View Full Version : Desktop Dungeons
Azimuth
25-02-2010, 01:14 PM
I present, something I rarely do: fanart!
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_4txIm0ftQkQ/S4X5MhIZY3I/AAAAAAAAJs8/bVjGqkTgDBU/s800/Desktop%20Dungeons.jpg
I GOT YOU NOW, GOAT!
The dungeon has a ceiling? o_O
Chippit
25-02-2010, 01:24 PM
The dungeon has a ceiling? o_O
It's one of those maaaagical optical illusion thingums that you can only see from one side. That's why you can still see through it from the top.
Either that, or Miktar has too many memories of stuff like Daggerfall and Wolfenstein 3D.
salejemaster
25-02-2010, 01:43 PM
The pic is amazing :)
iceblademush
25-02-2010, 04:31 PM
Just got a whole bunch of random ideas, and thought id make suggestions and see what other people think :
- How about destroying a potion instead of picking it up , like Gauntlet for an effect?
- How about having mini portals/trapdoors that open into other levels or layers, for example a small 8x8 room with a few monsters, like a mini dungeon, or even smaller..
- How about mini quests, for example in the Glyph slots you could also pick up items (i know this adds complexity to the game, but its just an idea) for example retrieve a magic sword. I guess this is similar to altars, but involves returning the item? Or simpler, more quests, like kill 3 zombies, or kill 1 level higher monster, and more varied rewards.
- Doodad tile support! :)
Ok thats it for now...
Miktar
25-02-2010, 05:23 PM
The dungeon has a ceiling? o_O
Well, it's a Dungeon, isn't it? That implies like, it being, dungeony... unlike, say, Desktop Open Air Maze.. or something.
Nandrew
25-02-2010, 05:30 PM
Heh, Doodad tiles may come in a later version, and they'll probably be made optional so that there's less of a headache for me and the people making custom tiles. :P
The revised religion system may meet your suggestion of more complicated quests. I ain't got derm dungeon set-pieces just yet, but hopefully those will come later, and bring mini-stories along with them.
Azimuth
25-02-2010, 07:25 PM
Well, it's a Dungeon, isn't it? That implies like, it being, dungeony... unlike, say, Desktop Open Air Maze.. or something.
Lulz, I was being facetious. :P
moldar
26-02-2010, 12:14 AM
Ok - since some ideas are being bandied about:
A very scary HOMING PIGEON! When the pigeon has been located (meaning it spots you, too!), it moves towards you by 1 space (if possible) every time you [fight a monster|kill a monster|something else]
So, {what} do you <think> about the idea?
Moldar
ps - yes - I went crazy with my markup . . .
FuzzYspo0N
26-02-2010, 09:20 AM
+1000 win to Miktar.
Tyroie
26-02-2010, 09:25 PM
Hey, I just found this game and have been loving it. :)
I came here to make some suggestions but it sounds like you're already working on most of them.
Though there's one more thing - in ranked games, sometimes it's not possible to get to level 2 without exploring a ton of the map first. I decide to restart a lot because I feel like this kills my odds of winning. Does anyone else run into this a lot?
Nandrew
27-02-2010, 02:57 AM
@moldar: there may be one or two experiments related to monster movement, I'll just have to be careful because it's a departure from one of the game's core dynamics ... it may well be done in a different way, so we'll see how that goes. ;)
@Tyroie: Map balancing is definitely a concern, though I don't know if I'll be able to get to it immediately. For now, I'm focusing on making games quicker and more convenient so that frustration is minimised.
iceblademush
27-02-2010, 07:29 AM
Some more random suggestions, take em or leave em, or might inspire something from your side? :)
In regards to moving monsters, could you not just do it in the way like the random teleport glyph, except that its always only 1 space away and in the players direction? But i think moving monsters might change the pace/feel of the game. Although it could be quite fun. Memories of the ghost in bubble bobble! :)
Another gameplay suggestion, would be traps, if moving monsters stalked you, you could add traps in the way. Thiefs would avoid traps, for example a spiked pit, might just walk over it and do 10 hp of damage for example.
Another idea is a different attack spell, but was wondering how you would implement it and how it could be different from the standard fire ball spell. An idea would be life drain, so half the damage of a fireball, but half health goes back to you? Another idea would be push, so maybe half damage of a fireball, and pushes the monster back one space? Level Drain is another option, so it costs about 12 to cast, and drains the level of the monster.
Finally, secret unlockable classe/races, for example VAMPIRES, WEREWOLFS, BATTLEMAGES etc etc. Imagine how cool if you got your name in the high score and it says "Werewolf Battlemage" and people would be even more inspired to get a high score/unlock that class/combo.
Ok enough for now, take em or leave em, comments welcome! :)
iceblademush
27-02-2010, 07:45 AM
Another suggestion:
How about the mage classes do more damage with the fireball? Or even start with Fireball or a Magic Missile spell? Then reduce their attack strength a bit more to balance this out. It could even be somethine like 1.5 x or 1.2 x damage as to not upset the balance too much, but more emphasis on casting spells rather than melee.
Another idea would be to make wizards classes attack with magic (Make attacks Magical) ?
Just some more random suggestions...
The Dash
27-02-2010, 08:02 AM
My idea for movement would be as follows :
Monsters stand still if they are a higher level than you. Once they are two levels lower they start randomly wondering around. I mean they've been waiting for you to kill them for like ever and now they're bored.
So with a level 3 player, all the level 1 monsters will start randomly wandering around. and with a level 7, all the monsters level 5 and lower walk around the dungeon
Alternatively. Instead of randomly wondering around, they all try to retreat back to unexplored places, so they dont get killed (Logic right?) The player has to balance killing lower level monsters before they retreat and killing higher levels to level up. Concentrate on killing higher levels all the time, and when you need that one or two xp to level up, you suddenly realize all those level 3 goats have hidden away, and you have to uncover tiles (and waste resources) in order to level up
Speusippus
27-02-2010, 02:51 PM
No movement.
Movement would ruin the game.
If movement were added, you wouldn't have the same type of game anymore.
IMO.
Chainsaw
27-02-2010, 05:12 PM
Was going to wait for v0.5 to download, but my curiosity has gotten the better of me. Just played my first round and loving it so far. You've really outdone yourself this time Nandrew.
Azimuth
27-02-2010, 05:56 PM
No movement.
Movement would ruin the game.
If movement were added, you wouldn't have the same type of game anymore.
IMO.
Well, it's essentially a roguelike, and roguelikes traditionally have moving monsters. :P
Miktar
27-02-2010, 06:56 PM
It's roguelike in that it's randomly generated, but I think DD has moved beyond being a pure roguelike into far more of a puzzle game. Otherwise, we may as well continue to call Diablo 2 and such, roguelikes, since they /are/ evolutions of the genre (and Diablo 1 was originally turn-based just like a roguelike).
I think DD's strength, is that nothing moves. If something did move, I'd rather it be a special circumstance thing than randomly appears, kind of like how Spelunky has random appearances of special areas/monsters.
Chippit
27-02-2010, 07:07 PM
(and Diablo 1 was originally turn-based just like a roguelike).
K, excuse the derail here, but this is news to me. You have a link for that? I've always found Diablo's evolution from roguelikes quite interesting, but I didn't know it started out turn-based too.
Azimuth
27-02-2010, 08:10 PM
It's roguelike in that it's randomly generated, but I think DD has moved beyond being a pure roguelike into far more of a puzzle game. Otherwise, we may as well continue to call Diablo 2 and such, roguelikes, since they /are/ evolutions of the genre (and Diablo 1 was originally turn-based just like a roguelike).
I think DD's strength, is that nothing moves. If something did move, I'd rather it be a special circumstance thing than randomly appears, kind of like how Spelunky has random appearances of special areas/monsters.
Oh, I do agree with you. I like DD just the way it is, and introducing (universal) movement would change it up quite dramatically. The occasional moving enemiy might be an interesting addition, though.
But DD is still largely a roguelike, and Speusippus's suggestion that movement would change the sort of game it is, is questionable. DD is the first roguelike - and it is a roguelike (and I'd say that traditional roguelikes are somewhat like puzzlers too) - I've played where the enemies don't move.
Miktar
27-02-2010, 09:18 PM
I'd say traditional roguelikes are more Tactics than Puzzlers, though it's vague, since the reason I call it a Tactics is because each small situation you encounter is a kind of small puzzle that, once you figure it out, you deal with as just a tactical situation to consider).
In a way, this is uncharted territory really, since DD is unique in how it applies the roguelike conventions of randomly-generated dungeons, yet it forgos with almost all the rest of what the genre conventions are..
It's just the most recognizable genre (roguelike) to attribute to DD, but if you had to apply the same logic to another game, you could say that Borderlands is more FPS than RPG, because it's most noticable convention is FPS, and yet, it's equal parts loot-RPG...
The more I think of it, the more I'd say that DD certainly has a roguelike smell, but it's more 'inspired by' than really being in the genre, even obliquely.
Then again, I've been playing Shiren and Chocobo's Dungeon pretty much non-stop, so DD doesn't seem all that roguelike to me at all. :P
K, excuse the derail here, but this is news to me. You have a link for that? I've always found Diablo's evolution from roguelikes quite interesting, but I didn't know it started out turn-based too.
EDGE 210, page 105 - if you want to read the full article I can scan it for you.
"At first we had it so that you would take a step and then the monsters would. You would swing your sword and then the monsters got their chance. I think this was based on the Nethack or Rogue-style of game that Brevik liked a lot."- Erich Schaefer
Blizzard suggested switching to realtime combat, and a huge piece of Diablo fell into place.
"The moment I put the change in, clicked on a skeleton and my character walked over and smacked it to pieces, the clouds parted", says Brevik, who locked himself in his office for a week to rewrite the necessary code. "The magic was found."
Incidentially, Diablo was made by a team of friends, that landed a deal with Blizzard to get their game published. The team (Erick, Brevik and Erich's brother, Max Schaefer) was known as Condor Games. That's right, Blizzard didn't make Diablo, they just published it.
Condor was founded in 1993.
Azimuth
28-02-2010, 12:29 AM
Incidentially, Diablo was made by a team of friends, that landed a deal with Blizzard to get their game published. The team (Erick, Brevik and Erich's brother, Max Schaefer) was known as Condor Games. That's right, Blizzard didn't make Diablo, they just published it.
That soft pitter-patter is the sound of fanboy tears upon their broken dreams.
Chippit
28-02-2010, 12:37 AM
So Condor became Blizzard North, then, I presume? Interesting.
Anyway, enough derailing of Nandrew's thread, I think. This is what happens when he delays his new release.
Nandrew
28-02-2010, 02:01 AM
GAH! Tell me about it! I'm elbow-deep in vampire arses and specially-themed dungeons, and the end still isn't anywhere in sight. D:
I've also been thinking recently about the classification of DD. It's probably more appropriate to say that it's "thematically" Roguelike more than anything else, drawing from some of the genre's overarching set pieces and actual design philosophies rather than raw game mechanics.
And in that respect, I'd have to agree with the idea of no monster movement. I won't be adding any Roguelike elements just because they're Roguelike things to do -- they have to make sense with the style of the game. That's why monsters don't move, characters don't enjoy raycast vision and the game is, in many ways, a much more deterministic experience. ;)
There will be an element of monster movement in the next version, but it's only in a *very* specific (and pretty rare) scenario and will be entirely player-initiated. I'm all for experimentation, I just don't want to change the game completely. ;)
BlackShipsFillt
28-02-2010, 12:01 PM
So is it a turn-based-dungeon-crawling-RPG-puzzler then?
It still has very real roguelike attributes. A character that levels up and collects things, a random dungeon to explore. All the action is player initiated but its basically monster vs player combat, which is roguelike. Also most of the decisions in Desktop Dungeons are roguelike, choosing to initiate fights based on the relative stats of the hero and an enemy is typically roguelike.
The departure is in the exploration/healing/resource part... which does significantly alter the gameplay. And maybe that there is just the single dungeon. But other than that it definitely feels roguelike.
Miktar
28-02-2010, 06:38 PM
Considering roguelike is the progenitor of practically all action-RPG to date, you could say that EVERYTHING that has player vs monster combat is very roguelike...
neongrey
28-02-2010, 06:53 PM
I wouldn't say moving monsters is one of the defining features of the roguelike genre, though. I realize the definition is pretty fluid but most of it boils down to the extremely random element; the fact that no matter how many times you play, you'll never get exactly the same game each time.
Azimuth
28-02-2010, 08:16 PM
No.
The real definition of any roguelike is: YOU'RE ****ED, LOL.
dislekcia
28-02-2010, 08:25 PM
I wouldn't say moving monsters is one of the defining features of the roguelike genre, though. I realize the definition is pretty fluid but most of it boils down to the extremely random element; the fact that no matter how many times you play, you'll never get exactly the same game each time.
I'd agree with this, the random generation of play experiences and the huge palette of events that can happen are the primary features of a rogue-like for me... I'd even go so far as to call S.A.I.S. a rogue-like game.
mtarini
01-03-2010, 12:27 PM
I just *LOVE* this little game!
You can tell it is made with love and devotion.
It is sound and nice. Full of ideas and well balanced. The concept *ROCKS*!
FIVE STARS ^____^
A masterpiece.
thank you!
Mini-suggestions (cosmetics):
1) The "increase stats" icons currently look like the icon of increased stat.
Instead, I would make them "object icons", looking like typical objects you pick up in roguelike games:
- "increase attack": a stereotypical weapon (sword, so it can stay as it is)
- "increase HP": a stereotypical armor (a chest plate? or maybe a helm?)
- "increase MANA" a stereotypical magic object (a scroll? or maybe a wand or ring)
2) Add icons to embellish dialogs of shops and praying temples
- icon would represent the offer being made, e.g. a weapon in shops and deity symbol in temples.
3) Give 9 different names for each lvl of each creature (leaving icon as is).
For example, goblin would go form "snaga" (lvl1) to "hobgoblin chieftain" (lvl 9).
Dragons has colors, from white to golden. Golem has materials, from mud to steel, etc.
coendou
01-03-2010, 04:00 PM
I just *LOVE* this little game!
You can tell it is made with love and devotion.
It is sound and nice. Full of ideas and well balanced. The concept *ROCKS*!
FIVE STARS ^____^
A masterpiece.
thank you!
Mini-suggestions (cosmetics):
1) The "increase stats" icons currently look like the icon of increased stat.
Instead, I would make them "object icons", looking like typical objects you pick up in roguelike games:
- "increase attack": a stereotypical weapon (sword, so it can stay as it is)
- "increase HP": a stereotypical armor (a chest plate? or maybe a helm?)
- "increase MANA" a stereotypical magic object (a scroll? or maybe a wand or ring)
2) Add icons to embellish dialogs of shops and praying temples
- icon would represent the offer being made, e.g. a weapon in shops and deity symbol in temples.
3) Give 9 different names for each lvl of each creature (leaving icon as is).
For example, goblin would go form "snaga" (lvl1) to "hobgoblin chieftain" (lvl 9).
Dragons has colors, from white to golden. Golem has materials, from mud to steel, etc.
1. Don't really like the idea, makes it unnessecary complicated for new players, they would get it quite quickly, but i like the way it is now.
2. Not a bad idea, but since the low graphics, prob hard to make these symbols recognisable.
3. like this idea, but the sprites of those characters should be different according to lvl as well if you implement such a thing(just my opinion)/
BlackShipsFillt
01-03-2010, 06:45 PM
1) The "increase stats" icons currently look like the icon of increased stat.
Instead, I would make them "object icons", looking like typical objects you pick up in roguelike games:
- "increase attack": a stereotypical weapon (sword, so it can stay as it is)
- "increase HP": a stereotypical armor (a chest plate? or maybe a helm?)
- "increase MANA" a stereotypical magic object (a scroll? or maybe a wand or ring)
etc.
I like this idea, adds to the flavour of the game (not that the flavour is lacking)... I remember (when I was a new player) the icons were not particularly self explanatory even as they currently stand... making them look like objects will be equally not self explanatory, but will look more appealing. (Isn't there going to be a tooltip feature now anyway)
3) Give 9 different names for each lvl of each creature (leaving icon as is).
For example, goblin would go form "snaga" (lvl1) to "hobgoblin chieftain" (lvl 9).
Dragons has colors, from white to golden. Golem has materials, from mud to steel, etc.
I don't know if they need unique names for every level, however I like the idea of fun flavourful variants, like the steel, gold or mud golem, which could have different names and different appearances. Coming up with 10 might be a bit much however, and implementing this at all it might also call for monster ability adjustments, (eg mud golems = 25% magic resist, gold = 65% magic resist) which then affects balancing, but also creates more dungeon variation (because having high level golems in a level will effect player strategies). Also I would like different flavours of the Meatman, like chicken, lamb or smokey rib.
Ooh Ooh. I don't know if this is a planned feature or has already been suggested, but a polymorph glyph. Turns enemies into equal level goats, but maybe only for an attack or two (goats have magic resist).
