View Full Version : State of Indie game development.
dislekcia
03-05-2008, 06:19 PM
Read this right now. (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3640/the_state_of_indie_gaming.php)
That is all.
-D
Tr00jg
03-05-2008, 08:43 PM
Great read. Thanks for the link.
MochiAds is awesome. That way you can still get revenue even if people take your (flash) game off your site.
Gazza_N
04-05-2008, 11:12 AM
Veeeeery interesting, although I struggle to believe that Facebook, of all places, is being seen as a legitimate distribution portal. :\
Tr00jg
04-05-2008, 02:14 PM
I definitely think so. You have a readily available user-base, you have viral marketing, you have casual competition gaming and nobody can rip it, since it won't work without facebook.
Cyberninja
04-05-2008, 03:04 PM
A very good read. Thanks for the link Dis. =]
Fengol
05-05-2008, 10:47 AM
I found the article very pessimistic and full of "someone needs to make a change" without any suggestions from himself. It actually just made me say "Bugger it, I'll do my own thing without any hope of getting cash".
dislekcia
05-05-2008, 12:46 PM
I found the article very pessimistic and full of "someone needs to make a change" without any suggestions from himself. It actually just made me say "Bugger it, I'll do my own thing without any hope of getting cash".
I dunno, I didn't find it pessimistic... At least, not compared to some of the material that was linked to in the article. Like the Russel Carrol interview, that was doom and gloom all over the place.
I did find it extremely strange that people are heckling over the idea of what constitutes "indie" these days though. Some people want to exclude casual, others want to exclude AAA self-funded studios and even places like Introversion. I don't get that.
-D
Korax
05-05-2008, 12:53 PM
Clasification is just politics most of the time.
D - I sent you an email.. have your email addy changed or are you ignoring it?
Tr00jg
05-05-2008, 03:12 PM
I did find it extremely strange that people are heckling over the idea of what constitutes "indie" these days though. Some people want to exclude casual, others want to exclude AAA self-funded studios and even places like Introversion. I don't get that.
-D
What constitutes indie in your eyes? No publisher behind your back?
Evil_Toaster
05-05-2008, 03:51 PM
What constitutes indie in your eyes? No publisher behind your back?
Small teams of crazy people.
Karuji
05-05-2008, 03:54 PM
Im with Dis here to put it literaly Indie is short for indipendent so if your doing it by yourself with out some big company giving you cash its idipendent.
Its similar to the thing with music especialy rock/metal hard rock is heavier then certain genre's of metal you in the end its all just metal so same applies here its all indie just a different subcatagory of indie
dislekcia
05-05-2008, 08:23 PM
Clasification is just politics most of the time.
D - I sent you an email.. have your email addy changed or are you ignoring it?
I got the email... Couldn't actually make sense of most of it TBH. But I got a PM from the Polish guy, we're talking back and forth, so no worries :)
What constitutes indie in your eyes? No publisher behind your back?
Building a game without big publisher funding. Valve acts as its own publisher, so they're the closest thing to in-between.
-D
Korax
05-05-2008, 10:02 PM
D-
In that case I'll put it in simpler terms next time if that would make things clearer.
Not replying is a tad rude, don't you think?
He (the polish guy) is not in an authoritive position over at gamedev.pl so I'm not sure what its going to be worth. Although I don't think we have reach critical mass yet with regards to compos if you disregard GM (or other helpers) for the moment for this excersize.
By that I don't mean "lack of skill", but rather lack of compos that doesn't use "helpers" in their composition.
Two things being done right locally sofar is the compos running on G.D till now and the international reach (still needs more work) SAGD has got.. he came in via SAGD.
I think the next two years we should see significant effort towards indie game development in SA with increased ease of use of API's and platforms.
Self funding though is key at the moment as its hard finding angel investment or VC support. I have established Excentrax Games in this "self-funded" manner, and about 35% of what I earn is allocated to this company and the development of our XNA-based FPS engine.
Personally, Id like to see more people following this route, rather than trying to secure funds by "lending", which is dangerous terrirory and a probable waste of time.
dislekcia
06-05-2008, 01:09 AM
D-
In that case I'll put it in simpler terms next time if that would make things clearer.
