me on twitter...
SkinkLizzard
17-01-2012, 04:07 PM
we should have more Underware prototype competitions.
dislekcia
17-01-2012, 10:31 PM
we should have more Underware prototype competitions.
I would totally organise those... If I weren't so busy being elitist.
BlackShipsFillt
18-01-2012, 05:54 PM
The thing about Underware competitions is that you have to think like a hobbyist (or at least a failed indie who has ended up stamping envelopes for a living). You have to make something that cannot sell. It has to be personal and it has to be something that you sincerely (misguidedly) believe will change the world and believe has never been done before (because of some specious reasoning).
I think... I don't actually know much about Underware. Maybe I'm a bit cynical.
Maybe it should be more like: Make the best, most unsellable, game ever!
Like: Conan Dash. Cooking management fun starring hunky, but violently unstable, Jason Momoa!
Or Astophysics Equations Scrabble! Endless fun for Astrophysicists everywhere!
Or maybe something fun, I don't know.
Plus! Stop being so elitist Dis!
helloserve
18-01-2012, 06:52 PM
I think you guys are over-thinking this in a big way.
dislekcia
18-01-2012, 10:41 PM
Also, I program in my undies... (Or sometimes other people's undies)
-A crocheting game for iPad, extra yarn colours sold as in-app purchases.
-An intricate competitive multiplayer lumber-sports game, become sponsored by Stihl to enter the big leagues - no bot play because bots are hard to program but I have a free server API!
-A match-3 about Jungian dream analysis, randomly generated from real LiveJournal posts, try to find your "patients" IRL.
-Knot tying game with real physics! Master the starboard winkle-hitch! Stop errant slippage! Stow that cargo!
EyeBall
19-01-2012, 12:35 AM
since moderators make no or very little money can we say they are not moderators?
Goraan
19-01-2012, 10:54 AM
Also, I program in my undies... (Or sometimes other people's undies)
-A crocheting game for iPad, extra yarn colours sold as in-app purchases.
-An intricate competitive multiplayer lumber-sports game, become sponsored by Stihl to enter the big leagues - no bot play because bots are hard to program but I have a free server API!
-A match-3 about Jungian dream analysis, randomly generated from real LiveJournal posts, try to find your "patients" IRL.
-Knot tying game with real physics! Master the starboard winkle-hitch! Stop errant slippage! Stow that cargo!
Dis you lose this comp. I would buy all of these games and all the yarns.
KalMaverick
19-01-2012, 06:37 PM
When I think indie games I think of developers that are independent from publishers.
I don't automatically think they must be paying the bills with their games and be independent of outside income. Does a indie developer become a hobbyist if he plans on selling a game and it flops badly and resorts to prostitution to pay his bills?
If the game does well and he doesn't need to resort to prostitution is he an indie developer again?
Whether the average guy making a game just for fun can be called an indie developer I also not sure.
In the end it's just a buzzword.
dislekcia
19-01-2012, 11:37 PM
When I think indie games I think of developers that are independent from publishers.
I don't automatically think they must be paying the bills with their games and be independent of outside income. Does a indie developer become a hobbyist if he plans on selling a game and it flops badly and resorts to prostitution to pay his bills?
If the game does well and he doesn't need to resort to prostitution is he an indie developer again?
Whether the average guy making a game just for fun can be called an indie developer I also not sure.
In the end it's just a buzzword.
Well, that's kinda the point: I'm trying to make it a useful term instead of a buzzword because the definition I gave for it is useful to me.
It's only really meaningless and consigned to being a buzzword if you want to leave it at that.
dislekcia
20-01-2012, 02:06 AM
Dis you lose this comp. I would buy all of these games and all the yarns.
Crap... Uh, what about:
-Play a high school teacher, guiding your class through lessons: Can you get 100% to pass? If you don't hit your mark quotas, you get fired! Think about that when setting your exams.
-Use your motion-sensitive devices to play a juggling game. Audio cues tell you how close your hands are to the balls/pins/chainsaws, try not to throw your phone!