Also, the +20% damage glypth is definitely useful, but not the most exciting. How about having a +60% damage glyph at a higher mana cost, or even a double strike glyph (I'm all for greater dungeon variations, though I realise balancing must be difficult at this stage).
coendou
01-03-2010, 07:34 PM
I'm not to fond of the increasing stats of monsters like stated above, it would make the first few lavels way to easy, and the last few increasingly hard, leading to more insolvable games.
iceblademush
01-03-2010, 08:20 PM
Also, changing the colours of the monsters would leave to a confusing looking dungeon, with too much going on. Right now every monster and glyph is pretty much instantly recognisable due to the colour of it, if you have 9 x variations it would be really confusing!
salejemaster
01-03-2010, 11:52 PM
Hey, can anyone give an update or ETA on v0.5, a while back i think you mentioned it would be out in 2 weeks, don't exactly know how much time has passed since then so just asking :), peace
Shadow_Con
02-03-2010, 09:14 AM
Hey, can anyone give an update or ETA on v0.5, a while back i think you mentioned it would be out in 2 weeks, don't exactly know how much time has passed since then so just asking :), peace
patience is a virtue ;) and i dont think even nandrew knows exactly when yet.
Nferno
02-03-2010, 09:20 AM
Nandrew, first I'd like to say that this is such an addictive game you have created. The amount of frustration and enjoyment this has brought me only comes on par with the Megaman series. Holy ****, they're both so difficult, yet I can't put them down.
Can't wait for the next version to come out, I'll have my download finger ready.
Oh, and I've found it impossible to kill Aequitas. Damn that beard!
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc28/BlazingNferno/Aequitas.jpg
Long live the DD.
Squid
02-03-2010, 09:40 AM
Oh, and I've found it impossible to kill Aequitas. Damn that beard!
Aeq is the easiest boss imo, have you killed any of the others?
Nferno
02-03-2010, 09:50 AM
Aeq is the easiest boss imo, have you killed any of the others?
I have killed the 'Meaty Monster' I think it's called. "Don't stare at me. I'm not infringing on copyrighted material!" or something to that effect :)
It just works out that every time I reach Aequitas I have just enough health to get one-shotted and no resources left. Damn, I need to manage my potions better :/
salejemaster
02-03-2010, 11:48 AM
I have killed the 'Meaty Monster' I think it's called. "Don't stare at me. I'm not infringing on copyrighted material!" or something to that effect :)
It just works out that every time I reach Aequitas I have just enough health to get one-shotted and no resources left. Damn, I need to manage my potions better :/
I see on your screenshot that you are level 9 when attacking him it is probably a better idea to start attacking him when you are level 8 or lower but have more potions and resources, try to save the fireball spell for him kuz he has high damage but low hp and has no physical or magic damage reduction
Nandrew
02-03-2010, 01:10 PM
Thanks for all of the idea throwarounds -- it's kinda cool seeing them discussed and bandied by the community members themselves. :P
Tentatively announcing a release for Friday (or maybe Monday if I take the weekend for testing). Probably haven't been working nearly as much on this thing as I should have (full-time game proggies are also my concern!), but the release should have these at minimum:
- Expanded, gradual unlock systems to keep vets occupied for a while. ;)
- Three new classes
- Four new challenge dungeons
- Two new races
- Revamped religion system
That's aside from graphical changes, interface overhauls, bugfixes and all those other little things which take a huge chunk of time but which nobody ever really notices. :P
salejemaster
02-03-2010, 02:41 PM
HHHYYYYPPPEEEEE, can you feel it :), might as well go to sleep till Friday :P?
BTW you guys should be thanking me for this swift new release, I mean I was asking about it only yesterday and then all of a sudden nandrew just cracks and announces the release date, coincidence I THINK NOT!
jk jk :P
Speusippus
02-03-2010, 10:17 PM
I'm really curious to know what the two new races are going to be! The way it is, there's one race corresponding to each of the five main stats (that I can think of without going into the game to look)--Attack value, hit points, mana points, healing potions, and mana potions. What else could there be? Perhaps a race that turns glyphs into money? That seems like it would be really hard to balance. A race that has some kind of racial power that you activate by consuming a glyph, maybe? What kind of powers could they be?
What could it be? What could it be?
Speusippus
02-03-2010, 10:17 PM
I see on your screenshot that you are level 9 when attacking him it is probably a better idea to start attacking him when you are level 8 or lower but have more potions and resources, try to save the fireball spell for him kuz he has high damage but low hp and has no physical or magic damage reduction
Meat monster is low damange high hp
The Dash
02-03-2010, 10:33 PM
Thanks for all of the idea throwarounds -- it's kinda cool seeing them discussed and bandied by the community members themselves. :P
Tentatively announcing a release for Friday (or maybe Monday if I take the weekend for testing). Probably haven't been working nearly as much on this thing as I should have (full-time game proggies are also my concern!), but the release should have these at minimum:
- Expanded, gradual unlock systems to keep vets occupied for a while. ;)
- Three new classes
- Four new challenge dungeons
- Two new races
- Revamped religion system
That's aside from graphical changes, interface overhauls, bugfixes and all those other little things which take a huge chunk of time but which nobody ever really notices. :P
AND A MUTE BUTTON KTHNX =P
Seriously, dont know why but i cant stand the sound in this game, i replaced all the sound files with blanks so i could listen to my own music while playing. So a simple sound on/off at the game start would be hugely appreciated
Nandrew
02-03-2010, 10:38 PM
Yeah, don't worry, the mute button is definitely going in! I understand that people want to be more stealthy at work too ... I feel like a bit of an accessory to a crime there, but what the hey? :P
mtarini
02-03-2010, 11:27 PM
I like this little game so much I've got to elaborate a bit on it.
Here it is:
I think DD is a META-roguelike.
DD is to a roguelike as a roguelike is to War of Warcraft.
DD : roguelike :: roguelike : WOW
Let me explain.
On your roguelike game, you see little plain icons (or ascii letters) on the screen and, in your fantasy, you imagine... being in the dark dungeon where you face hideous Yetis and aggressive Rust monsters and you find enhanced stylish elven armors glowing with magic power. The graphics is up to you.
In DD, you collect a plain attack +10% bonus and what you imagine is... playing a roguelike game and finding a "Well-balanced [+13 speed] Holy Katana [+10 str] [+7 AC] [+15 damage against zombies] [uses both hands]" as a replacement of your previously used combo of "Round Steel Buckler of Fire [190 Resistance] [+20 protection from flames] [-5 attack speed]" and "Enhanced Heavy [+5 damage] Cutter [armour pierce +5] [bonus against shields]", for a net gain in your overall *average* killing factor of about the said ten percent.
coendou
03-03-2010, 12:54 AM
Meat monster is low damange high hp
he was talking aequitas ^^
Nandrew
03-03-2010, 01:52 AM
I like this little game so much I've got to elaborate a bit on it.
Here it is:
I think DD is a META-roguelike.
DD is to a roguelike as a roguelike is to War of Warcraft.
DD : roguelike :: roguelike : WOW
Let me explain.
On your roguelike game, you see little plain icons (or ascii letters) on the screen and, in your fantasy, you imagine... being in the dark dungeon where you face hideous Yetis and aggressive Rust monsters and you find enhanced stylish elven armors glowing with magic power. The graphics is up to you.
In DD, you collect a plain attack +10% bonus and what you imagine is... playing a roguelike game and finding a "Well-balanced [+13 speed] Holy Katana [+10 str] [+7 AC] [+15 damage against zombies] [uses both hands]" as a replacement of your previously used combo of "Round Steel Buckler of Fire [190 Resistance] [+20 protection from flames] [-5 attack speed]" and "Enhanced Heavy [+5 damage] Cutter [armour pierce +5] [bonus against shields]", for a net gain in your overall *average* killing factor of about the said ten percent.
Holy crap, you just blew my mind right there!
dislekcia
03-03-2010, 01:59 AM
@mtarini: That's a very unique and cool perspective on the game, thanks :)
Nandrew's been given this week to push on DD full time, so he'd better deliver results... From the discussion just now, there are some really cool things coming that will change things up for experienced players quite a lot.
BlackShipsFillt
03-03-2010, 07:31 AM
Also, changing the colours of the monsters would leave to a confusing looking dungeon, with too much going on. Right now every monster and glyph is pretty much instantly recognisable due to the colour of it, if you have 9 x variations it would be really confusing!
Remember rare and special enemies in Diablo? It doesn't have to be confusing if it is done right. I agree though that 9X variations is way too much. Also there is a roll over with stats anyway, in case people didn't notice the colour. Plus there could be special rewards... so maybe like mini-bosses, perhaps around level 4-7 with little story elements.
Can't wait for the new version man! Sounds like its going to be awesome!
salejemaster
04-03-2010, 03:13 PM
one more day remains if all goes well, fingers crossed :)
Evil_Toaster
04-03-2010, 03:49 PM
Indeed, Nandrew would probably not enjoy being savagely eaten by an enraged green seal thing.
Chainsaw
04-03-2010, 04:22 PM
This just in! v0.5 will have DRM and require a subscription fee!
And you know what? I would pay for it.
salejemaster
04-03-2010, 09:08 PM
me too, but only if I could buy it on Steam lololo
EDIT: nandrew states on his twitter that DD will be coming in the evening of this holiest of days (GMT)
Fengol
05-03-2010, 02:54 PM
I demand a video teaser of the newest release! Come on guys, get your screencapture and free chiptunes (http://8bitcollective.com/) together
salejemaster
05-03-2010, 03:03 PM
we need a teaser trailer of a guy wrestling a goat ^^
dislekcia
05-03-2010, 03:26 PM
I'm going to check to see if it's cool to lob the new menu screen at you guys... So many question marks!
salejemaster
05-03-2010, 03:51 PM
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q161/GG-girl_1/GreenThing.gif
Fengol
05-03-2010, 04:04 PM
salejemaster, I can't explain why; but that's the creepest thing I've seen in a while. And somehow reminds me of Spirited Away,, the masked man
**Edit** Just found out it's a Bunchie...
salejemaster
05-03-2010, 05:00 PM
this just in, the bunchie will be a secret boss monster in DD xD
Nandrew
05-03-2010, 05:01 PM
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9526/screen0051.jpg
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/715/screen0052.jpg
salejemaster
05-03-2010, 05:05 PM
:o *fap fap fap*
ALSO, here is a suggestion for all of you, why not go here http://db.tigsource.com/games/desktop-dungeon and rate your favorite game ^^
coendou
05-03-2010, 08:39 PM
i just got an account there to rate it =p. 0.2 extra points by me ^^
EDIT: all go vote, a few votes and the game will be in top 3 :p
salejemaster
05-03-2010, 08:48 PM
i just got an account there to rate it =p. 0.2 extra points by me ^^
thats the spirit lets try and maintain a grade of at least 4 :D
Nandrew
05-03-2010, 09:47 PM
It's here! It's here! v0.05 is here! OMG! (http://forums.tidemedia.co.za/nag/showthread.php?t=13014)
... I'm off to take a well-deserved nap. Here's hoping that it doesn't break / blow up / stuff.
coendou
05-03-2010, 10:26 PM
sweet man you totally did it, you did what you promised, i got quite a few new hours of ganking dungeons ahead. LOVE IT ALREADY!!! ^^
Miktar
05-03-2010, 10:31 PM
BOOM! DOWNLOADING NAOW!
salejemaster
05-03-2010, 10:37 PM
time to pwn some goats!
When a place my old savefile from 004 when starting game a get this
___________________________________________
ERROR in
action number 1
of Create Event
for object SelectWatch:
Error reading real.
But when i click ignore the game works just fine
Nandrew
06-03-2010, 12:41 AM
Just found out that the in-game high score checker still points to the old list, but is sending to the new one. D'oh. Made a quiet update which can be downloaded if it bothers ppl. :P
(--EDIT--) Aaaand a problem with the Glowing Guardian, which should also now be fixed (--END--)
salejemaster: let me know if that is a recurring problem. Haven't heard it from anyone else yet.
Speusippus
06-03-2010, 01:16 AM
It looks to me as though poison is having no effect.
I'm playing in the snake pit with a human fighter.
It may be relevant that I haven't actually unlocked snakes yet.
In any case, I get bitten by snakes, and it says "poisoned", but I'm not in fact poisoned.
And no, it's not just that I gained a level and so got my health back. :)
Squid
06-03-2010, 01:30 AM
Yeeeeeeeah! New version!
I'll play it in the morning.
[EDIT]
FUUUUUUCK! I accidentally just deleted my save files from the last version. "Yeah! New version, don't need this old one anymore *SHIFT DELETE*"
Chippit
06-03-2010, 01:31 AM
I see you added ninja keyboard shortcuts for spells. Thanks!
Space Butler
06-03-2010, 01:43 AM
First of all let me thank you for making a wonderful game.
I've been plaing the new version for a while now but I've ran into some bugs...
First I have the same problem as salejemaster. It worked perfectly to load my old profile the first time but when I restarted the game I get the same error message.
I've tried creating a new profile from a clean installation but if I exit and start it up again I run into it again.
Another nasty bug I've encountered was when I cleared the crypt with the special class that you unlock by clearing the library with the warlord.
I got the message that I've unlocked a new race after which I comitted suicide (don't judge me >_<). When I got back to the main menu I still couldn't select the new race. If I hoover over the crypt button it says that 0/18 classes even though It says that I have cleared it with the special class...
Ive also run in to the Glowing Guardian bug, thats when I decided to come here and report the bugs to you. Guess I'll try and get the new version a spin.
Tell me if you need more info from me.
Keep up the good work Nandrew!
[Edit] Oh, and I got a vampire to 0 HP, I could keep on hitting it but it wouldn't take any damage or die. Can't remember any more details though...
Miktar
06-03-2010, 01:52 AM
http://clip2net.com/clip/m6496/1267833015-clip-7kb.png
For the first time, I finished a dungeon. Had Pactmaker early on, and killed Aeq at the end. Booyah.
Chippit
06-03-2010, 01:58 AM
[Edit] Oh, and I got a vampire to 0 HP, I could keep on hitting it but it wouldn't take any damage or die. Can't remember any more details though...
I had one on 0hp too, but it died on the very next hit. O_o
Space Butler
06-03-2010, 02:04 AM
I had one on 0hp too, but it died on the very next hit. O_o
Now that I think about it... I beleve that I was playing an assasin and the vampire was at a lower level than me, how i got it to 0HP in the first place however, if that is the case it's an even bigger mystery
Delvin
06-03-2010, 02:08 AM
Awesome.
Will comment later in more detail. One quick note for now: The mouseover for health regeneration seems to display 1 per uncovered tile at all levels, when it should be multiplied by the level.
dislekcia
06-03-2010, 03:12 AM
It looks to me as though poison is having no effect.
I'm playing in the snake pit with a human fighter.
It may be relevant that I haven't actually unlocked snakes yet.
In any case, I get bitten by snakes, and it says "poisoned", but I'm not in fact poisoned.
And no, it's not just that I gained a level and so got my health back. :)
I just tested and poison definitely works in the scenario you just described: Hadn't unlocked snakes, hit the snake pit and couldn't regen health when poisoned... Are you sure you weren't worshipping a god that gave you poison immunity?
I see you added ninja keyboard shortcuts for spells. Thanks!
Yeah, sorry for not realising the interface needed to be updated with numbers on the spell slots. Interface is going to be a big focus next version...
Awesome.
Will comment later in more detail. One quick note for now: The mouseover for health regeneration seems to display 1 per uncovered tile at all levels, when it should be multiplied by the level.
Well spotted, will pass that on.
Now that I think about it... I beleve that I was playing an assasin and the vampire was at a lower level than me, how i got it to 0HP in the first place however, if that is the case it's an even bigger mystery
I haven't been able to reproduce having a vampire on 0 health. Will try again with the assassin tomorrow.
fooble
06-03-2010, 03:12 AM
I'm impressed you actually released the new version when you said you would.
I'm having the problem with 0 health vampires too. I was playing as assassin at the time. I know it happened against one lower than my level, so it might have something to do with the assassin's instant kill ability. Also, if I let the vampires regenerate back to full health then I was able to kill them.
salejemaster
06-03-2010, 03:31 AM
First of all let me thank you for making a wonderful game.
First I have the same problem as salejemaster. It worked perfectly to load my old profile the first time but when I restarted the game I get the same error message.
I've tried creating a new profile from a clean installation but if I exit and start it up again I run into it again.
This is the exact thing that happens to me but when i click ignore i can play normaly so I guess its not really a top priority bug
Lekon
06-03-2010, 03:41 AM
First off: Love the game. Talked with Nandrew on Twitter a few times, but had to post in here as well. I freaking love the new hidden classes, especially one of the ones on the faaaaaar right side. Great idea with those!