Not replying is a tad rude, don't you think?
I'm slightly busy, marketing my company's first cellphone game. I hardly reply to all the emails I get these days, if you want special treatment, pay for my time.
He (the polish guy) is not in an authoritive position over at gamedev.pl so I'm not sure what its going to be worth. Although I don't think we have reach critical mass yet with regards to compos if you disregard GM (or other helpers) for the moment for this excersize.
By that I don't mean "lack of skill", but rather lack of compos that doesn't use "helpers" in their composition.
Couldn't really be bothered about exclusive competitions. We'll post the news and info on the contest when it starts here and those that are keen and meet the criteria can join in. That's how it always goes, no worries.
Two things being done right locally sofar is the compos running on G.D till now and the international reach (still needs more work) SAGD has got.. he came in via SAGD.
That's not what he told me:
BUT I've written to SAGameDev (I found them through the link on your site), too and they're kind of interested in cooperation as there are more programmers there.
I think the next two years we should see significant effort towards indie game development in SA with increased ease of use of API's and platforms.
Oh, you mean like people starting companies and making games? Already happening...
Self funding though is key at the moment as its hard finding angel investment or VC support. I have established Excentrax Games in this "self-funded" manner, and about 35% of what I earn is allocated to this company and the development of our XNA-based FPS engine.
Personally, Id like to see more people following this route, rather than trying to secure funds by "lending", which is dangerous terrirory and a probable waste of time.
You always talk about this... Grats and all that, but when are we going to see a game? Or progress towards a game? How many times have you started writing an engine as an Excentrax initiative now? No offense, but you really go on and on about not borrowing money, perhaps that wasn't the problem with your first efforts?
-D
FuzzYspo0N
06-05-2008, 03:04 AM
im with Dis on this one, iv heard of a millions engines in the making (esp on sagd) and i never see games...
and about 35% of what I earn is allocated to this company and the development of our XNA-based FPS engine.
as far as im concerned cost involved in indie game development is either in the beginning for an engine, or perhaps an artist. This makes no sense if you are making an engine, you are paying for making an engine or are you paying for XNA or what is it you are paying for? i make tons of prototype games, and im even working on a few full fledged 3D games, so far its cost me 150 bucks, and that was to buy game maker for prototyping interesting 2d Games...
maybe im just weird but i dont see ANY costs involved for me taking an engine and making a game (especially not an engine, on an engine)
Squid
06-05-2008, 11:45 AM
Two things being done right locally sofar is the compos running on G.D till now and the international reach (still needs more work) SAGD has got.. he came in via SAGD.
Of interest (http://www.devmag.org.za/usage/usage_200804.html#TOPCTRYS)
Higushi
06-05-2008, 01:24 PM
Aweh, shot for the link dis, I've been away from the community for a while and this brings some perspective on where things are in the indie community at the moment. Interesting read.
Tr00jg
06-05-2008, 05:24 PM
HIGUSHI!! Where've you been? I thought I recognised your face in your ava.
Higushi
07-05-2008, 01:34 AM
Heya Troojg!
Oh, I've just been a student for the past while :) . Lost touch with game.dev when I went to res last year (at Stellenbosch Uni) and things just took a turn to crazy, the student life here is really intense. Now I'm still staying in Stellenbosch (moved out of res), studying Multimedia through UNISA, and things are more chilled and life is lekker rustig so its back to deving and re-establishing my lost pastimes!
Its good to be back. Great to see some old familiar friends, and to see many new faces too! :D
Tr00jg
07-05-2008, 06:28 PM
Heya Troojg!
Oh, I've just been a student for the past while :) . Lost touch with game.dev when I went to res last year (at Stellenbosch Uni) and things just took a turn to crazy, the student life here is really intense. :D
I can vouch for that! It is pretty intense, but loving it all the way. :)
Korax
08-05-2008, 03:16 PM
That's not what he told me:
BUT I've written to SAGameDev (I found them through the link on your site), too and they're kind of interested in cooperation as there are more programmers there.
The same message I got in the mail. ;)
Oh, you mean like people starting companies and making games? Already happening...
So, you are saying we got more PC game development companies actually holding a Publisher contracts than I previously thought. Maybe sharing some links would be cool, so we can let everyone know.