-Dance Dance Meditation
BlackShipsFillt
20-01-2012, 02:37 AM
-A crocheting game for iPad, extra yarn colours sold as in-app purchases.
-An intricate competitive multiplayer lumber-sports game, become sponsored by Stihl to enter the big leagues - no bot play because bots are hard to program but I have a free server API!
-A match-3 about Jungian dream analysis, randomly generated from real LiveJournal posts, try to find your "patients" IRL.
-Knot tying game with real physics! Master the starboard winkle-hitch! Stop errant slippage! Stow that cargo!
-Play a high school teacher, guiding your class through lessons: Can you get 100% to pass? If you don't hit your mark quotas, you get fired! Think about that when setting your exams.
-Use your motion-sensitive devices to play a juggling game. Audio cues tell you how close your hands are to the balls/pins/chainsaws, try not to throw your phone!
-Dance Dance Meditation
LOL!! These are the best! I read the first one as "Crotcheting" :P
Have you thought about a career in Underware development?
BlackShipsFillt
20-01-2012, 02:50 AM
- Voice Activated Yodeling Championships? With tweet-a-yodel functionality and an 3D animated yack yodel assistant.
- Life Guard simulator. Enjoy relaxing in the sun, with 4 beaches to choose from and 3 varied quicktime emergencies.
- WindSurfing. Learn to windsurf just like the failed US Presidential Candidate John Kerry.
KalMaverick
20-01-2012, 09:37 AM
Well, that's kinda the point: I'm trying to make it a useful term instead of a buzzword because the definition I gave for it is useful to me.
It's only really meaningless and consigned to being a buzzword if you want to leave it at that.
But if the people who use indie use it differently than you would?
How does assigning your own personal definition make it useful?
BlackShipsFillt
20-01-2012, 02:09 PM
How does assigning your own personal definition make it useful?
Assuming his definition is useful, rather than just being a not-AAA catchall buzzword, then he is not just assigning a definition, he is trying to spread it and bring the more useful term into popular usage (as is evidenced by this thread).
Debating semantics is itself, not a useless pastime. Now when I talk to Dis, I'll be fully aware of his elitist views of "Indie" and understand his understanding and be able to talk his language in response :) Resulting in fewer debates over semantics in the future (and fewer tragic misunderstanding) and leaving me with more time to eat crisps.
dislekcia
20-01-2012, 03:33 PM
Plus I must admit that my definition comes from talking to people who use the term hobbyist and indie to describe two different groups of developers. It's not like I spend time trying to convince anyone of the difference at conferences overseas - I'm actually pretty surprised that people would argue the difference on this forum.
- Voice Activated Yodeling Championships? With tweet-a-yodel functionality and an 3D animated yack yodel assistant.
- Life Guard simulator. Enjoy relaxing in the sun, with 4 beaches to choose from and 3 varied quicktime emergencies.
- WindSurfing. Learn to windsurf just like the failed US Presidential Candidate John Kerry.
OMG. Brilliant. These will change very, very small parts of the world :) I think my fav has to be the yodeling.
KalMaverick
20-01-2012, 03:51 PM
Assuming his definition is useful, rather than just being a not-AAA catchall buzzword, then he is not just assigning a definition, he is trying to spread it and bring the more useful term into popular usage (as is evidenced by this thread).
Plus I must admit that my definition comes from talking to people who use the term hobbyist and indie to describe two different groups of developers. It's not like I spend time trying to convince anyone of the difference at conferences overseas - I'm actually pretty surprised that people would argue the difference on this forum.
Ok I get that, except as is shown in this thread not everyone believes dislekcia definition to be the most appropriate or am I wrong? Is there only a very few that disagree?
Anyway it doesn't really matter that much, okay maybe just a little, for now I'll skip over the term indie and just do what I've always done up until the time disleckia starts to go overseas to conferences and convinces everyone to use the same defintion, which admittedly would make things a whole lot simpler.
dislekcia
20-01-2012, 03:52 PM
Ok ok ok, new ideas:
-Tablet Kite Simulator. Fly a kite even if you don't have one. Checks location and weather for realism, uses microphone to gauge wind strength.