I to had the assassin bug in the Crypt. Vampires just won't die unless I first stab them below their normal max HP, then wander off until they are fully healed, then kill them again. Seems a bug between assassination of lower level enemies, and that life drain they do to go over regular max health.
Seems the leaderboard is slim, Only me and one other person up. Everyone too busy unlocking to play some ranked?
Miktar
06-03-2010, 03:48 AM
I think I just suck that much :P I've only beaten it with one class.
Lekon
06-03-2010, 04:02 AM
You don't suck! I had that same problem. I beat it with Thief first, and had a hell of a time getting anywhere further. Once I was finally able to beat it with a second class, the game started to "click" and I started learnign how to use unexplored tiles, potions, etc. I still lose a lot, but after the second "win" it really fell into place.
Also, As you beat it, you'll unlock more items to buy/use, which makes the game easier even as it becomes more complex. More chances/ways to win.
Speusippus
06-03-2010, 04:03 AM
I just tested and poison definitely works in the scenario you just described: Hadn't unlocked snakes, hit the snake pit and couldn't regen health when poisoned... Are you sure you weren't worshipping a god that gave you poison immunity?
I bet that's it--I didn't even know there was poison immunity from a god in the game.
Almost
06-03-2010, 04:25 AM
My thoughts on v0.5
While i like most of the new art, I dislike the new player art because its head is big and a weird color. [Edit, I suppose I can just change any art that I don't like, so this isn't much of an issue]
I dislike the unknowing of a God's retribution since they have potential to be instant lose. So far I've denounced 5 gods just to see what happens; two of them had somewhat minor consequences, one actually removed the negative effects he had placed on me earlier, and two of them made me instantly lose. It's harsh. I'm fine with not knowing exactly what the effects are, but they should all be of a similar significance; if one of them is something like lose all coins having another one be instant death is uncool.
Also, the fact that if you have the right stuff you might be able to survive this doom causing yet you have no idea of what the stuff is that you need, extra annoying. (survive death might save you, but then again, it might not)
Is that a bonus for speed that I see? If so I dislike this. This game is, to me at least, a casual puzzle that I can simply minimize at will and resume later if something comes up. Perhaps base it on number of steps taken / number of actions made to still give a bonus for attacking the boss quickly? Or make it seperate from the score; have a "fastest wins" highscore table that is unrelated to the "best score" table.
It would be nice if weaken said in it's description that it was permanent, since I assumed that it would be temporary.
Moving onto a shop by attacking an enemy adjacent to it should not bring up the shop dialog.
Next hit estimate: DEATH when casting a fireball is unnecessarily intimidating. I'd rather not see the next hit estimate when casting magic.
Next hit estimate: POISON when I have poison immunity is similarly annoying.
Should the "Boss Killed" bonus not be 2500 x #bosses?
In the main screen, I think the unlockables whose requirements you have not yet unlocked should not display these requirements. (The third row of unit types say things like "beat normal mode with a berserker to unlock this", even though berserker is still listed as ??? for me. (Similarly "beat the factory challenge" when that mode is still unknown to me.)
The game seems slow when you are pointing the mouse at a wall; my guess is that it is exhaustively pathfinding and not realizing that walls are unreachable until it has checked everything. If this is the case, it would be more efficient to have an initial test of whether or not the square is a wall and, if it's a wall, ignore it. (Just like the game doesn't bother pathfinding to unexplored squares, don't bother pathfinding to walls.)
Lekon
06-03-2010, 05:12 AM
For Dis: I noticed that the Glittery God gave poison immunity, and the Bronzeshield one gave death gaze immunity. I had a real lucky break in getting bronzeshield with the transmuter on a snake run just now. Made medusa a breeze.
Almost, you've got some good points. I wish I would have known about the weaken, or Dracul's little "haha, you die now" payback. The Slowness thing... maybe its another program interfering? Have you updated your vid card drivers? I haven't had any slowdown at all with the game, but I have had some problems with game-maker games in the past before I got some recent Nvidia drivers (Just DONT get the latest ones, they were yanked for causing Fan problems.)
Miktar
06-03-2010, 06:09 AM
Discovering the negative elements of fealty to a God is half the fun. If you don't like 'not knowing', I think you're being too serious with the game.
Lekon
06-03-2010, 06:52 AM
Discovering the negative elements of fealty to a God is half the fun. If you don't like 'not knowing', I think you're being too serious with the game.
Hmm... "Let your imminent death be a lesson to you?"
Tyroie
06-03-2010, 09:12 AM
Yay, all the new stuff makes me happy! It's just what I wanted honestly. :)
I think I may have just found a bug -
I beat the Crypt with both the Priest and the new far-right & center class. However it still says I've completed the crypt with 1/18 classes. Strangely enough, when I select these two classes for the crypt it says, "You have already completed this dungeon with the selected class." My max gold is still only 75.
mckertis
06-03-2010, 02:10 PM
The "particle" effects from uncovering tiles is mildly annoying and seriously distracting. It actually takes a few milliseconds now for my brain to register just what i picked up, and was there even anything at all.
Also, mouse hover info over enemies should be moved a little to the side.
The Dash
06-03-2010, 02:24 PM
The "particle" effects from uncovering tiles is mildly annoying and seriously distracting. It actually takes a few milliseconds now for my brain to register just what i picked up, and was there even anything at all.
Also, mouse hover info over enemies should be moved a little to the side.
also i play in full screen and the mouse seems HUGE. Game also slows down sometimes for no reason. Doesn't make it unplayable, just enough to be irritating. Might actually be my laptop
I'm actually not liking this as much as i should. Its getting on my nerves. Nandrew can you please release the original sprites as a tile set?
Well done on thread views jumping by +-2500 in a few hours by the way 0.o
EDIT:
Found a bug.
Equip the fire spell. Click on it to cast, but keep the mouse button pressed. Hover mouse over an enemy (any enemy, you can be level 10 and it can be level 1) and release the mouse button. It sets your health to -999 and you die =/
salejemaster
06-03-2010, 02:36 PM
YEEEEHHAAAA, beat the factory and this was actually the first time ever that I beat the meat monster :))))
Nferno
06-03-2010, 03:30 PM
Is it just me, or do 'Meat Men' smile now? :D
New version is awesome. Dig the fact that it shows you your next hit estimate, it's helpful when you're not really paying much attention or are a click whore.
Loving it so far.
Speusippus
06-03-2010, 03:31 PM
Mouseover on Lord Gob shows his resistances as 20%, but I think they're actually 60%.
salejemaster
06-03-2010, 03:38 PM
DD i s now the number 2 game in TIGdb right beneath Cave Story :), more votes people, we need moar :D http://db.tigsource.com/games/desktop-dungeon
iceblademush
06-03-2010, 04:54 PM
The Focus item doesnt seem to work. After I buy it i still have 3 slots.
Graphics:
Is there a restriction on tile size? I think most people play in full screen, i would like to make a 32x32 tileset or even 48x48. Currently it uses 20x20 tiles. Let see some more tilesets! :)
The Dash
06-03-2010, 06:14 PM
The Focus item doesnt seem to work. After I buy it i still have 3 slots.
Tsk tsk Nandrew, i still get this shop when i'm a wizard, but it only offers 4 slots, i bought it anyways just to try crash the game aaaand....it doesn't :P
Nandrew
06-03-2010, 08:48 PM
Wow, there's quite a bit of feedback to look through here!
Thanks for the patience and input regarding bugs ... there's just never enough time to test all of this stuff, and I'm just kinda glad that games aren't COMPLETELY unplayable in the process. :P
I'm going to try release a 0.051 patch as soon as possible to address more critical crash bugs and gameplay faults, so keep that feedback coming. Other feedback will be noted and addressed at a later stage. It's particularly interesting to see a debate about the role of gods and the deliberate "ambiguity" of them now.
Almost
06-03-2010, 08:57 PM
Is the speed bonus meant to be this large?
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4078/speedbonus.png
Every other bonus kind of pales in comparison.
EDIT: Can anybody verify that the pactmaker does anything after you choose to follow it? I won a game while following it and it still refuses to acknowledge me. And yet somehow it's my favourite of the gods so far.
mckertis
06-03-2010, 09:16 PM
It's particularly interesting to see a debate about the role of gods and the deliberate "ambiguity" of them now.
To me it seems more interesting to learn why does the "god panel" takes up such a large amount of screen space, since 99% of time its just three words there.
Lekon
06-03-2010, 09:19 PM
Is the speed bonus meant to be this large?
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4078/speedbonus.png
Every other bonus kind of pales in comparison.
EDIT: Can anybody verify that the pactmaker does anything after you choose to follow it? I won a game while following it and it still refuses to acknowledge me. And yet somehow it's my favourite of the gods so far.
Okay, from what I can tell, Pact maker gives you some new abilities from other classes. Just *what* abilities, I don't know, but I noticed that when I took him on a wizard, all of a sudden I was getting extra EXP per kill, just like a fighter would.
Speusippus
06-03-2010, 09:23 PM
I'd like to see a "low quality graphics" option for slower systems. With 0.4, I couldn't tell a difference in performance between my desktop and my laptop. But with 0.5, my desktop plays perfectly smoothly, but on my laptop, everything happens so slowly as to be almost unplayable.
It's unfortunate; the laptop's by no means new and wasn't high-end even when it was new, but it is a little surprising that this game would take such a noticeable performance hit on any machine built in the last couple of years.
(There really ought to be an ASCII graphics option, you know... ;) )
Nandrew
06-03-2010, 09:24 PM
@mckertis:
For now, it's the most convenient and least obtrusive way to convey god messages. The panel is sized that way so that it can potentially carry the "biggest" messages when they come around. Should I just put god notifications into popout messages / dialog boxes? Well, to be honest, I don't think that's a good idea at all: in early testing, having a god-heavy game would make for very annoying interruptions on a very frequent basis, breaking the game's flow horribly.
The way I see it, that space has been freed up ever since the pop-out messages have been incorporated, and I think that it'll bother players far less than some of the alternatives I've tried.
@Speusippus:
Ack! I'm rather bewildered by this news too. I've developed and tested this game on an intel-graphics laptop which is about 4 years old now ... and it was a mediocre machine even when it came out. I'll definitely try optimising some things, though, I'm startled to hear about these performance hits. :P
dislekcia
06-03-2010, 09:46 PM
Nandrew's bug-squashing like you can't believe - prioritised list and everything... Just tracked down the vamp issue.
It would help if anyone with data-tracking issues - errors on loading profiles or configs, misreported dungeon completion stats - would make sure they're not running the game directly out of the zipfile. We've had that happen before ;)
iceblademush
06-03-2010, 09:51 PM
My laptop also experiences slow down in full screen mode, appears to be the mouse cursor???
dislekcia
06-03-2010, 09:52 PM
Is the speed bonus meant to be this large?
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4078/speedbonus.png
Every other bonus kind of pales in comparison.
Holy crap, that's fast!
Yeah it's a big amount compared to other bonuses, but I know Nandrew had much larger plans for revamping the score system this version that he didn't get time to do. I know the idea was to up scores in general to compete with the Wizard runs on the previous version.
Still amazed at 8:20... Wow. I haven't been pushing for speed yet, but I only manage to hit 12 minutes if I'm testing really fast.
dislekcia
06-03-2010, 09:56 PM
My laptop also experiences slow down in full screen mode, appears to be the mouse cursor???
No, it's not the cursor, that's a symptom you're seeing due to the game using a sprite cursor instead of the windows cursor which is independent of framerate.
We're looking into what could be slowing the game down and have some things to test out this side. It would be helpful if you could document when the slowdown seems to happen the most: Is it worst when new blocks are revealed, when fighting, etc.
Remember, it's entirely possible that the game was just as slow before on your specific hardware (GM can be rather unforgiving that way on certain rigs - my main dev PC runs every GM game at 10fps for no reason whatsoever) but that the slowdown is visible now because there are animations that are visibly affected, instead of what was previously a relatively static screen.
Space Butler
06-03-2010, 10:03 PM
It would help if anyone with data-tracking issues - errors on loading profiles or configs, misreported dungeon completion stats - would make sure they're not running the game directly out of the zipfile. We've had that happen before ;)
I've had both problems and I'm not running it from the zipfile.
The loading of profile it might be a win 7 issue, but if that is the case I'd think more people would be having the tame problem... Besides 0.04 worked like a charm for me.
For the completion stats bug I'd look at ether the victory code for special class characters or in the save/loading of profiles. Thats the impression I'm getting atleast...
Hope this helps.
Nandrew
06-03-2010, 10:22 PM
For the completion stats bug I'd look at ether the victory code for special class characters or in the save/loading of profiles. Thats the impression I'm getting atleast...
Hope this helps.
You hit the nail on the head, actually. Special classes didn't register properly, as opposed to other classes. That problem has now been solved. ;)
Still working through some other bugs before I release the revision ...
Lekon
06-03-2010, 10:23 PM
dislekcia... I usually hate to ask for tips like this. But dude. Please. Any suggestions on Warlord Vs Library? It has been smashing my face into the pavement badly. I just can't get through both bosses. Been trying an Elf Warlord to get more mana for more sidesteps, but yeesh, still not enough.
Space Butler
06-03-2010, 10:33 PM
Just found out the problem with the loading bug
in DD.dat mine read:
1,0000
Space Butler
default
I tried to remove the ",0000" and it loaded without incident
dislekcia
06-03-2010, 11:20 PM
dislekcia... I usually hate to ask for tips like this. But dude. Please. Any suggestions on Warlord Vs Library? It has been smashing my face into the pavement badly. I just can't get through both bosses. Been trying an Elf Warlord to get more mana for more sidesteps, but yeesh, still not enough.
I just had to clear the library with a Warlord for testing purposes. I don't think Nandrew would like me giving advice per se (we sort of want players to help each other out), but I'd suggest re-thinking your race selection there, there's definitely a better fit available. You don't need more mana to maximise Cydstepp, in fact that's probably the least effective race bonus: You'd have to convert 5 glyphs to get an extra cast, which could only happen really late in a dungeon. Using an expensive glyph is more a matter of timing and not over exploring (i.e. "wasting" mana regen) than anything else.
Hope that helps! When you do clear the dungeon, why not write up what worked and what didn't?
mckertis
06-03-2010, 11:30 PM
Should I just put god notifications into popout messages / dialog boxes?
Since most of the messages are just flavour - i'd suggest figuring out shorter messages, and using a long thing box at the top of the screen, for example. Maybe one tile high. And then all the stats could be stacked more vertically from top to bottom, to free some width for the dungeon. Something like that.
Tyroie
07-03-2010, 12:30 AM
Lekon - I actually beat the Library with an elven warlord, but only because I was absolutely lucky and found a heal glyph. That made it just click, since the race bonus gave just enough extra mana to cast a heal or two along with sidestep.
So fighting the bosses went something similar to this:
- Hit the boss
- Heal up the small amount of extra health needed to get a 2nd attack (leave enough mana for sidestep, so use a healing potion here if you need to)
- Now you're nearly dead, but attack again thanks to a pre-cast sidestep
- Cast sidestep and attack again
- Run over to one-shot a different monster, level off of it and regain health and mana, then attack the boss again with the same process
- And of course use one mana potion per attack when you need the extra push.
Though this exact same thing might work as a dwarf too, assuming it gives enough health to get 2 attacks in before sidestepping... Not sure.
Almost
07-03-2010, 12:36 AM
Still amazed at 8:20... Wow. I haven't been pushing for speed yet, but I only manage to hit 12 minutes if I'm testing really fast.
Heh
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5340/biggerspeedbonus.png
I got lucky. Picked up a CYDSTEPP glyph early and had Gharbad as a boss, who is easy to beat with death protection. Cydstepp and rogue's first strike means that I just have to find the highest level enemy that I can kill in three hits (or 2 if it has first strike), which can be determined quite quickly. I had the Pactmaker as my deity, which I guess makes me level up faster.
Ok, I'm done trying for minimal time now.
Nandrew
07-03-2010, 01:10 AM
Version 0.051 is now live, and fixes some of the more critical errors that people have been encountering. It also makes some other (minor) changes, and ups score values (ever-so-slightly) for some of the non-time-related criteria.
dislekcia
07-03-2010, 01:17 AM
Lekon - I actually beat the Library with an elven warlord, but only because I was absolutely lucky and found a heal glyph. That made it just click, since the race bonus gave just enough extra mana to cast a heal or two along with sidestep.
So fighting the bosses went something similar to this:
- Hit the boss
- Heal up the small amount of extra health needed to get a 2nd attack (leave enough mana for sidestep, so use a healing potion here if you need to)
- Now you're nearly dead, but attack again thanks to a pre-cast sidestep
- Cast sidestep and attack again
- Run over to one-shot a different monster, level off of it and regain health and mana, then attack the boss again with the same process
- And of course use one mana potion per attack when you need the extra push.
Though this exact same thing might work as a dwarf too, assuming it gives enough health to get 2 attacks in before sidestepping... Not sure.
