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View Full Version : Haggling, in games, as something fun.



BlackShipsFillt
18-09-2011, 01:01 AM
Fengol tweeted a lovely little idea which went something like:

Why is bartering in games always just two inventories and a "buy" button.

"Bartering" is sometimes a skill you can become good at, but that is just a modifier... The question Fengol asked was: Where is the gameplay? ... and in something that can be quite challenging, and rewarding, in real life... why is noone making it fun or interesting.

Of course sticking in a mini-game there is no fun. That just delays the purchase and frustrates the player.

The challenging, and therefore fun part, of bartering is bluffing and gauging you're opponent's expectations and thresholds...

Of course games only involving virtual worlds with lowered risks the system can't be something that can just be brute forced... always asking lower and bluffing cannot be a winning strategy, because that is no fun either...

What I'd suggest is that in a game, like Fable for example, where people's esteem of the player and people's wellbeing are somewhat simulated, and there are no screens where you can look at two inventories... Hold on... in fact now that I think about it Fable does have haggling...

Although it wasn't fun in Fable. What I'd really like for a haggling game is a system a bit like LA Noire, which allows you to read merchant's faces, and maybe even do things like intentionally short change them and then suddenly distract them with a story so they forget to count the money... Which would work nicely in the Fable universe as most of the NPCs have about the same smarts as a golden retriever and less appeal... In fact I bet Peter Molyneux has something just like this written on a wall somewhere.

Anyway... those are my thoughts... It was a bit too long to tweet so if you do read it Fengol, that's my response.

I wonder what Fengol was thinnking...

Gazza_N
18-09-2011, 02:56 AM
I've been thinking about this sort of system after playing the "social boss battles" in DX3 and being disappointed at the convo-tree nature of them. In my mind, the trick would be to have a flexible system rather than a convo tree that can be beaten by attrition and memorisation. The amount of content this would involve could be a sticking point though. <_<

The best system I could think of would be to generate an absolute zero point on the price of goods beyond which the merchant wouldn't go, which would probably be based on a world economy value (or the player's reputation). You could then have differing stances that you could take in forcing the price down (diplomatic, emotional, intimidatory, quid-pro-quo) that a given merchant would be more susceptable to based on weighted stats, and you would have to guage the most effective by attempting each type via a simple convo wheel. Perhaps having an intensity to each approach would work too, so you could gently intimidate ("I know what you did last summer") or just go all out (*hit face with axe*). Based on their temperment weightings (which could be boosted based on player character knowledge of certain things, such as family troubles or criminal dealings), this would either lower the price a little, a lot, or just cause them to break down negotiations totally (either through stubborness or death, whichever applies). Their temperment weightings would be reflected by their responses in terms of body language or reply wording. Once you hit the zero point, that's it. No amount of haggling will bring them lower, except in those special cases where your "attack" is boosted.

BlackShipsFillt
19-09-2011, 02:13 PM
What if haggling were built into the theme of the game. In the world that you're in all the traders expect everyone to haggle and will charge up to 100 times their bottom price otherwise. And a haggling ability would be a skill much like sword fighting, which increases through experience, and, like in sword fighting, some haggles are too high level to be attempted at the start; the player needs to build up to them.

What if the haggling gained some of the other properties of combat? As in during a haggle the merchant casts a "Iron Will" spell upon himself, to which the player could counter with an "Alcohol Addition" curse, to which the vendor replies with a "Your Mother Joke". That kind of thing, with different weaknesses and unknowns like "Does the level 10 vendor have another 'All consuming Greed' enchantment?" or will my "Empathy Bomb" make it past his "Racism Shield".

Of course as soon as bartering has all these mechanics the process will take much longer, so this could only work in a game where the item exchanges are quite rare, like Fable. It's doable, and I'm not a fan of item management, although I do like to upgrade often...

Gazza_N
20-09-2011, 03:21 AM
I see no reason why it couldn't be a game on its own, with that sort of depth. I have the mental image of a guy prancing through a flea market with the objective of "buy ALL the things!". I like the idea of it being verbal "combat" too.

Holy crap. Couple it with a JRPG-style turn-based system, and you could have something solid, methinks.

xyber
20-09-2011, 07:46 AM
Recettear: An Item Shop's Tale :)
http://store.steampowered.com/app/70400/?snr=1_4_4__13

Gazza_N
21-09-2011, 03:52 AM
Recettear has a haggle mechanic? Awesome! How does it work?

Curse my creditcardlessness. :<

xyber
21-09-2011, 07:34 AM
Too long since played and I did not play it too much, so can't remember the details.
Try this http://recettear.wikia.com/wiki/Haggling

Chippit
22-09-2011, 10:56 PM
I don't actually think Recettear's a good example for this. Its haggling is basically as transparent as haggling for trade deals in Civilization. You're not so much haggling as you are guessing what a predefined threshold is and trying to get as close as possible to it.

I can't actually think of a game that does it 'properly', though. Not, at least, to the degree suggested in this thread, where it's not a game mechanic, but rather an entire facet of the game with submechanics of its own. Basically, we need someone to do an Echo Bazaar on shopping.