-DDR for iPad. Network 4 iPads together. Play barefoot. (This one courtesy of Nandrew)
-Barista Dash. Match pretentious hipster tastes to coffee orders, finally draw hearts in cappuccinos like you've always wanted.
dislekcia
20-01-2012, 03:58 PM
Ok I get that, except as is shown in this thread not everyone believes dislekcia definition to be the most appropriate or am I wrong? Is there only a very few that disagree?
Anyway it doesn't really matter that much, okay maybe just a little, for now I'll skip over the term indie and just do what I've always done up until the time disleckia starts to go overseas to conferences and convinces everyone to use the same defintion, which admittedly would make things a whole lot simpler.
Well that's the funny thing: How closely was agreement tied to actually making a living making indie games? That's basically what I'm saying already happens in locations with higher concentrations of indie devs anyway.
KalMaverick
20-01-2012, 04:06 PM
Well that's the funny thing: How closely was agreement tied to actually making a living making indie games? That's basically what I'm saying already happens in locations with higher concentrations of indie devs anyway.
So if someone had a full time job, say plumber, and at night he made games as another means of income albeit not anywhere a big as his main source of income.
Would he be considered an indie game developer?
dislekcia
25-01-2012, 04:58 PM
So if someone had a full time job, say plumber, and at night he made games as another means of income albeit not anywhere a big as his main source of income.
Would he be considered an indie game developer?
If he was actively involved in the business of selling the games he made, I'd probably say yes.
The thing is, I don't think that you really have anyone doing this that IS actually making side-income off the games they make, because you have to spend so much time on the non-development side of games if you're trying to make anything off it.
BlackShipsFillt
26-01-2012, 07:15 PM
- Realistic Golf. Strolling included. IAP golf carts and GTA style golf gang territories.
- Legislation Racket. Pass legislation by pinning to unfailable legislation. Like depleted-uranium mini gun funding appended to blankets for underaged starving hurricane victims. Apply rude name calling techniques and rig polls to show "public support" to force cowardly politicians to vote alongside you.
- **** Plumber. Drag and connect plumbing against an rapidly expanding suburb and their onslaught of pooh.
- Crime Watch! Battle Crime in a middle-class neighborhood as an impotent middle age man or woman.
- 2 Player IPhone Frisbie? Gyroscope enabled iphone throwing fun! Try catching it between your legs.
- Cape Taxi Driver. This has got to be said, it comes up so often for some reason, or used to. It's a true under ware game concept if there ever was one.
LexAquillia
27-01-2012, 01:27 PM
- Legal Drafter: Take simple agreements and make them as complex as possible. Get bonus's for creating LATIN COMBOS by stringing multiple latin words together. Sue client when they refuse to pay because they can't understand what you've written.
Stalker 103
27-01-2012, 11:46 PM
UnderWare Developer Simulator Deluxe: Play as an Aspiring UnderWare developer as he struggles to create games worthy of impressing the Fussy King of Gamedonia. Now includes the following new features: Late Night Coding Sessions; Eviction; Binge Drinking and Server Crashes
Forum Troll: Play as a recently awakened Troll on a quest to annoy and alienate as many people as Troll-anely possible using nothing but words, links and off topic arguments
Cardboard Box Simulator Revised Edition 2: Play as a Hard Working Card Board box who strives to be the best he can be. Start out as a PC Transport box and end the game as a Homeless guys Mattress. Now features Realistic 3D Graphics with State of the Art Motion Sensing technology. Revised Edition 2 has had a JRPG feature added, with Potion making, Monster hunting and Ecchi Scenes aplenty.
dislekcia
29-01-2012, 05:58 AM
...
I think.
I think I'm about to win this thread...
Anglo Boer War Simulator.
Chevron
29-01-2012, 03:11 PM
...
I think.
I think I'm about to win this thread...
Anglo Boer War Simulator.
It could even be an RTS. 3 sides, just like StarCraft.