We call the bolded technique "level buffering" :) +10 points for letting me talk about it officially!
FYI, there's a way you can get an extra attack in with the method you posted above ;)
I got lucky. Picked up a CYDSTEPP glyph early and had Gharbad as a boss, who is easy to beat with death protection. Cydstepp and rogue's first strike means that I just have to find the highest level enemy that I can kill in three hits (or 2 if it has first strike), which can be determined quite quickly. I had the Pactmaker as my deity, which I guess makes me level up faster.
Ok, I'm done trying for minimal time now.
I'm even more dumbstruck... 6:26? I'd shake your hand if I could, sir. It just took me 30 minutes to clear the Factory with the Half-Dragon (but on the up side I think I found a new favorite class).
Hi all,
I tend to go unnoticed over Internet, but really had to register and contribute what I can about this awesome game.
I downloaded three weeks ago 0.04 and it completely hooked me, I did not stop until clearing it with the 12 classes. and three friends of me have joined the dungeon slaying.
You really have found something really special here, the game does 'click', and despite your conservative version number, the core gameplay feels really polished (except the new vampires :) ).
Overall like the changes to the existing classes, they feel better now. The UI changes felt a bit strange at the beginning but the more I play the more I appreciate the simple tells from the popup. I am only not so convinced about the space devoted to deity messages, but that is probably because I am still trying to figure out the new system.
About bug reports from this version, here is what I have found
- The ignorable "Error reading real" at startup (with a new 0.05 installation, no moved file from previous version).
- Unliving vampires with 0 hp.
- Tooltip errors with a Priest against Wraiths higher level than me. I am not sure if I had too first strike, as I think it said DEATH when I was actually going to 1 shot them with the sweet 100% dmg bonus.
- Interface error with Teleport Glyph: If used when there is another glyph in the ground, it will still appear as that after porting out, and it will be pickable (not really a grave error, but ...)
- When entering a temple / shop and discovering at the same time the boss, only the boss message is shown. You have to exit and reenter the tile for the element to be accessible (again, minor detail).
Again, thanks for this gem Nandrew! And please, keep up with the great work :)
dislekcia
07-03-2010, 01:59 AM
Hi all,
I tend to go unnoticed over Internet, but really had to register and contribute what I can about this awesome game.
I downloaded three weeks ago 0.04 and it completely hooked me, I did not stop until clearing it with the 12 classes. and three friends of me have joined the dungeon slaying.
You really have found something really special here, the game does 'click', and despite your conservative version number, the core gameplay feels really polished (except the new vampires :) ).
Overall like the changes to the existing classes, they feel better now. The UI changes felt a bit strange at the beginning but the more I play the more I appreciate the simple tells from the popup. I am only not so convinced about the space devoted to deity messages, but that is probably because I am still trying to figure out the new system.
About bug reports from this version, here is what I have found
- The ignorable "Error reading real" at startup (with a new 0.05 installation, no moved file from previous version).
- Unliving vampires with 0 hp.
- Tooltip errors with a Priest against Wraiths higher level than me. I am not sure if I had too first strike, as I think it said DEATH when I was actually going to 1 shot them with the sweet 100% dmg bonus.
- Interface error with Teleport Glyph: If used when there is another glyph in the ground, it will still appear as that after porting out, and it will be pickable (not really a grave error, but ...)
- When entering a temple / shop and discovering at the same time the boss, only the boss message is shown. You have to exit and reenter the tile for the element to be accessible (again, minor detail).
Again, thanks for this gem Nandrew! And please, keep up with the great work :)
Hi Foly, thanks for the feedback!
Nandrew's just uploaded a new version of 0.05 with many squished bugs (including the Error reading real and eternal vampires, among a whole bunch of others) and some small interface tweaks (like explicitly mentioning the keyboard shortcuts for spells).
Thanks for the totally novel teleporting while on a glyph bug, you get credit for being the first to discover it :) We'll get on that as soon as we can.
Nandrew's known for really neat gameplay experiences (search for his other games on this forum and have a look) but DD really is something special, even for him ;) We're viewing this freeware version as a place to test ideas to learn what works best and what doesn't, before doing something even cooler with the game. But that's still a while off, in the meantime: Expect more interface changes, we've got some cool ideas!
Chippit
07-03-2010, 02:17 AM
We call the bolded technique "level buffering" :) +10 points for letting me talk about it officially!
I thought that's what that new race was for. :P
dislekcia
07-03-2010, 02:26 AM
I thought that's what that new race was for. :P
Actually that's from Nandrew going "Batman Batman Batman Batman!" all the way through a 2 hour car trip. He finally played Arkham Asylum.
salejemaster
07-03-2010, 02:45 AM
Hi Foly, thanks for the feedback!
We're viewing this freeware version as a place to test ideas to learn what works best and what doesn't, before doing something even cooler with the game.
I am intrigued :)
OOOMMMFFFFGGGG I have to tell someone this :), so im playing with a rogue in the library defeated the first boss and the dragon was left, I was worshiping Tikki Tokki or whatever he is called, and a had a chance to dodge 32%, now I wasted all my pots mana and hp and I had 10 mana just to cast sydestep once, the dragon does 75 dmg and i have a max hp od 72 so its one hit KO.....AND I GOT 4 ****ING DODGES IN A ROW I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT, there was just one hit left and the thingy from the glyph activates and the bloddy dragon drops dead...ah it was so good
what should we learn from this: Gods really do exist :)))
Almost
07-03-2010, 06:25 AM
Huh, I just found a bug.
You can click on Altars that you cannot see by blindly clicking in the black. You can also then agree to follow them.
The Dash
07-03-2010, 08:54 AM
Holy crap, that's fast!
Yeah it's a big amount compared to other bonuses, but I know Nandrew had much larger plans for revamping the score system this version that he didn't get time to do. I know the idea was to up scores in general to compete with the Wizard runs on the previous version.
Still amazed at 8:20... Wow. I haven't been pushing for speed yet, but I only manage to hit 12 minutes if I'm testing really fast.
http://i50.tinypic.com/5ml1za.jpg
cough cough*
I dont even play for speed, but my average run is 5 minutes for a undoable dungeon and maximum of 15 for a completed run
Lekon
07-03-2010, 10:02 AM
Huh, I just found a bug.
You can click on Altars that you cannot see by blindly clicking in the black. You can also then agree to follow them.
I think that's working as intended. They call it "Blind Faith"
(Punny!)
BlackShipsFillt
07-03-2010, 12:18 PM
Okay ... this was version 0.05 but I wanted to know if this was a bug
http://www.blackshipsfillthesky.com/images/Desktop Dungeons.png
I got negative experience (I had the Glowing hand, mana burn and prot from killing blow when it happened)
dislekcia
07-03-2010, 12:28 PM
I got negative experience (I had the Glowing hand, mana burn and prot from killing blow when it happened)
Whoa, what did you kill? I'm assuming you leveled up from 1 to 2 with the killing blow?
ortoslon
07-03-2010, 02:41 PM
i enjoy the game greatly but i dislike how most of the game is locked at the start. i feel like i have to go through a worse game to play a better game. also i dislike how gold is transferred between games because it encourages grinding for gold.
coendou
07-03-2010, 04:42 PM
that's one of the mean things about the game, unlockables, if everything was unlocked right away, only half the people that now do play it, would play it ^^
would be a lot less attractive to me anyways ^^
Lekon
07-03-2010, 05:46 PM
i enjoy the game greatly but i dislike how most of the game is locked at the start. i feel like i have to go through a worse game to play a better game. also i dislike how gold is transferred between games because it encourages grinding for gold.
I don't see it as grinding for gold at all. One "Run" with the Gobbo and Tinker and bam you're almost always at full. (Ditto if you just take glitterboy as your god.) I see it more as the game saying "Okay, okay, I've been mean to you, here's a little better chance to win."
Plus, some of the "Oh dear god" items that unlocked near the end of .04 (The Amulet of YouKnowWhoDer, the Orb of OhmigodImightAscend!" (names changed to fit more with DD style) Were 80-90 gold.
Course, they tended to do things that were amazing, but still.
Lekon
07-03-2010, 09:32 PM
I <3 the Vamp but I will have to admit... either I'm really good with him, or he's a bit overpowered. :)
http://i.imgur.com/4vM5c.jpg
Edit: I am going to stop trying for speed now.
http://i.imgur.com/LMgyk.jpg
Feynman
08-03-2010, 12:45 AM
Okay, so I had to register just to post about how much I love this game! I played the hell out of v.4 and the addiction continues in the latest release. The new challenge levels are great, especially the unlock requirements... figuring out how to clear the Factory with a Wizard, or the Crypts with an Assassin (no poison glyph is rough) was great fun.
I particularly like the way you set up the unlocking structure of the game. The game has very simple rules, but each class you have access to forces you to use those rules just a liiiitle bit differently, and by the time you've unlocked everything, you really know every little facet of the game. It's a great way to subtly encourage players to step up their game without unnecessary tutorials or hand-holding.
As for the Vampire... yeah, might be just a bit too powerful.
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee7/Feynman0451/deskdunvamp.jpg
About the only way you can die is if you get a really, really bad setup at the start. Once you have a couple levels under your belt and a few glyph conversions, you're pretty much unstoppable. And if you manage to find an altar to Dracul early on, it gets insane. I had one game where I reached 75% life steal.
Lekon
08-03-2010, 01:08 AM
Okay, so I had to register just to post about how much I love this game!
As for the Vampire... yeah, might be just a bit too powerful.
About the only way you can die is if you get a really, really bad setup at the start. Once you have a couple levels under your belt and a few glyph conversions, you're pretty much unstoppable. And if you manage to find an altar to Dracul early on, it gets insane. I had one game where I reached 75% life steal.
I registered for the same reason! And yeah, Vamp needs.. some sorta tweak. Dracul is interesting, but the Torauge is much nastier. He's the one that gives you an extra damage percent per kill. By the end I was hitting for 156 a shot.
dislekcia
08-03-2010, 01:44 AM
Hi Feynman, I remember your nick from the 04 score list :)
Yeah, Vampires are on the overpowered side, I've hit 3 minutes flat in testing. Was sorta hoping they wouldn't be another Elf Wizard. I'm sure they'll get evened out at some point, they're still a fun class to play, they've just got to have more interesting decisions that players need to make for them. The whole health-steal avenue has a lot of potential.
Lekon
08-03-2010, 01:59 AM
Hi Feynman, I remember your nick from the 04 score list :)
Yeah, Vampires are on the overpowered side, I've hit 3 minutes flat in testing. Was sorta hoping they wouldn't be another Elf Wizard. I'm sure they'll get evened out at some point, they're still a fun class to play, they've just got to have more interesting decisions that players need to make for them. The whole health-steal avenue has a lot of potential.
Either a tweak to them, or maybe a tweak to how they use spells (More cost maybe?) Or an enemy that targets a weakness of thiers.... how about an enemy that causes squares to go black again on the first time you meet them? A boon for adventurers, but a pain in the arse for any vamps? Squids! Squids with wooden stakes for hunting Vamps! Thinking it might work like monster vamps do now where the first time you meet them it fires off.
FINALLY UNLOCKED the Half Dragon. Good lord.
For those having trouble: Healing/Poison/Fireball, are the spells you need, any one of them helps. Main thing, Try to leave 4's and 5's alive here or there, as well as some 3's if possible. before going to take on one of the bosses, get to where you can one shot some enemies to level (Now buffering...). Hit boss, Heal/Nuke them, hit them again to go dead and re-cydestep, hit them again, then go level, repeat. I did this with Dwarf, and it was possible only once I could take a hit from the bearded one without dieing.
Also. The game laughed at me on my win. Beardboy was hiding in a corridor. Killed him. Went ya. Took a step. Next step, Shop with anti magic platemail. Oh that was just mean.
Speusippus
08-03-2010, 02:38 AM
I just beat the library level as a Warlord but I don't know how.
I beat the dragon first, no problem. Later, I had to face the bearded guy with no mana potions, with no possibility of level-buffering (beating a low level monster in the middle of the battle to level up) and with just five health potions. I was level 8, with 117 HP. 13 MP. Bearded guy does 114 damage, has if I recall 380 HP.
My damage was 65, 80 when buffed by my being below half HP.
I had just Cydstep and the glyph that grants first strike.
By my calculations I was a goner but I decided to go down fighting... ;) And somehow ended up winning. I wasn't keeping careful track, so I don't know exactly what happened.
And my question is, how could it have happened?
I can't figure out a sequence that would end up with a win for me. (I should mention the last blow would have been my death as well except for the first-strike glyph. I mention this as it may be a clue as to how I managed to win--knowing it was that close.)
Lessee... hit for 65, hit for 80, cydstepp again, hit for 80, three health potions, hit for 65, and I can't see how to win from there. I've done a total of 290 damage, and have only two health potions left, meaning I can't fill up HP enough to survive another blow. And I don't have any more MP left. No mana potions did I have. It can't work from here.
But I can't see whate else I might possibly have done.
ETA, maybe I'm wrong about how many health potions I drank. Would it take three to get from 3 HP to above 114 HP? Or would it just take 2?
Almost
08-03-2010, 03:42 AM
Dodging a killing blow doesn't work? Or maybe it's because it was a Gorgon. Anyways, I attacked a gorgon as a rogue when my health was <50% and saw a DODGE message float over my head, but I still died from that hit. Did I dodge the attack and die to the petrification?
Also, I think some classes other than the vampire have similar potential, it just hasn't been entirely realized yet. For example, I had a +300% attack bonus as a crusader once; Taurog is cool.
Competition is fun. I almost scored higher than Lekon's 3:17 score.
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2905/540newhighscore.png
In other news, I still find the bloodmage useless.
Having the red and blue particles only appear when you are actually regenerating from that tile's discovery would probably be less distracting and more informative.
The Dash
08-03-2010, 04:40 AM
Uhm, Taurog worship normally gives you mana burn, but it failed on me. Mana went purple but stayed full
I was a level 1 orc assassin in the library (with a candlestick :P)
Lekon
08-03-2010, 10:27 AM
Also, I think some classes other than the vampire have similar potential, it just hasn't been entirely realized yet. For example, I had a +300% attack bonus as a crusader once; Taurog is cool.
Competition is fun. I almost scored higher than Lekon's 3:17 score.
In other news, I still find the bloodmage useless.
.
Gotta agree, the blood mage still feels kinda useless. BludtoPowah is "slightly" less useless now, but 99% of the time, its just an edible glyph.
Also: Awesome score. And you used my favorite class! (Aside from Vamp.)
Having just unlocked and fiddled around with Half Dragon, I have to say: The Devs are nuts. In a good way. The Gorgon was kinda a changer (Monk on 'roids) The vampire was a huge change, basically changing the exploration mechanic, and the HD is... playing a game of pool with my enemies. Gotta line that shot up just right, aim and *wham* wall gone! Quite a fun class indeed.
Tyroie earlier mentioned the level buffering trick (Well, before Dys came out and called it that). Many thanks. I think that was the last bit of the late game puzzle for me to start clicking ideas into place. I was understanding short/mid game (which sounds odd for a 10-15 minute game). But didn't think of that little mechanic before.
Nandrew
08-03-2010, 03:22 PM
Thanks for the bug reports, guys. And yeah, the vamp really seems to be the new Elf Wizard in terms of mind-boggling power. :P He'll be fixed up in the next version, hopefully so that he's a well-balanced character right from early to late game.
@Speusippus: I'm burning my brain over your situation. I'm tempted to believe that there's a lot of other factors you may not have considered in your situation (especially if you've taken to worshipping gods, they can sometimes be a bit sneaky), but I'll try to figure out some definite suggestions for you if I manage to think of any. Otherwise, I'll be studying your case for the next version.
@Almost: I'll double-check on that problem. It may be that, yes, I forbid dodging a Gorgon's attack due to the idea that you can't "evade" a death gaze, but I'll have to make sure. I'll remove either the dodge message or the death when I figure it out.
Also, the Bloodmage perks ... hmm, I'll have to re-analyse. His glyph isn't the only buff, though ... he gets slightly more health from blood pools as well, and more importantly (I only mention this because it's quoted in his direct description!) players regain 15% of their TOTAL HEALTH instead of the old version's flat 1HP per level. I'm personally convinced that people could find effective uses for the revised class, but I could always tweak him again in the next version if the need truly arises.
And finally, with regards to the baubles appearing only when you're regenerating ... that should actually be the case already. If you play with a vampire, you'll notice that no particles come up at all (except when walking across blood). Poisoned characters only show blue particles, while manaburned heroes won't show even those. And the particles are even altered by the amount of regeneration you have: red practically explodes for monks!
...d'oh, just finished writing that and realised something: you mean the particles shouldn't show up when you're already at full health/mana?