There are alot more others, which I'm guessing you are referring too, which is good, like cellphone games, indie games, one or two-man games, but my reference point, and the part I'm intrested in is the larger PC games "on-the-shelves" type of thing.
You always talk about this... Grats and all that, but when are we going to see a game? Or progress towards a game? How many times have you started writing an engine as an Excentrax initiative now? No offense, but you really go on and on about not borrowing money, perhaps that wasn't the problem with your first efforts?
Progress towards a game (before hiring artists etc) should be around Sepember/October or very close. We kicked-off development in March, and things are still slow (too slow even) because of Visual Studio / XNA / TV3D issues. Its hard to settle on a specific tech especially keeping in kind long-term goals, but with XNA3 looming, it should resolve most of the concerns, as restarting isn't an option.
Regarding the number of *engines* you are referring to. Well, before things got serious (when I still worked for somebody else) .. probably hundreds half-completed, yet educational attempts. After things got serious (when I started working for myself, setting up my business), maybe one time, excluding this gamedev project.
While the tech is in development, we are hard at work building our business that would fund EG at the time I need to start thinking of hiring. Nobody want to work for free or cheap.
Hands-up anyone willing to work for nothing as your dayjob that needs to pay bills? ;)
Like anything else, game development is also a business, and you need reliable cashflow to make things happen, especially when you are wanting to employ people, esp. if they got families that might rely on that cashflow, and at the end you still needs to turn a profit.
I'm not even touching on stuff like Tax, Labour Law, Accounting etc.
Any sane person building a business, like a gamedev one, and have the means to grow your own capital, it sounds insanely stupid to "lend" the money and give away close to half the shares and be at the mercy of a creditor before you can properly turn a profit.
We had a highly detailed Business Plan consisting of around 200 pages back in 2002, which didn't help us. Its notoriously difficult to secure funds for game development locally.
We tried locally and internationally back then.
Locally, the VC's don't understand game development well enough.. no track record, and internationally you come across as not skilled enough.. because of the track record. :)
I could be wrong, but as far as common knowledge goes, what I heard at least, is the way I-Imagine stopped producing games. I stand corrected though on it.
As for the notion of *engines*, I'm working on a game-engine (the logic), not a from-scratch full blown engine thing, its a waste of time.
As for SAGD's connotation to engines, well.. SAGD is a gamedev portal, not a movement, just like the rest of the international ones, but still has a lot of growth to do.
The people that makes use of the SAGD portal can do what they like, as long as it relates to game development one way or another, I'm not influencing people, I'm not a control-freak that tries to tell people what to do.
Evil_Toaster
08-05-2008, 03:59 PM
The Formula-TM: Talk less, make games more. ;)
It seems you don't consider a game a game unless it's a AAA on the shelf game? Theres a whole world of little games roaming around the net these days, and some of them make decent amounts of cash. Personally, I don't like the idea of being involved on a 2-3 year AAA project with dozens of people building the assload of assets expected in a game of that size, not to mention the amount of compatability testing, play testing and optimisation work involved.
Building little indie games gives me far more agility and creative control than I could ever hope to have on a mammoth project.
Korax
08-05-2008, 04:39 PM
It is a game, just like any other not matter if its big or small, but I'm focussing on larger games, which does take longer to produce. I rather like games with lots of assets, but to create those assets is where the costs comes in.
Getting those costs funded is where it gets tricky.
I have a taste for the more mid-sized (yet do-able) games.
FuzzYspo0N
08-05-2008, 05:29 PM
such as ? name some titles so i can imagine your thinking. im not against going larger, im just against wearing shoes that are 5 sizes larger then what fit me... where 1 or 2 is bearable :)
Cyberninja
08-05-2008, 08:56 PM
It is a game, just like any other not matter if its big or small, but I'm focussing on larger games, which does take longer to produce. I rather like games with lots of assets, but to create those assets is where the costs comes in.
Getting those costs funded is where it gets tricky.
I have a taste for the more mid-sized (yet do-able) games.
I don't understand your level of thinking here.
You want to create these "larger" games, yet you say that funding is a problem. So why not focus on smaller (polished) games for now? At least that way, you build up your portfolio, experience and more importantly your assets, to a point where producing these larger "on-the-shelve" games becomes financially more viable. Wouldn't that be a better option?