Stalker 103
29-01-2012, 03:30 PM
3 Sides? Weren't there only two, the Boers and the British? Or was there a third side?
BlackShipsFillt
30-01-2012, 01:48 PM
Cyborgs?
Stalker 103
30-01-2012, 02:45 PM
No I've got it! The third side will be.........Nazis from the future. Hellbent on wiping out our tradition of making Boerewors and out for Winston Churchhills blood (He fought for the Brits during the Boer War)
BlackShipsFillt
09-02-2012, 09:18 PM
Undies Games!
Periscope Extreme! Use your iPad's camera to see from underwater.
Quicktime Apocalypse. Uses the accelerometer to measure your responses in G's. Use maximum force for maximum effect!
LexAquillia
10-02-2012, 04:56 PM
Meh not really on topic, but I can't start a new thread yet since I don't have the required posts :/
Any who, Game Devs, you can now get 150% tax break for RnD costs.
Full analysis is here: http://www.michalsons.co.za/tax-break-for-software-developers/10169/
Short version:
You can deduct your expenses for licences, staff salaries for developing new games or "updating" existing games.
:)
Maybe an Admin can move this to it's own thread?
BlackShipsFillt
10-02-2012, 06:17 PM
WWWWWHat!
Do we get paid now for RnD? (Busy reading the article now, this sounds really exciting)
Edit: Having read it now it seems to me that any prototyping is tax deductible as well as any improvement to the functionality of the game?
This mean then that game jams are tax deductible (which is sweet!)... and that iterative development (where you typically create first and then improve upon repeatedly) benefits far more tax wise?
Edit: I think I gather now that the updating part only applies to existing products. Unless I'm confused. Do improvements to a game that is still in development constitute "developing or significantly improving any invention, design, [or]computer program"?
Very lttp, but here goes:
I agree with Azimuth. Indie stems from 'independant', right? Hence things like 'Independant Games Festival', etc.
From that one would deduce that someone is an indie developer when he creates a game without any financial backing from a publisher and gets to make all the calls concerning decisions regarding his/her/their game. Why differentiate between people who meet that criteria simply because one person/group does it to place food on their table, and the other does it in his/her/their spare time?
If someone makes an indie movie, and does it in his spare time after work, then goes on to sell the movie online and make a bunch of cash, he's an indie movie producer. You can't say 'no he not indie coz he not doing it to buy food lolor'.
Also, there's a big difference between someone who develops with the intent to sell (Nicholas) and someone who literally messes around in the afternoons because it's his hobby. Nicholas is an indie developer. Telling him he's not simply because other people haven't labelled him one is some pretty wack logic right there. He makes and funds games himself, with the intent of selling them. That's an indie developer. Telling him otherwise is elitist.
Saying someone isn't an indie because he doesn't do it for a living. That's elitist.
The bigger question? Why make a distinction at all? What does it matter anyway? The entire reason for making a distinction in the first place reeks of elitism.
"I'm not looking down on you, but you're not indie because I don't think people who don't make games for a living can be considered indies, so there!"
LexAquillia
10-02-2012, 09:16 PM
WWWWWHat!
Do we get paid now for RnD? (Busy reading the article now, this sounds really exciting)
Edit: Having read it now it seems to me that any prototyping is tax deductible as well as any improvement to the functionality of the game?
Short answer yes. You know what's also cool ? Legal Costs are also deductable, and if your a Pty at 150%, thats right, paying a lawyer to do your EULA's and stuff can actually earn you money from the tax man :D
This mean then that game jams are tax deductible (which is sweet!)... and that iterative development (where you typically create first and then improve upon repeatedly) benefits far more tax wise?
Game Jams would only be deductable if you can show that the end product resulted in an actual income (or you at least trying to get an income), you can do research for researches sake unfortunately and get it as a tax deduction.
Edit: I think I gather now that the updating part only applies to existing products. Unless I'm confused. Do improvements to a game that is still in development constitute "developing or significantly improving any invention, design, [or]computer program"?