@ortoslon: I get the impression that you're a Roguelike fan, and these particular game design decisions may be controversial. I'd like to try justify them in terms of the audience that I'm extending a hand to, and the unique presentation which Desktop Dungeons finds itself possessing. The unlock system isn't so much a matter of playing through a "worse" game to get to a "better" game, in my opinion, as it is an attempt to get newbie players going through a "simpler" game to a more "complex" one.
As a rule of thumb, I believe that anybody who starts Desktop Dungeons *fresh* is offered a new gameplay experience that should technically be able to stand on its own: in other words, the people who keep playing past the first four classes are the sort of people who found those classes fun enough by their own merits to pursue the game a little further. And by the time you've mastered the dungeon enough to get bored of the five or so initial monsters given to you, the game will already be providing you with more.
An unlock architecture is also far more practical here than including one in, say, Crawl. Forcing players to beat the dungeon with one hero to enable more would be horrendously unforgiving in that environment because it can take hours -- even days, in some personal cases! -- for a single run of the dungeon (one which can often result in death). Desktop Dungeons, on the other hand, can be considered over and done with in about ten minutes for a "win" scenario. This means that the game can take a far more serial approach and try to introduce players to new concepts -- and more complicated characters -- one at a time.
I feel that there's a parallel to this in existing Roguelikes anyway: in such games, new players tend to stick with recommended "beginner" characters (for Crawl, DwFi worshipping Okawura comes to mind) and will spend their early careers dying a lot in the first few levels of the dungeon, exposed to only a small subset of the enemies which actually exist in the game. As they get better at dealing with these enemies and managing resourcces (after multiple deaths, usually!), they'll be able to whiz through early levels of the dungeon and start fighting the fresh new batch of baddies deeper down, repeating the fight/death cycle until they get good enough to regularly fight down to the next batch, and so on.
Because Desktop Dungeons has such limited dungeon space, this effort needs to be abstracted: "late game" unlock monsters still share an arena with the initial crew, and keeping certain game features hidden away with unlock requirements seems to emulate this well.
And Lekon brings up a good point regarding gold: unlock opportunities and advanced classes are purposefully put in place to reduce the gold grind later on, to the point where it becomes a lot more trivial to hit the max gold buffer. The early-game grind is really just there to give struggling players a hand up if they've consistently failed to unlock some of the base classes: I rarely used shops until I personally unlocked the full item pool, and by that point I designed the game to have you wading in gold if you so preferred. :P
I hope that this addresses your concerns: I've made a lot of weird decisions with this game so far, but I like to think that they're all made with careful thought and consideration for the players! Thanks for the input, you actually ended up inspiring quite a long post. ;)
dislekcia
08-03-2010, 03:26 PM
Also. The game laughed at me on my win. Beardboy was hiding in a corridor. Killed him. Went ya. Took a step. Next step, Shop with anti magic platemail. Oh that was just mean.
Hahaha! Ok, that's mean :)
I just beat the library level as a Warlord but I don't know how.
...
But I can't see whate else I might possibly have done.
ETA, maybe I'm wrong about how many health potions I drank. Would it take three to get from 3 HP to above 114 HP? Or would it just take 2?
Were you worshipping any gods or had you bought any items that might have given you magic resist?
Dodging a killing blow doesn't work? Or maybe it's because it was a Gorgon. Anyways, I attacked a gorgon as a rogue when my health was <50% and saw a DODGE message float over my head, but I still died from that hit. Did I dodge the attack and die to the petrification?
Gorgons still have to look at you to miss ;)
I was a level 1 orc assassin in the library (with a candlestick :P)
Bwahahaha! Thanks for that line - would be awesome flavor text.
Having just unlocked and fiddled around with Half Dragon, I have to say: The Devs are nuts. In a good way. The Gorgon was kinda a changer (Monk on 'roids) The vampire was a huge change, basically changing the exploration mechanic, and the HD is... playing a game of pool with my enemies. Gotta line that shot up just right, aim and *wham* wall gone! Quite a fun class indeed.
I love playing the Half Dragon too. Nandrew managed to turn a throwaway idea (knockback) into an awesome play mechanic that really changes things up. It's very satisfying smashing an enemy into an enchanted armor to remove the death protect or through a wall to give you a shortcut for later :)
Speusippus
08-03-2010, 03:52 PM
Hahaha! Ok, that's mean :)
Were you worshipping any gods or had you bought any items that might have given you magic resist?
No items, but it's entirely possible I was worshipping a god. Is there one that gives magic resist, or that helps in combat in some non-ui-obvious way? (I'm sure I wasn't worshipping the one that gives a chance to dodge--I never worship that one--and it wouldn't have been any of the ones that take away stats when you start out worshipping them. Who's left?)
Nandrew
08-03-2010, 04:30 PM
No items, but it's entirely possible I was worshipping a god. Is there one that gives magic resist, or that helps in combat in some non-ui-obvious way? (I'm sure I wasn't worshipping the one that gives a chance to dodge--I never worship that one--and it wouldn't have been any of the ones that take away stats when you start out worshipping them. Who's left?)
Hmm, then given your additional criteria (as well as looking over the info presented earlier), it seems you've eliminated each of the gods on at least one count. :/ Or at least the ones who would be able to help you mid-combat!
I'm going to suggest that it may be an item dependency of some sort (off the top of my head, I recall that some of them don't give you "status messages"), but I'm not going to rule out a bug, either -- weirder things have happened to players, after all.
Overall, it's rather difficult to predict exactly what went on in that particular combat: mainly because it took place over several rounds, and there really are quite a few factors that could have come into play. I'll give it more thought later, and try see if I can set up a simulation based on the criteria you offered.
Lekon
08-03-2010, 05:09 PM
The monk is a game of outlasting your opponent.
The Wizard is a game of nuking them until there is naught but goo.
The Warrior is a game of Leveling faster than they can catch you.
The Vampire is a game of surviving the first few rounds.
The Tinker is OOOH SHINEY!
The half dragon is BAR FIGHT! Let's see what I can throw you into next!
Trying to think of a few more of these.
Edit to add:
I think that two of the bloodmage's powers are really weak feeling. BuldToPowah IS better, yes. but at level 6, its 12 per mana. Even with the 15% health per pool, that's basically one pool per spell point, so that doesn't help too much. (Assuming you have around 80-90 hitpoints at level 6. The other problem is the mana potions. It is great to have that much mana... but you can either be an elf for the extra mana and maybe survive drinking one potion (Unless you go blood hoppin'. Or a Gnome and have lots of potions to kill yourself with.. Or maybe halfling so you can drink 'til you glow.
Problem: Vampire can cast until the screen glows with the anger of 100 suns, drink one health potion, and do it again. He does anything the BM can do... better.
My only real suggestion might be some mechanic to combine BM and Vamps skills. Trying to think of a good way to *do* so though.
Speusippus
08-03-2010, 05:42 PM
Hmm, then given your additional criteria (as well as looking over the info presented earlier), it seems you've eliminated each of the gods on at least one count. :/ Or at least the ones who would be able to help you mid-combat!
I'm going to suggest that it may be an item dependency of some sort (off the top of my head, I recall that some of them don't give you "status messages"), but I'm not going to rule out a bug, either -- weirder things have happened to players, after all.
Overall, it's rather difficult to predict exactly what went on in that particular combat: mainly because it took place over several rounds, and there really are quite a few factors that could have come into play. I'll give it more thought later, and try see if I can set up a simulation based on the criteria you offered.
Hey Nandrew, I'll try to watch for similar occurances in the future. I'd say don't worry about this too much--it's far too possible that I'm simply misremembering something.
sagittary
08-03-2010, 07:03 PM
LIke more than a few, registered just to post. :)
As already mentioned many times before, you guys have hit that magic and elusive 'fun' button. I'm reminded of both Puzzle Quest and Diablo; games that were both casual and hardcore, that combined the best of their inspiration with good design and other genres to create something new and better yet somehow still very much grounded proven mechanics. Were I in a position to do so I'd be very much inclined to get this out to the masses. Since I can't, I'll just recommend the donationware route - "if you like the game and want to support, drop a few into the dev's wallet. If you don't want to pay, that's okay too."
Now, that said, minor quibble. The text color of red and blue is almost -impossible- for me to see. It's probably my colorblindness but I have to literally push my face against the monitor to see what my health is when I'm poisoned and when low on health. Other red/blue text is almost as hard to see. It hasn't stopped my from enjoying the game, but it does make it cumbersome to have to take off my glasses and channel my inner blind 80 year old.
Adjustable window size would be nice too. On a 1900x1200 screen, I feel like I should be able to scale the window bigger to have bigger sprites to click on.
chrisf
08-03-2010, 08:19 PM
Adjustable window size would be nice too. On a 1900x1200 screen, I feel like I should be able to scale the window bigger to have bigger sprites to click on.
You can already adjust the window size, I've been doing it every time I run version 0051. It would be nice if it remembered what size it was on close though.
sagittary
08-03-2010, 09:22 PM
You can already adjust the window size, I've been doing it every time I run version 0051. It would be nice if it remembered what size it was on close though.
Devs think of everything. :P Usually this isn't something games of this scale leave out smaller features like this.
Lekon
08-03-2010, 09:50 PM
Devs think of everything. :P Usually this isn't something games of this scale leave out smaller features like this.
Yeah, just click drag the corner and it should be fine. I usually play it at a pretty big resolution.
I have a love/hate with the Animated Armors now. Love that I can go from level 1 to 6 in one shot, hate that if I'm the Half Dragon, those things are my bane.
(Though the Smack someone into them trick? Genius. I never thought to do that.)
Edit:
It was just said exactly how I said it in an IRC channel earlier. My version of describing this game to someone was "It isn't a roguelike, it is Puzzlequest: the Roguelike. The other guy rather likes puzzle quest, and sadly, he's been missing since I told him of the game. We fear the best.
ortoslon
08-03-2010, 10:25 PM
i recorded a video where i just win the "simplest" game with the default character http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNt8vCYmksE
@ortoslon: I get the impression that you're a Roguelike fan, and these particular game design decisions may be controversial.
i greatly enjoy two roguelikes: DCSS (no unlockables, no intra-game effects) and DoomRL (unlockable game modes (which i detest but at least monsters aren't unlocked so modes don't change over time), no intra-game effects)
The unlock system isn't so much a matter of playing through a "worse" game to get to a "better" game, in my opinion, as it is an attempt to get newbie players going through a "simpler" game to a more "complex" one.
i want to be able to choose between a "simpler" and a "more complex" game any time
Because Desktop Dungeons has such limited dungeon space, this effort needs to be abstracted: "late game" unlock monsters still share an arena with the initial crew, and keeping certain game features hidden away with unlock requirements seems to emulate this well.
i like to compare my results with results of other people, for that i need to be sure that we are playing the same game. because of unlockable monsters and cumulative gold, even if we play the same mode with identical characters, we won't be playing the same game unless we've just installed the game
dislekcia
08-03-2010, 11:32 PM
Were I in a position to do so I'd be very much inclined to get this out to the masses. Since I can't, I'll just recommend the donationware route - "if you like the game and want to support, drop a few into the dev's wallet. If you don't want to pay, that's okay too."
Don't worry, as soon as our current project load is finished, we'll be focusing on DD full time with the goal of turning it into the best damn game we can make :)
Now, that said, minor quibble. The text color of red and blue is almost -impossible- for me to see. It's probably my colorblindness but I have to literally push my face against the monitor to see what my health is when I'm poisoned and when low on health. Other red/blue text is almost as hard to see. It hasn't stopped my from enjoying the game, but it does make it cumbersome to have to take off my glasses and channel my inner blind 80 year old.
Don't worry, we'll be redesigning the interface in the next version, we want to remove a lot of the math elements by visually illustrating amounts with health bars and the like. Thanks for the reminder to keep colourblind players in mind! So it's the purple text when you get mana-burned or poisoned that is difficult to see against the black background?
Adjustable window size would be nice too. On a 1900x1200 screen, I feel like I should be able to scale the window bigger to have bigger sprites to click on.
I see other players have already mentioned the window dragging to change size, but you can also instantly fullscreen the game by hitting F4. Hitting F4 again will bring it back to normal size again :)
dislekcia
08-03-2010, 11:40 PM
i recorded a video where i just win the "simplest" game with the default character http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNt8vCYmksE
Sweet! Thanks for that :) You'll be pleased to know that we've analysed your play-style and picked apart every decision you made (Like that worshipping Tikki Tooki was a great idea, you'd have needed a health potion against that last zombie if you hadn't happened to dodge!) and learned a lot from watching someone else play.
i like to compare my results with results of other people, for that i need to be sure that we are playing the same game. because of unlockable monsters and cumulative gold, even if we play the same mode with identical characters, we won't be playing the same game unless we've just installed the game
That's a good point. I think in many ways the challenge dungeons represent situations where you know what you're getting into in terms of the enemies you'll face and what the bosses are going to be. In terms of gold and shop items, they're as random as the dungeon layout (which could kill you early or make it a breeze if you're really lucky) I think it's safe to assume that anyone going into a serious score run is packing the max gold they can carry. We are thinking about the scoring system and high scores a lot though, one of the things we want to do is make them a lot more granular so that people are competing on fairer grounds, like you've said.
ortoslon
08-03-2010, 11:50 PM
maybe make several "tournament" modes where you always start with the same amount of gold and same monster set (different between modes, of course) and unlock all those modes from the start. that way, the game would split into the "ladder"/"campaign" (same as now) and "tournament", and progress in one half wouldn't affect progress in the other half. would be supernice if replays of games were automatically recorded in some terse custom format and replays of top-score games were stored on the same server you store highscore tables
Almost
08-03-2010, 11:56 PM
i like to compare my results with results of other people, for that i need to be sure that we are playing the same game. because of unlockable monsters and cumulative gold, even if we play the same mode with identical characters, we won't be playing the same game unless we've just installed the game
Once you reach ranked mode no more monsters are going to be unlocked which means that you are essentially playing the same game as anybody else that is in ranked mode. This is also the moment at which you are able to submit to the highscore tables.
Tyroie
09-03-2010, 12:06 AM
+10 points
I hope the zelda open-a-chest tune plays if I hold them over my head. :)
As long as points are being handed out for tips, I just discovered something that surprised me in a very nice way. I'll just say the Earthmother is the best enemy a Transmuter could make... I love things like that in a game. (Sorry if this may have already been mentioned)
Also, I think I really like the Vampire enemy a lot, simply because he initiates an attack on his own. So I like the Crypt a lot because it feels like it "pushes back" more than other dungeons.
dislekcia
09-03-2010, 01:08 AM
As long as points are being handed out for tips, I just discovered something that surprised me in a very nice way. I'll just say the Earthmother is the best enemy a Transmuter could make... I love things like that in a game. (Sorry if this may have already been mentioned)
Oh wow. Nandrew and I were just talking about that earlier and he kept saying how obscure it is, nobody would notice it...
Imma have to give you +15 points for that ;)
salejemaster
09-03-2010, 02:17 AM
hey dudes, this one thread is getting really clogged up, would it not be possible to create a DD sub forum in this sub forum so we could have one thread for game dev, one for strategy and one for general discussion, just a thought :p
Feynman
09-03-2010, 02:23 AM
Perhaps you've already tracked down and exterminated this bug, but if not:
Remember that bug a few pages back where somebody went into negative experience? I've managed to replicate that bug consistently. It occurs under the following conditions:
1. You have death protection
2. You have lifestealing (as a result, this bug is most easily replicated in the Crypts with a Paladin).
3. You kill an enemy at the same time it kills you.
4. Your lifestealing is high enough to bring your health back into the positive.
If all of these conditions are met, then when you and your foe kill each other at the same time, your death protection will not activate. Instead, your lifestealing will heal you up, and your death protection will remain active. You will no longer gain levels and can even go into negative experience until you let something kill you and active your death protection. As soon as you use your death protection, you will begin gaining levels again (and if you're in the negative XP, you'll actually level up right then and there).
Not only can this issue stunt your character growth (any XP that pushed you into the negative doesn't carry over into your new level), it can be exploited as well: by deliberately activating the bug before engaging the boss, you can get a few free hits before your death protection activates and restores you to full health and mana. This definitely needs to be fixed in the next version.
sagittary
09-03-2010, 04:51 AM
Don't worry, we'll be redesigning the interface in the next version, we want to remove a lot of the math elements by visually illustrating amounts with health bars and the like. Thanks for the reminder to keep colourblind players in mind! So it's the purple text when you get mana-burned or poisoned that is difficult to see against the black background?
)
Being low on health and being poisoned are the two that stick out the most - I haven't progressed far enough to encounter other special conditions. In general, the red and blue in all instances can be somewhat hard to see at times. It's probably a combination of the font size and the low contrast and less the specific colors themselves.
Almost
09-03-2010, 06:01 AM
Hmm, I seem to have found a bug.