A great game will be a great game, regardless of where it comes from.
Squid
08-05-2008, 09:06 PM
I think you've got to start out small if you want to make it big.
Seriously, starting with a big project and a proprietary engine sounds like a formula for disaster.
Best of luck anyway though.
dislekcia
08-05-2008, 10:50 PM
I think you've got to start out small if you want to make it big.
Seriously, starting with a big project and a proprietary engine sounds like a formula for disaster.
Best of luck anyway though.
I'd listen to Squid, seeing as he has a professional game released and is still only in Matric.
-D
Higushi
08-05-2008, 11:48 PM
I'd listen to Squid, seeing as he has a professional game released and is still only in Matric.
Matric? Professional game?... shows how long I've been gone... Please point me to this game.
Tr00jg
09-05-2008, 12:00 AM
Matric? Professional game?... shows how long I've been gone... Please point me to this game.
It's mobile educational game, called Mathstermind.
I think we need some more info on this. How's it going?
dislekcia
09-05-2008, 01:24 AM
It's mobile educational game, called Mathstermind.
I think we need some more info on this. How's it going?
Done :)
http://mathstermind.greatgamesexperiment.com
-D
01DT!m3r
09-05-2008, 06:25 AM
Awesome foursome . Can we download it for free . And if so can we run it with an emulator on pc. I say pics the other day it looks awesome .
Thaumaturge
09-05-2008, 12:27 PM
It's looking very good, you two! I'm impressed. ^_^
I see that you've taken a leaf from Valve's book in the inclusion of achievement awards - very cool! ^_^
Karuji
12-05-2008, 09:21 PM
Props to Squid and Dis really a good game which imtempted to buy (an explantion how via pm would be nice lets not derail the topic please)
But i liked the comment on valve being the perfect in the middle which i think is realy true. Self funded and make AAA games (i could go on about valve but then again also off-topic)
But start small is good. Things dont just start big, they grow.
dislekcia
12-05-2008, 11:59 PM
Props to Squid and Dis really a good game which imtempted to buy (an explantion how via pm would be nice lets not derail the topic please)
But i liked the comment on valve being the perfect in the middle which i think is realy true. Self funded and make AAA games (i could go on about valve but then again also off-topic)
But start small is good. Things dont just start big, they grow.
You want MathsterMind? Neat :) Might I ask why you want it, so that we can figure out what it is that people like about the game's premise?
We're looking for ways to start selling it (or a newer version), this is the part of game development that I'm new to: Marketing...
-D
BlackHawk
13-05-2008, 10:04 AM
I liked the tone of the article. The author tries to give constructive feedback/points to his readers and that's more than most articles I've read (not a lot of articles, to be sure). There will always be calls for more creativity, but first (independent) gaming needs to get the attention of critics other than the normal gaming critics. The author's point on the wide influences of "typical" artists is well made - games need to start being included in that mix.
dislekcia
13-05-2008, 12:57 PM
I liked the tone of the article. The author tries to give constructive feedback/points to his readers and that's more than most articles I've read (not a lot of articles, to be sure). There will always be calls for more creativity, but first (independent) gaming needs to get the attention of critics other than the normal gaming critics. The author's point on the wide influences of "typical" artists is well made - games need to start being included in that mix.
And he provides some awesome links and services too. Mochi-Ads are responsive and super helpful, I signed up to ask a few questions and they'd replied in 10 minutes. All us SA residents will be glad to hear that they're adding support for MoneyBookers payments, which work just fine here (unlike Paypal).
They're also interested in Flash Lite :)
-D
Karuji
13-05-2008, 06:52 PM
You want MathsterMind? Neat :) Might I ask why you want it, so that we can figure out what it is that people like about the game's premise?
We're looking for ways to start selling it (or a newer version), this is the part of game development that I'm new to: Marketing...
-D
Well like any cell game it seems like a good way to kill time while waiting. I also like the tf2 style achievements and it also seem like a decent way to improve math skills instead of actualy doing how work its a game which is just way more attractive to me and well i have some friends who constantly get 90+ % for maths and i want them to suffer :D
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