Correct needs to be updates for existing released games, so DLC is tax deductable, as are patches etc. Developments on currently in development games will still be covered by the "creation of new computer programs" though...
I'd like to chime in on the Indie debate (just to keep it relevant) and Indie Developer is one who can get tax deductions for making his games ;)
BlackShipsFillt
10-02-2012, 09:21 PM
The bigger question? Why make a distinction at all? What does it matter anyway? The entire reason for making a distinction in the first place reeks of elitism.
"I'm not looking down on you, but you're not indie because I don't think people who don't make games for a living can be considered indies, so there!"
Well, not that I particularly care about the term "Indie" myself, but you seemed to have ignored Dislekcia's argument and ascribed to him motives other than what he stated were his motives.
Being independent of publishers doesn't really apply if you are making games without the intention to sell them. I mean... sure you're independent of publishers, but that doesn't accurately describe what you are doing. A lot of other terms would better describe your game development status. "Indie" only had real meaning for anyone when in order to successfully release a game a studio required publishers, the internet changed that.
I mean, sticking Gas Powered Games (who made Supreme Commander) and a programming student who makes Sudoku puzzles for his parents in the same category makes the category itself kind of meaningless.
And as Dislekcia said, he's trying to create a more useful term to describe a particular portion of of the game development community as the term "Indie" no longer carries any useful meaning. Suggesting that he means otherwise is kind of rude.
Here's another point: What does Indie Rock mean to you? (If you aren't familiar with the movement it is a kind of less testosterone-fuled alt-rock that often incorporates elements of folk and electronica).
The point being "Indie" now means a particular style music industry rather than a business model. There is a good chance that that is exactly what is going to become of the term "Indie" in games. In fact, if you have a look at the IGF, this may have already happened.
That said, "Indie" as a style absolutely excludes Nicholas Nel, his style is most definitely budget-starved-AAA.
BlackShipsFillt
10-02-2012, 09:26 PM
I'd like to chime in on the Indie debate (just to keep it relevant) and Indie Developer is one who can get tax deductions for making his games ;)
I'm liking indies more and more. Also I really really love this idea that I can hire lawyers to earn me money (once I've asked the Minister of Science and technology nicely)... I'm totally going to start picking fights in the cinema! :P
dislekcia
11-02-2012, 04:56 AM
The bigger question? Why make a distinction at all? What does it matter anyway? The entire reason for making a distinction in the first place reeks of elitism.
"I'm not looking down on you, but you're not indie because I don't think people who don't make games for a living can be considered indies, so there!"
It's a distinction I've come across a lot at events like the IGF/GDC, E3 and IndieCade. This is not something I pulled out of a hat, it's something that I've realised: There's a growing community of people who make games to earn a self-sustaining living that don't identify with hobbyist game developers.
The distinction is useful to me for a whole host of reasons: I immediately know what I should and shouldn't talk about in terms of evaluating someone's game - to put that in perspective, I say completely different things to Fuzzy or BlackShips when I play their games than I do to a forumite that is simply learning their trade; I know what level of time and effort someone is likely to be putting into their games at the moment; I know more about what they can teach me, and yes, both hobbyists and non-hobbyists have boatloads to teach me, no matter how stupidly elitist you might think I am.
As a definition, I find it useful to focus on the self-sustainability of game development. A spare-time-only developer depends on another job/family/income/other resources in many ways in order to keep doing their development, they're not in a position to sustain their development with their development. Yes, you could argue that nobody starts in that position, but I've never claimed otherwise, only that it's a useful thing to know up front when I meet new people.
The entire point that the distinction is not visible, let alone valuable, to you pretty much emphasises my point... None of the hobbyist developers I've met at any of the US events I've been to felt denigrated or condescended to by the "hobbyist" moniker that they self-identified as, no matter what their final ambitions were. They were simply stating the truth of their current situations - "indie" as a label that only talks about whether someone has a publishing agreement or not is useless and people are treating that definition as such, hence the emergence of a different pattern.
Call me whatever you want, that doesn't change what I've observed happening, nor the utility I get from it.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.4 Copyright © 2019 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.