I'm a level one half dragon in the factory. I have converted two glyphs, giving me 60% knockback damage, and I've bought an item to decrease my max damage by 20% and picked up two of the attack + 10% items so I have exactly 5 attack. I have been knocking a level 2 golem into a level 8 animated armour, many more than 8 times. It says that it has run out of charges on it's death protection, and yet it continues to say "saved from death" over and over again.
I tried knocking other enemies into him; he seemed to be invulnerable to knockback death. I then used CYDSTEPP and he died immediately to a normal attack.
Other animated armours are similarly unable to die when having an enemy hit into them.
(Also, when I'm level 1 with 5 attack and have 20% knockback it does 0 damage, though I expect it to do 1 damage)
Feynman
09-03-2010, 07:25 AM
I've noticed that NOTHING can be killed by having another enemy knocked into it, not just animated armor. For whatever reason, I'm guessing that behavior is intentional.
Delvin
09-03-2010, 11:09 AM
Gotta agree, the blood mage still feels kinda useless. BludtoPowah is "slightly" less useless now, but 99% of the time, its just an edible glyph.
Actually, BludtoPowah isn't useless at all.
It allows a L1 sorcerer to beat all of the special challenges with almost no effort! (You lose the trick after the first high lv kill, but you can beat every monster in the dungeon to 1-4HP before that)
This feels extremely cheap, and should probably be fixed somehow.
Nandrew
09-03-2010, 01:58 PM
Ooh, there's quite a few nice ideas here, and thanks again to everybody for pointing out more bugs and balance concerns.
Just to clarify on one issue: it's true that killing an enemy via other-enemy knockback is impossible, no matter what kind of foe they are. You'll always have to deal the final blow directly. I'll try to make this less ambiguous in future version.
Speusippus
09-03-2010, 03:39 PM
Actually, BludtoPowah isn't useless at all.
It allows a L1 sorcerer to beat all of the special challenges with almost no effort! (You lose the trick after the first high lv kill, but you can beat every monster in the dungeon to 1-4HP before that)
This feels extremely cheap, and should probably be fixed somehow.
I'll just straightforwardly ask you to spoil this one for me. I can't figure out how you'd do this.
Blood-to-power generally allows you to gain six mana by draining all of your health (this holds generally whatever your clevel might be). I can't see how that affords you anything more than an extra fireball, which of course is not nearly sufficient to bring high level monsters down to 1-4 HP. With potions, you can squeeze some more out of the glyph, but of course, there are only so many potions available.
And you're not talking about a method that also uses bloodpools, since you're talking about beating down everything to 1-4 HP without actually killing it until you're ready to kill everything.
So I give up! How do you do it?
dislekcia
09-03-2010, 04:20 PM
Wow, that's tedious! But something we definitely need to look into, thanks Delvin!
u2892
09-03-2010, 04:48 PM
Thanks Nandrew for a great game :)
Some things I noticed:
-> I once ended up in a dungeon which was absolutely empty except for the maze, level 1 me, and the boss (Gharbad the goat). Some sort of special level? (Didn't think to take a screenshot unfortunately)
-> Are half-dragon attacks really intended to knock enemies *through* walls? Makes for a tough fight, since they'll regenerate on the fly while you chase them through the walls and reveal more squares.
[Edit] Also, a suggestion... how about a separate speed bonus based on the number of steps taken (the usual measure of completion speed in other roguelikes)?
Vandal
09-03-2010, 04:54 PM
Actually, BludtoPowah isn't useless at all.
It allows a L1 sorcerer to beat all of the special challenges with almost no effort! (You lose the trick after the first high lv kill, but you can beat every monster in the dungeon to 1-4HP before that)
This feels extremely cheap, and should probably be fixed somehow.
This is assuming you meet the conditions of finding both Blood and Fireball glyphs in the same game, early enough to actually do this with them. If you want to start scum there are far more broken combinations than this in the game, like a Vampire getting the no-magic or lifesteal gods before killing anything, and they only require 1 variable! Anyways you've managed to name the one circumstance where Bloodtopowah might actually need nerfed, in most other situations it really is a trash glyph. Poison, Heal, Fireball, +30% dmg, First Strike and even Death Protection are all far more useful overall.
Chippit
09-03-2010, 04:54 PM
I'll just straightforwardly ask you to spoil this one for me. I can't figure out how you'd do this.
Blood-to-power generally allows you to gain six mana by draining all of your health (this holds generally whatever your clevel might be). I can't see how that affords you anything more than an extra fireball, which of course is not nearly sufficient to bring high level monsters down to 1-4 HP. With potions, you can squeeze some more out of the glyph, but of course, there are only so many potions available.
And you're not talking about a method that also uses bloodpools, since you're talking about beating down everything to 1-4 HP without actually killing it until you're ready to kill everything.
So I give up! How do you do it?
You need to have three very specific glyphs (counting the fireball, of course) to pull it off, so it's not going to happen except in very specific circumstances.
Vandal
09-03-2010, 04:56 PM
Thanks Nandrew for a great game :)
-> Are half-dragon attacks really intended to knock enemies *through* walls? Makes for a tough fight, since they'll regenerate on the fly while you chase them through the walls and reveal more squares.
Seconding this. It really is annoying how you / monsters heal as a result, but I think it is intentional to keep you from being able to almost always use the damage bonus.
Speusippus
09-03-2010, 05:37 PM
You need to have three very specific glyphs (counting the fireball, of course) to pull it off, so it's not going to happen except in very specific circumstances.
Trying to remember all the glyphs:
First Strike
Biceps
Fireball
Teleport Self
Teleport Other
Destroy Wall
Petrify
Heal
Poison
Blood to Power
Sidestep
Am I forgetting anything?
Delvin
09-03-2010, 05:49 PM
You need to have three very specific glyphs (counting the fireball, of course) to pull it off, so it's not going to happen except in very specific circumstances.
Only two. BludToPowah and Fireball (and at least 13HP, which is trivial compared to the other requirements, since you'll likely find enough medikits or spare glyphs to convert). And it doesn't matter when you find them. Could be the last tile you uncover, as long as it's accessible at level 1.
Still a fairly narrow case, but worth noting anyway. (For the record, I'm going to do my sorcerer runs without this.)
And I don't know about vampires. Haven't unlocked them yet.
Chippit
09-03-2010, 05:57 PM
Hmm, the case I imagined required the healing glyph too, but I can actually see that it would only make the process less tedious (and work into higher levels), but not actually be necessary. Well spotted.
Lekon
09-03-2010, 06:52 PM
Hmm, the case I imagined required the healing glyph too, but I can actually see that it would only make the process less tedious (and work into higher levels), but not actually be necessary. Well spotted.
Soon as he mentioned it, a black light went on above my head. "Ahah! That is just.. devious" I hadn't thought of using the healing glyph, just of getting a few hitpoints some how. I was thinking Dwarf Sorc to do it.
I think my main problem with Blud is that it gets worse per level, and it gets much worse, fast. Past level 1 or maybe 2 or 3, it's way to painful to use for the return you get, except maybe in a few situations, most of the other glyphs have a number of uses (Well, I'm still iffy on the use of Stoning aside from a quick score pad/bonus to the Earth Mom health)
I love when an odd glitch like that comes up, because it just shows how creative players can be in using the ruleset! That earth mother thing was awesome!
Vandal
09-03-2010, 08:15 PM
And I don't know about vampires. Haven't unlocked them yet.
Well, in 2 different games yesterday I had 150 atk power from getting the no-magic god before I started killing things, and 50% life steal from burning glyphs. Ranked mode Frank hits for 75 dmg. I ended him without using any potions or spells at full hp. 5~ minute clear.
Vampires themselves are pretty overpowered, and the no-magic god is pretty much better than all the others except possibly the Necro god (as a Vampire mainly). You don't even need a god to kill Nine Toes (Bandit boss) without using any potions or spells. Meatboy boss is probably not that hard for them to kill without a god either.
The Dracul god gets your life steal to 75% or (possibly higher? I don't remember) and doesn't hit Vamps with the -10 maxhp for starting to worship him. You're practically unkillable just like having 150 dmg and draining 50% of it. The only thing you have to be careful of is not killing Undead because he'll still hit vamps with the -5 maxhp for doing that.
Almost
10-03-2010, 01:17 AM
Blud2powa works well when fireballing a poisoned enemy, since it essentially increases your mana regeneration. (with blud2powa every tile explored can be thought to count as 1.5 mana instead of 1 mana) This works well for an assassin that does best if it reaches the highest levels quickly.
Meatboy is ridiculously easy to kill as a vampire. If you have either Taurog or Dracul you should be able to lifesteal faster than he hurts you, meaning you are actually healing when you attack him.
Also, I though vampires were quite powerful before I realized that they can cast fireball almost forever. I think that they should have the same no fireball limitation as the half dragon has.
I'm impressed with the idea of a level 1 sorcerer with Blud2Powa, although that is rather cheap.
Seems like a bug: when you anger the magic only god I believe all glyphs are meant to shatter after use, however when I use HALPMEH or LEMMISI I get the shatter message yet the glyph remains.
[edit]
Could I request that not so many of the player character art was just tinting of other player character art? As is if I want to change what the player vampire does I have to change what the player thief looks like, which is not what I want to do. It just seems to me that, since there is a custom tileset support, it would be possible to create images for each unit not just for 4 of them that will be reused for all 18 of them.
Lots to say!
First of all thanks for making this! It is awesome. I am enjoying it a great deal. I was checking every day for the release of the new version and it lived up to my personal hype, the new classes, races and challenge maps are excellent.
I've found a range of bugs in the new version, most of which I am sure you are aware of but I'll go over them anyway since I've not seen them posted here yet.
Most importantly: The three special races don't count towards unlocking the challenge maps!
I've completed the Library with every class, all 18 of them, but it still states that it is 15/18 complete. This goes for every special race on every challenge map.
Poisoning while the Glowing Guardian is your deity causes an error:
___________________________________________
ERROR in
action number 1
of Mouse Event for Glob Left Released
for object Roomwatch:
In script GlowingPunish:
Error in code at line 1:
if (Hero.godWarning==0) and (global.class!=RC_VAMPIRE)
at position 10: Unknown variable godWarning
Which is obviously godly disapproval. Apparently his wrath is such it breaks the fourth wall.
The Vampire extra health invincibility bug was discussed, but I'll add that it seems to stop them being one-shot by characters with first strike. A level 10 Assassin cannot kill a level 1 vamp in one hit if he has stolen a bit of health (say 10/6).
If you hit the vamps once and then let them regenerate they can be killed normally.
I normally hit the level 1 vamps once at level 1 and walk off, or use a fireball at level 1 on any vamps that steal health (it does 4 damage which perfectly burns off the 4 health they steal at level 1 with 10 player health.
I actually found a few more... but I've forgotten them at the moment. I'll remember/re-encounter soon enough.
Next up some suggestions:
I think the Crusader should not lose his momentum by using fireball. Perhaps this was left in to stop him being overpowered, but it feels wrong and makes the ability considerably worse.
It is most noticeable in the crypt against wraiths and the wraith boss. I have full mana and BURN THEIR ASS and I've just gone on a killing spree to build up momentum to lay the smack down on the boss wraith, but if I attack first to use my momentum bonus I lose all my fireball mana to mana burn! If I fireball first to use the mana, I lose momentum! Very unhappy situation.
Vamps (as recently discussed) are either dead in ten seconds or incredibly powerful and smash through everything. I've been repeatedly getting 40k+ with 3:00 boss kills with vamps when the starting situation is just right. It's not that they are unbalanced, they are difficult to play sometimes, but if you get lucky they are totally overpowered.
Normally I'll play through 5 quick vampire games where they die within twenty seconds because the start is not viable or worth keeping before I stumble on the right set up and dominate. It becomes more luck of the start than skill of the player.
At level 1 they die incredibly quickly from health loss, at level 5+ it hardly matters. Perhaps making it less dangerous lower level and more at higher levels would stop them being such a luck based race.
Glitterfinger is useless. Either you've Goblin Wizard'ed your way to wealth and have max cash and are looking for a God with more perks, or you are Goblin Wizarding your way to prepare for a run and won't waste time killing things. Maybe he could have an effect based upon your accumulation of wealth? Perhaps picking up gold also regenerates health/mana?
Earthmother is also a very poor deity. The health gain from petrifying enemies is too little, especially considering you are losing the experience, and it costs a lot of mana and takes up a slot. Bigger rewards would make her more appealing, perhaps more health for higher level monster statues.
As mentioned you can get a Lv1 Sorc with fireball, Blud2powa and 13 hp and rape the whole map; but it is SO TEDIOUS I don't consider it much of a problem. It would seriously take an hour... Anyone who has the patience for such methods deserves the victory. Sorc is powerful anyway, quite an easy clear on all challenge maps.
And I'll finish up with some stuff I really like:
Tinkers are really fun. It's great seeing how many crazy items you can shove on one lil' guy. I won't rest till I have a life-stealing, knock-backing, first-striking magical-attacking, super resistant Uber-Tinker wielding a BWAAAANG Guitar. (How rare!? I've only ever seen one!)
Contrary to some opinions, I really like unlocking things. The unlocking that you have to do with each character gives a steady stream of challenges and new puzzles. Finding the best way for each class to complete each map is great fun. I think it works really well. (apart from the aforementioned special races failing to unlock bug)
The Gods are now much more important and really fun. They can be overpowered (Glowing Guardian in the Crypt ftw) but that is not bad (it is, in fact, awesome). I like how important finding the shrines early is; they are much more important to a dungeon plan of action now.
All in all, its really good and I will follow the continued development with great interest! Keep up the good work guys, and thanks :D
Nandrew
10-03-2010, 05:03 AM
Thanks again everyone for the bug spots, in particular the Sorcerer bloodpower exploit (eek! Though there's plans to rework the glyph into something quite different come next version ...)
@DMT: A few of the bugs / issues you mention have actually been fixed with the v0.051 patch: check the beginning of the thread for an updated download, it'll make your gaming experience a little less annoying. :P
Tinkers are really fun. It's great seeing how many crazy items you can shove on one lil' guy. I won't rest till I have a life-stealing, knock-backing, first-striking magical-attacking, super resistant Uber-Tinker wielding a BWAAAANG Guitar. (How rare!? I've only ever seen one!)
Holy crap! You've found the guitar!
aguydude
10-03-2010, 05:05 AM
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1627/ultimatelevel1.png (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/ultimatelevel1.png/)
Bludtopowa is useless, except just this once :). I was too lazy to bring the other level 10 monster down to low health before killing the boss, or I would've been able to kill two bosses and nothing else.
Hmmm. I thought of this idea before even reading the thread. I guess this trick is too obvious.
Lekon
10-03-2010, 07:56 AM
Thanks again everyone for the bug spots, in particular the Sorcerer bloodpower exploit (eek! Though there's plans to rework the glyph into something quite different come next version ...)
@DMT: A few of the bugs / issues you mention have actually been fixed with the v0.051 patch: check the beginning of the thread for an updated download, it'll make your gaming experience a little less annoying. :P
Holy crap! You've found the guitar!
I was going to mention... Crusaders are immune to mana burn in .51, were they not in 50? I finally unlocked my crusader. First test run of him: Crypt. Game starts, next to me? GETINDERE glyph, neat. As I pick it up.. a glowing guardian altar. I became a holy pinball of DOOM in that dungeon. Nothing lived. was pushing 180 damage easily in more than a few places.
Also: Wtf does the zombie dog do!? I've bought him a few times but couldn't see a purpose.
Bob the Gnome
10-03-2010, 09:29 AM
Got linked to this from another game, instantly hooked, thought I should register to share my appreciation. So thanks for giving me another time sink. :P
Really enjoying the unlockable stuff, especially the challenges. It's fun to try and figure out strategies for them. I think the only thing that I'm not enjoying is the math. Or more specifically trying to figure out my attack bonuses/damage reduction that isn't being calculated in the pop up. Adding up hits and stuff is fun but when I have to break out the calculator it starts to get boggy. Also this is pedantic, but nidhogg isn't the world serpent, J?rmungandr is. Nidhogg is the dragon who gnaws on the roots of yggdrasill.
Also: Wtf does the zombie dog do!? I've bought him a few times but couldn't see a purpose.
I think it gives Protection from Killing Blow, though I'm not 100% sure I didn't have that from something else.
The Dash
10-03-2010, 09:43 AM
I think it gives Protection from Killing Blow, though I'm not 100% sure I didn't have that from something else.
It does indeed. For 1 gold its a bargain
Lekon
10-03-2010, 10:01 AM
Ah hah! No wonder I didn't notice it. I use Cydestep all the dang time. makes sense I wouldn't see anything different when having the dog around. Wow, for 1 gold that IS a bargain. Especially when the one off form of Bysepps is 30 gold or so.
Speusippus
10-03-2010, 05:33 PM
Tips and hints, please, on beating Factory as a Wizard. (I haven't beat Factory at all yet, but I'm trying with a Wizard since, I figure, that kills two unlock birds with one stone.)
Here are the kinds of characters I've tried:
Elf Wizard, worshipping the Arcane god, going for straight up fireball power. Beaten, of course, by too much magic resistance.
Elf Wizard, worshipping the Destruction god, going for hopefully sufficient physical damage, while using fireballs when it makes sense to do so.
Human Wizard, worshipping the God who doesn't let you use magic, pretending not to be a wizard at all and just going for physical damage.
I can't remember what glyph combinations I've been able to try. Would you guys say Factory/Wizard is glyph-combo dependent?
Is there some way to efficiently kill Enchanted Armor when it's higher than level two or three or so? Right now, I pretty much just don't even touch them when they're past level three or so--it just seems to cost me too much to kill them. I have to get the HP back between each hit (or couple of hits), or else, I have to use Sidestep and then get the mana back between each hit.
Chippit
10-03-2010, 06:05 PM
Tips and hints, please, on beating Factory as a Wizard. (I haven't beat Factory at all yet, but I'm trying with a Wizard since, I figure, that kills two unlock birds with one stone.)
Here are the kinds of characters I've tried:
Elf Wizard, worshipping the Arcane god, going for straight up fireball power. Beaten, of course, by too much magic resistance.
Elf Wizard, worshipping the Destruction god, going for hopefully sufficient physical damage, while using fireballs when it makes sense to do so.
Human Wizard, worshipping the God who doesn't let you use magic, pretending not to be a wizard at all and just going for physical damage.
I can't remember what glyph combinations I've been able to try. Would you guys say Factory/Wizard is glyph-combo dependent?
Is there some way to efficiently kill Enchanted Armor when it's higher than level two or three or so? Right now, I pretty much just don't even touch them when they're past level three or so--it just seems to cost me too much to kill them. I have to get the HP back between each hit (or couple of hits), or else, I have to use Sidestep and then get the mana back between each hit.
Actually, with a wizard, I tend to look for the highest level enchanted armour I can find. Killing a level 9 one as a level 1 wizard with fireball jumps you straight to level 6 (with 6 xp to spare, if I've worked it out correctly). That's quite an advantage for any class.
Yup, pop yourself a really fat armour before you kill anything else. Explore as much of the map as you can, using every scrap of mana to reduce every armour you see to 0 death saves. Ideally you want almost the whole map explored and every armour ready to die before you even level up.
Then pick your diety and blast the highest level armour. Then hit super meat man physically and magically until you'll die/are out of mana and one-shot low level monsters to level up. Rinse and repeat until the mighty red man is dead. Use up excess hit points each level causing damage to the meat men, so they die easier in future. The Iron man shouldn't be too hard once your level 9/10 with all your healing potions remaining.
That is how I did it, at least. I'm a big fan of having the whole map explored at level 1 and using level ups to heal my way to victory.
I was going to mention... Crusaders are immune to mana burn in .51, were they not in 50? I finally unlocked my crusader.
You are correct! I got my stories mixed up. It was actually in the factory. I was hoping to knock off an armour life without losing my momentum.
New versions seems great, I've not found anything wrong yet :D
Evolution
10-03-2010, 07:21 PM
Great game. Good to see you polishing up your game ideas instead of jumping to a new one. Just want to point out something. I've noticed that luck plays a big part in the success of a game. Can you make it less random, and let it rely more on the player's skill.
DukeOFprunes
10-03-2010, 07:59 PM
Great game. Good to see you polishing up your game ideas instead of jumping to a new one. Just want to point out something. I've noticed that luck plays a big part in the success of a game. Can you make it less random, and let it rely more on the player's skill.
Randomness obviously does infuse an element of luck, but this game does not suffer from an excessive dependance on it. A skillful player will succeed.
Lekon
10-03-2010, 08:24 PM
Randomness obviously does infuse an element of luck, but this game does not suffer from an excessive dependance on it. A skillful player will succeed.
Gotta agree here. I've had games where luck made it easier, but I still lost, and ones where I basically won without a single item bought or god taken. I almost always get the Tooth and Freakin' Nail achievement on games I win, strangely enough. Crusader's especially fun for this because I can take the boss with me, Muahaha.
Also, for the guy having trouble with Wizard/Factory, everyone's given great tips so far. (Hit the big armors, lower all the armors you can with fireballs, etc) My suggestions:
1) If there isn't a HALPHMEH glyph, its going to be harder, but not impossible. I finally won when I got both Halph and fireball.
2) Be a halfling. Those extra spells become potions, then in the final fight itself, you can burn mana for healing, use potions, nom on glyphs for extra healing. It still took me several tries but damn it felt good to beat it.
Great game. Good to see you polishing up your game ideas instead of jumping to a new one. Just want to point out something. I've noticed that luck plays a big part in the success of a game. Can you make it less random, and let it rely more on the player's skill.
If you want to be more skillful, try and win the unlucky spawns. Truly skillful players should be able to win games that might seem impossible to less skilled players.
If you are running ranked games for a high score, obviously you'll be looking for the best spawn you can get, and then maximizing the score you can get from it is the test of skill.
salejemaster
11-03-2010, 12:07 AM
hey, can anyone give some tips on passing the factory with the wizard its the last challenge I have left and I cant quite make it :P, tnx :)
SmallGods
11-03-2010, 12:20 AM
Loving the new build, good work! Finally nailed a 2nd tier class (yes yes I know, not that impressive, but not everyone can be a god-like rogue-like player ;))
SmallGods (Dwarf Rogue)
Slew the dungeon boss in 9:12 (+10470 score)
Damage dealt: 10344 Exploration: 1352
Monsters killed: 3900 Monsters petrified: 0
Boss killed: 3500 Characters level: 4320
Awards:
Warmonger: Didn't use any glyph skills. (600)
Lay off the spirits: Didn't consume any mana potions (500)
Unstoppable: Defeated all monsters level 8 or higher without petrification. (2000)
Total score: 36986
Sorry to post it all out, but its easily my highest score yet after weeks of play, and I'm rather proud of it! ^_^ (the boss was a Medusa btw)
DeSangre
11-03-2010, 12:44 AM
Hi all!
I just wanted to add my 2 cents and say that this game is awesome! :)
Not only that though! It is so awesome that it's the first game I actually reviewed on my blog!
Alas, the blog is in Italian, but you can read the Engrish translation that somewhat makes sense. :D
This is the link to the Engrish version (I think it's somewhat understandable)
http://tinyurl.com/ykblj9z
Here's the link for the few Italian readers
http://desangrez.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/provato-desktop-dungeons
Hope you have at least a bit of fun with the Google Engrish :D
"Why throw the ball in math?" The answer is not easy indeed.
I might come around to actually translate that review and put it on tig. I'll probably do that tomorrow.
Nandrew
11-03-2010, 02:58 AM
Hey all, Desktop Dungeons has its own Wiki (http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/DesktopDungeons/index.php) now!
Due to the burgeoning demand for guides, references and, well, general community organisation, those who want to document and arrange the collective base of DD knowledge are welcome to contribute towards the above site, with hosting kindly provided by QCF Design (http://www.qcfdesign.com/). I've already got Evan "Vandal" Williams volunteering to manage it a bit and start populating pages, and I'm sure that some of the other vets out there would love to pass their own builds / suggestions / wisdom / snippets of info about super cool rare items.
While the good folks at QCF provide hosting and will step in for admin as needed, the wiki is more the community's baby than anything else. Do what you want with it, and use it to relieve strain on the thread when you think it's necessary. :P
Speusippus
11-03-2010, 03:47 AM
hey, can anyone give some tips on passing the factory with the wizard its the last challenge I have left and I cant quite make it :P, tnx :)
Wizard/Factory is spoiled on the previous page so if you want, you can look there. If you want hints without spoilers, don't look. Here's a tip:
Notice that as a wizard, even the highest level Enchanted Armor will die to only a small number of blows--and you almost certainly don't have to take any damage in return.
Well, kind of a big tip I guess.
Grumpf
11-03-2010, 09:28 AM
I just registered to this forum to say a big THANKS! to the dev of the game - I _love_ it.
OK, and to have notifications on future updates too I admit :)
The only feature that I'd like is 2 numbers displayed: damage-30%=? and damage+30%=?, so that I don't use calc when I play (feel free to laugh).
Please keep up the great work on it, you have a perl here.
iceblademush
11-03-2010, 09:46 AM
Random Idea for a new class: Shape-shifter, you become the last enemy you kill without using magic... Not quite sure how you would implement it, maybe you keep certain stats.. like your +% damage and your extra HP, but you become the monster otherwise...
Just had to share....
The_Furry_Cat
11-03-2010, 09:47 AM
Wow, it's really addictive :O Thanks :D
Chippit
11-03-2010, 12:28 PM
Hey all, Desktop Dungeons has its own Wiki (http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/DesktopDungeons/index.php) now!
Due to the burgeoning demand for guides, references and, well, general community organisation, those who want to document and arrange the collective base of DD knowledge are welcome to contribute towards the above site, with hosting kindly provided by QCF Design (http://www.qcfdesign.com/). I've already got Evan "Vandal" Williams volunteering to manage it a bit and start populating pages, and I'm sure that some of the other vets out there would love to pass their own builds / suggestions / wisdom / snippets of info about super cool rare items.
While the good folks at QCF provide hosting and will step in for admin as needed, the wiki is more the community's baby than anything else. Do what you want with it, and use it to relieve strain on the thread when you think it's necessary. :P
I was wondering when you'd set up one of these.
The Dash
11-03-2010, 05:40 PM
http://i43.tinypic.com/qrybr9.jpg
Wow, the most fireball damage i've been able to do in a long time. Enough to kill most bosses without using mana potions, uncovering blocks etc
Grumpf
11-03-2010, 09:32 PM
Bug found ?
0.051 game
Rogue, level 8, I just killed the level 10 Boss, I bumped to level 9, full HP full Mana
I had the LEMMISI spell (reveals 3 blocks)
I had 12/12 Mana
I could cast the spell as many times as I wanted. Each cast did not cost me 3 Mana for some reason
After 10 ? or so clicks, my Mana went to 2/12 (!!)
I had the necklace?pendant? which gives +1 Mana after each kill, perhaps it's the cause.
Chippit
11-03-2010, 09:44 PM
Bug found ?
0.051 game
Rogue, level 8, I just killed the level 10 Boss, I bumped to level 9, full HP full Mana
I had the LEMMISI spell (reveals 3 blocks)
I had 12/12 Mana
I could cast the spell as many times as I wanted. Each cast did not cost me 3 Mana for some reason
After 10 ? or so clicks, my Mana went to 2/12 (!!)
I had the necklace?pendant? which gives +1 Mana after each kill, perhaps it's the cause.
Not a bug. :P LEMMISI is working as it should.
Speusippus
11-03-2010, 10:09 PM
Not a bug. :P LEMMISI is working as it should.
What about the part where is mana went down to 2/12?
(It could be that he ran out of spaces to reveal? Is LEMMISI castable once the whole map is revealed?)
Grumpf
11-03-2010, 10:54 PM
When the map was fully revealed, I couldn't cast the spell anymore. Then I watched my mana, 2/12 which seemed odd to me, I expected 12 (or at least 9-6-3-0).
Chippit
11-03-2010, 11:26 PM
What about the part where is mana went down to 2/12?
(It could be that he ran out of spaces to reveal? Is LEMMISI castable once the whole map is revealed?)
You can keep casting the spell, yes, that would be the point where his mana went down. It probably stopped at 2/12 because the number of remaining blocks on the map wasn't a multiple of 3, so one cast only earned him 2 mana back instead of three, resulting in the odd number. He stopped being able to cast the spell when he ran out of mana.
Almost
11-03-2010, 11:35 PM
Heh, the fact that LEMMISI is not a bug should be added to the readme.
Grumpf: revealing squares restores mana. Every time you used Lemmisi it restored the 3 mana that it cost. However, when you ran out of squares, it stopped regenerating mana but still cost mana to cast. 2 as opposed to 3 just means that at one point there were only two tiles left to be explored, so you spent 3 mana to explore them and regenerated only two. After that you just spent 3 mana multiple times until you were unable to.
Chippit
12-03-2010, 12:51 AM
Heh, the fact that LEMMISI is not a bug should be added to the readme.
It's a bit of a spoiler, though, isn't it? :P
Grumpf
12-03-2010, 01:02 AM
It's a bit of a spoiler, though, isn't it? :P
Wow - I just got it. Feels like a revelation :)
Lekon
12-03-2010, 01:09 AM
Wow - I just got it. Feels like a revelation :)
You figured out the trick! (300)
Tr00jg
12-03-2010, 11:44 AM
Epic fun. Really. I love the puzzle elements, especially the trade off between exploring and regaining health vs. staying to fight.
Haven't won a game yet (of the 5 games I played), but came to level 9. Still epic fun.
Going to play a bit more before I give more comments:
Just 2 suggestions:
-> Glyph Conversion. If you convert glyphs, it was quite unintuitive at first. I didn't know if the glyph conversion icon thing was an actual glyph or not. I highlighted over it, and found out though. I'd like a larger conversion icon, to show that you can convert it. And when converting, allow the glyph to actually "drag", not just stay there, while you move the mouse to the conversion icon.
****ty Photoshop mockup: Something like this
http://imgur.com/OcKlt.jpg
EDIT: Also.
Achievement list place. I want a place to show me all my achievements I got. Since the ranked games are submitted, it would be an interesting meta-perspective on the game. It can show how many people got a certain achievement. I can even imagine it being on a website somewhere. :)
Nferno
12-03-2010, 03:27 PM
___________________________________________
ERROR in
action number 1
of Mouse Event for Glob Left Released
for object Roomwatch:
Error in code at line 318:
if (nu.deathgaze>((d+Hero.hp)/Hero.max_hp)*100)
at position 53: Division by 0.
Got an error playing with the Monk earlier and now again. Still playing .005, have yet to try the newer version still, maybe the problem is fixed there. This has only happened while playing with ze Monk.
dislekcia
12-03-2010, 03:38 PM
Got an error playing with the Monk earlier and now again. Still playing .005, have yet to try the newer version still, maybe the problem is fixed there. This has only happened while playing with ze Monk.
Please see if you can reproduce the error in the latest version? I haven't been able to so far... Also, what exactly were you doing when the error message appeared? I assume you were fighting a gorgon of some kind?
Nferno
12-03-2010, 03:54 PM
Please see if you can reproduce the error in the latest version? I haven't been able to so far... Also, what exactly were you doing when the error message appeared? I assume you were fighting a gorgon of some kind?
I was fighting a Snake-like creature, may have been a Naga. I will download the newer version and see if it happens again, if it does I'll post the message.
Love DD :D
Grumpf
12-03-2010, 05:47 PM
Bug ? I was playing Wizard level 8.
I poisoned the Boss (he was poisoned)
I poisoned a Gorgon (it was poisoned)
I kept using Fireball + exploring (to regen Mana) on the Gorgon, I killed it.
I returned to the Boss, it was still Poisoned.
So Poisoning (and perhaps casting offensive spells) on other monsters don't remove the Poison effect on the 1st target ?
DeSangre
12-03-2010, 06:29 PM
A suggestion: since the game "evolves" it would be fine if you could play "any previous state reached" as far as unlockables are concerned without having to change profiles.
Just a thought.
(Edited, because I didn't notice profiles are already in the game LOL)
DeSangre
12-03-2010, 11:59 PM
Got a good run today, which I recorded!
Desktop Dungeon - default (e.g. nothing unlocked) in under 5 minutes (4:59, but still :D).
Gnome Wizard
Hope my commentary isn't too annoying, if it is, zero your volume :D
I got +18060 for the 4:59 time
and then a total final score of 46688
The final screen is at the end of the movie (not surprisingly? :D)
Drop a comment if you like it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9miGBr17gE4
dislekcia
13-03-2010, 01:37 AM
Got a good run today, which I recorded!
Desktop Dungeon - default (e.g. nothing unlocked) in under 5 minutes (4:59, but still :D).
Gnome Wizard
Hope my commentary isn't too annoying, if it is, zero your volume :D
I got +18060 for the 4:59 time
and then a total final score of 46688
The final screen is at the end of the movie (not surprisingly? :D)
Drop a comment if you like it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9miGBr17gE4
Whoa, that was really cool! Loved the commentary (especially when you were tunneling for the fireball right after getting Annur), it's great hearing what someone was thinking as they play the game. You actually gave me an idea that went into the "to be considered" pile ;)
Thanks for the watch, I enjoyed that a lot. Gonna show it to Nandrew in a sec too.
Chippit
13-03-2010, 02:11 AM
Got a good run today, which I recorded!
Desktop Dungeon - default (e.g. nothing unlocked) in under 5 minutes (4:59, but still :D).
Gnome Wizard
Hope my commentary isn't too annoying, if it is, zero your volume :D
I got +18060 for the 4:59 time
and then a total final score of 46688
The final screen is at the end of the movie (not surprisingly? :D)
Drop a comment if you like it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9miGBr17gE4
Whoa, that was really cool! Loved the commentary (especially when you were tunneling for the fireball right after getting Annur), it's great hearing what someone was thinking as they play the game. You actually gave me an idea that went into the "to be considered" pile ;)
Thanks for the watch, I enjoyed that a lot. Gonna show it to Nandrew in a sec too.
Heh, this highlights an issue I keep forgetting to raise to. Your 'miscalculation' wasn't, in fact, a miscalculation at all, but it ended up that way because you inadvertently revealed a tile when casting that first fireball. The game deals damage first and then reveals the tile, so your first fireball only did 4 damage instead of 8. It's an issue that's always annoyed me about the game, actually, since it seems to make little sense. You'd imagine your character would have to move to the spot first, and THEN cast a fireball. :P
So yeah, I'd appreciate it if that order gets tweaked a bit, because it seems I'm not the only one caught out by this.
DeSangre
13-03-2010, 10:13 AM
Heh, this highlights an issue I keep forgetting to raise to. Your 'miscalculation' wasn't, in fact, a miscalculation at all, but it ended up that way because you inadvertently revealed a tile when casting that first fireball. The game deals damage first and then reveals the tile, so your first fireball only did 4 damage instead of 8.
I can't understand what's the difference if I revealed that tile or not (logically speaking).
I'm already at 20 mana, enough for 4 fireballs, but even if I only had 5 mana, that first fireball should've hit for 8 damage anyway since I was already level 2.
This looks to me like a plain bug. It's fun how the "red floating number" says 8 when only 4 HP are actually subtracted from the monster's health.
Chippit
13-03-2010, 10:52 AM
I can't understand what's the difference if I revealed that tile or not (logically speaking).
I'm already at 20 mana, enough for 4 fireballs, but even if I only had 5 mana, that first fireball should've hit for 8 damage anyway since I was already level 2.
This looks to me like a plain bug. It's fun how the "red floating number" says 8 when only 4 HP are actually subtracted from the monster's health.
No, see, that's the thing. You DID hit for 8 damage, but then you revealed one tile, enough to restore 4 hp to the monster (it's level 4). You'll notice you regained 1 mana too. I'll agree that it's fair to class as a bug, though, since it behaves in a non-intuitive manner. I do remember raising this issue with Nandrew once now, actually, but it still behaves the same way. It's probably not high on the to-do list.
fall_ark
13-03-2010, 11:21 AM
I understand that's how the mechanics should work, but seeing vampires revealed by the LEMMISI glyph steal your life just feels.... weird. :P
Finally unlocked all class/races! Haven't won with the Transmuter and Half-dragon so far...and the Crusader's just been unlocked (I did one run with the Crusader but died due to my own stupidity in the snake pit...duh!).
// I concur with the view that the 2 teleport glyphs should have more ....hmm, more things added to them. How about some awards?
Gamewise, the self-teleport glyph might be useful in a closed section (and gain some mana if arriving in an unexplored place), but the randomness means it's too big a risk. However it would be too powerful if it always land you in an unexplored place....
And the PISORF glyph just seems inferior to the ENDISWAL glyph in most cases...
prestige
13-03-2010, 01:53 PM
Hi, I just registered to say I've been enjoying this game for the past few days.
I have one interface suggestion to make. Instead of having a box pop up whenever I step on an altar, how about having the info appear in the deity panel? So if I currently have no god and step on an altar, the description appears in that panel, along with a button to start worshiping that deity. If I already have a god and step on an altar, then the description simply appears in the panel. That way, I wouldn't have to click to clear the info box.
Anyway, just a suggestion. Thanks for creating this cool game.
fall_ark
13-03-2010, 05:14 PM
http://i.imgur.com/5Hmyp.png
Just cleaned the snake pit with a gorgon. Oh the irony :P
Hi, I just registered to say I've been enjoying this game for the past few days.
I have one interface suggestion to make. Instead of having a box pop up whenever I step on an altar, how about having the info appear in the deity panel? So if I currently have no god and step on an altar, the description appears in that panel, along with a button to start worshiping that deity. If I already have a god and step on an altar, then the description simply appears in the panel. That way, I wouldn't have to click to clear the info box.
Anyway, just a suggestion. Thanks for creating this cool game.
Seconded!
Speusippus
13-03-2010, 06:45 PM
Thanks for the advice about how to do the Factory as a Wizard. I'm just not getting it. To illustrate, I'll show you how I can't make the math work out.
Say I explore the whole map and get all the armor down to a single life. I now kill the level 9 armor, getting me to level six. There's nothing left to do, really, but start in on the Meat Man boss, right? So I start. I hit him with two fireballs, for 48 damage total. Using potions at this time would be a waste since they will give me more damge when I am at a higher level. So I go gain a level by killing other monsters. I hit meat man now for 56 additional damage with fireballs. Again, using mana potions would be counterproductive. So I go gain another level. (This doesn't always seem possible, but let's assume in this case that it is.) I now hit meat man for an additional 64 damage through fireballs. Gain another level. (Really practically impossible in my experience, but assuming it's not...) Now hit meat man for another 72 damage. Now, suppose I am a gnome. I've now got potentially 9 mana potions (assuming there was a mana potion shop.) Each of those restores five mana points. So now I can hit meat man for an additional 180 damage. I've now done a total of 420 damage. I can hit him maybe twice for physical damage, and there's no way that's going to add up to the additonal 534 damage needed. Even by using all my health potions I couldn't get in that 534 damage. Perhaps I could have hit him a few times for physical damage after running out of mana before each level-up above. Putting aside the fact that this makes it even more difficult to pull of the level 8 and level 9 level-ups, I'd still never get in 534 points of physical damage. And even if I were able to squeeze in a level up to level 10, that just gives me 112 additional damage (80 for two fireballs, 32 for the difference between 40 per fireball and 36 per fireball multiplied by my eight potions.)
I know people have done it so I know it's possible. But I don't see how it's possible, at least, not the way it's been described to me. I can't make the math work out.
This is to say nothing of the Golem boss I have to deal with afterwards!
I won't bore you by running through the math with an Elf wizard. None of the other races seem plausible so I haven't really checked them in detail--but is there some other race it's best to play as?
fall_ark
13-03-2010, 07:13 PM
Thanks for the advice about how to do the Factory as a Wizard. I'm just not getting it. To illustrate, I'll show you how I can't make the math work out.
Say I explore the whole map and get all the armor down to a single life. I now kill the level 9 armor, getting me to level six. There's nothing left to do, really, but start in on the Meat Man boss, right? So I start. I hit him with two fireballs, for 48 damage total. Using potions at this time would be a waste since they will give me more damge when I am at a higher level. So I go gain a level by killing other monsters. I hit meat man now for 56 additional damage with fireballs. Again, using mana potions would be counterproductive. So I go gain another level. (This doesn't always seem possible, but let's assume in this case that it is.) I now hit meat man for an additional 64 damage through fireballs. Gain another level. (Really practically impossible in my experience, but assuming it's not...) Now hit meat man for another 72 damage. Now, suppose I am a gnome. I've now got potentially 9 mana potions (assuming there was a mana potion shop.) Each of those restores five mana points. So now I can hit meat man for an additional 180 damage. I've now done a total of 420 damage. I can hit him maybe twice for physical damage, and there's no way that's going to add up to the additonal 534 damage needed. Even by using all my health potions I couldn't get in that 534 damage. Perhaps I could have hit him a few times for physical damage after running out of mana before each level-up above. Putting aside the fact that this makes it even more difficult to pull of the level 8 and level 9 level-ups, I'd still never get in 534 points of physical damage. And even if I were able to squeeze in a level up to level 10, that just gives me 112 additional damage (80 for two fireballs, 32 for the difference between 40 per fireball and 36 per fireball multiplied by my eight potions.)
I know people have done it so I know it's possible. But I don't see how it's possible, at least, not the way it's been described to me. I can't make the math work out.
This is to say nothing of the Golem boss I have to deal with afterwards!
I won't bore you by running through the math with an Elf wizard. None of the other races seem plausible so I haven't really checked them in detail--but is there some other race it's best to play as?
Dracul + damage/attack shops would be ideal. Don't rely on magic too much....
Jaradcel
13-03-2010, 07:50 PM
Only two. BludToPowah and Fireball (and at least 13HP, which is trivial compared to the other requirements, since you'll likely find enough medikits or spare glyphs to convert). And it doesn't matter when you find them. Could be the last tile you uncover, as long as it's accessible at level 1.
Still a fairly narrow case, but worth noting anyway. (For the record, I'm going to do my sorcerer runs without this.)
And I don't know about vampires. Haven't unlocked them yet.
I feel like a complete idiot. I've got the 13hp, both the blud and fireball runes annnnddd don't know what to do with them. Fireballs followed by blud only take me so far.... It's annoying me because I've been able to finish and unlock every other class so far save this. Haven't had the pleasure of unlocking new races yet though.
P.S. First post, great game! Got a bunch of friends addicted. Was initially frustrated at trying to defeat the bosses till I figured out a few of the tricks to doing so. *Thumbs up so far*
Edit: Of course, if someone would steer me a hint on how I can actually use the blood mage without using that method and actually winning..... *grins wryly* I figured out that the blood pools can be useful for regenning when running out of tiles to uncover but.... they don't really seem to regen quite enough. Or do they..? *DUN DUN DUUNNN*
dislekcia
13-03-2010, 07:55 PM
@Chippit, DeSangre: That's definitely an order problem. It should go reveal, damage instead of damage, reveal.
@fall_ark: Not sure if vamps doing the health steal on Lemmisi reveal is right. Will talk to Nandrew about it, I'd have guessed that they should only steal when they're close to you, Lemmisi short circuiting that should be a reward for being crafty and using the glyph ;)
@prestige: We've actually got even more plans for the deity system. Note that the interface can still be considered very non-final. Things will definitely move around and change how they're displayed, so we'll keep your suggestions in mind.
Say I explore the whole map and get all the armor down to a single life.
There's your problem right there. Do the math on how much potential regen you're losing out on ;) The factory is a very fine balancing act, you've got to use everything at your disposal to get through it. For the record, I clocked it first time with an Elf Wizard in testing - but it took me half an hour and was really harrowing, caught myself before I made some pretty big mistakes...
Chippit
13-03-2010, 07:58 PM
@Chippit, DeSangre: That's definitely an order problem. It should go reveal, damage instead of damage, reveal.
Yeah, and it's been this way since, well, forever.
mckertis
13-03-2010, 08:13 PM
Wizard/Factory is spoiled on the previous page so if you want, you can look there.
And ? How does that help killing the bosses ? Its pure luck to kill even one, but two ?
Lekon
13-03-2010, 09:26 PM
There's your problem right there. Do the math on how much potential regen you're losing out on ;) The factory is a very fine balancing act, you've got to use everything at your disposal to get through it. For the record, I clocked it first time with an Elf Wizard in testing - but it took me half an hour and was really harrowing, caught myself before I made some pretty big mistakes...
It's a hell of a balancing act honestly. On my win I did halfling wizard, to get the extra potions. I did a lot of 7,8,9's down to zero, then picked up Mysteria as a god. From *there* I went around merrily nuking to bring up my mana and blast the fark out of meatboy. Theeeen... I ate all the glyphs (after using Cydstep once, and hitting Golem for all the fireballs I could with my mana) renounced Mysty. This brought my attack back, and didn't have any mana potions anyways, just heal potions. From there, I was able to beat him.
-Barely.
dislekcia
13-03-2010, 09:46 PM
Remember, Factory with a Wizard is the hardest challenge in the game so far. You have to get good at taking down SMB before you go all-out Wizard ;)
Yeah, and it's been this way since, well, forever.
TBH, I don't think that it's really been noticed here in testing: It's actually rather alien to me to attack something from the other side of the map when it's not fully revealed. Also, it's a more complex issue than you'd think, involves path finding too...
Lekon
13-03-2010, 09:49 PM
Remember, Factory with a Wizard is the hardest challenge in the game so far. You have to get good at taking down SMB before you go all-out Wizard ;)
Gotta disagree with you there. I had 10times the problem with Warlord/Library than wizzie/factory.
Monk/snakes was a snap though.
Chippit
13-03-2010, 10:04 PM
TBH, I don't think that it's really been noticed here in testing: It's actually rather alien to me to attack something from the other side of the map when it's not fully revealed. Also, it's a more complex issue than you'd think, involves path finding too..
Excuses, excuses. :P
Remember, Factory with a Wizard is the hardest challenge in the game so far. You have to get good at taking down SMB before you go all-out Wizard ;)
Also, it's funny, I clocked the factory the first time myself. Human Wizard. Didn't even use a health potion either. I found it the easiest of all the challenges O_o. Yet I've still not been able to beat Assassin Crypt.
Speusippus
13-03-2010, 10:45 PM
there. Do the math on how much potential regen you're losing out on ;)
I was taking the advice given above, where someone said (and IIRC a couple others concurred) that I should explore as much of the map as I can before killing anything when trying this particular matchup. And this seemed to make sense to me, since (unless I am lucky and have APHEELSIC) regen does me no good against bosses anyway, and if I'm using it against high level non-bosses then I'd better not have started fighting the boss yet, in other words, I'd better not be fighting them in order to level up during a boss fight. So basically, regen, it seemed to me, is only good for fighting high level non-bosses prior to the boss fight, which isn't nothing, but (it seemed to me) it isn't much.
Speusippus
13-03-2010, 10:46 PM
I feel like a complete idiot. I've got the 13hp, both the blud and fireball runes annnnddd don't know what to do with them. Fireballs followed by blud only take me so far.... It's annoying me because I've been able to finish and unlock every other class so far save this. Haven't had the pleasure of unlocking new races yet though.
P.S. First post, great game! Got a bunch of friends addicted. Was initially frustrated at trying to defeat the bosses till I figured out a few of the tricks to doing so. *Thumbs up so far*
Edit: Of course, if someone would steer me a hint on how I can actually use the blood mage without using that method and actually winning..... *grins wryly* I figured out that the blood pools can be useful for regenning when running out of tiles to uncover but.... they don't really seem to regen quite enough. Or do they..? *DUN DUN DUUNNN*
I was stumped by those guys' comments for a while as well--until I realized they're not talking about the bloodmage. They're talking about a sorceror using blood-to-power.
Stormy
14-03-2010, 12:01 AM
Hey,
first of all I've to say, that this game is pretty awesome. I really like the unlockable classes. But while playing Half-Dragon in the factory I was bit confused about some weird behavior. I found it pretty useful poking enemies toward the armored guys decreasing their lives. It worked out quite nicely, except the fact that I cannot kill those guys this way. So I always have to do the final blow on my own and possibly taking some damage which wouldnt happen if I used the first strategy.
regards,
Stormy
dislekcia
14-03-2010, 12:18 AM
Hey,
first of all I've to say, that this game is pretty awesome. I really like the unlockable classes. But while playing Half-Dragon in the factory I was bit confused about some weird behavior. I found it pretty useful poking enemies toward the armored guys decreasing their lives. It worked out quite nicely, except the fact that I cannot kill those guys this way. So I always have to do the final blow on my own and possibly taking some damage which wouldnt happen if I used the first strategy.
regards,
Stormy
It's impossible to kill anything using the Half-Dragon's knockback :)
Stormy
14-03-2010, 12:20 AM
Oh.. my bad then.
fall_ark
14-03-2010, 04:38 AM
@fall_ark: Not sure if vamps doing the health steal on Lemmisi reveal is right. Will talk to Nandrew about it, I'd have guessed that they should only steal when they're close to you, Lemmisi short circuiting that should be a reward for being crafty and using the glyph ;)
That would be more than surprisingly handy...
Gotta disagree with you there. I had 10times the problem with Warlord/Library than wizzie/factory.
Monk/snakes was a snap though.
Also, it's funny, I clocked the factory the first time myself. Human Wizard. Didn't even use a health potion either. I found it the easiest of all the challenges O_o. Yet I've still not been able to beat Assassin Crypt.
There's definitely more luck involved in the special challenges. Or perhaps some Gods are just too powerful in some circumstances....Dracul in the factory and Glowing Guardian in the crypt feel a little cheap...and for everything else, there's Mystera Annur and an elf wizard. :P
prestige
14-03-2010, 08:11 AM
While I'm at it, I'd like to make a few more interface suggestions. It would be nice to have hotkeys for potions. I'd also like to be able to use arrow keys to move, which would be helpful when exploring new areas of the map.
Also, I've been working on a modified tileset for the game, and everything seems to be working fine except for replacing the gray brick tile used for the interface panel background. The tile in question appears to be "Wall2.png" but any changes to it do not show up in the game.
Nandrew
14-03-2010, 03:01 PM
Also, I've been working on a modified tileset for the game, and everything seems to be working fine except for replacing the gray brick tile used for the interface panel background. The tile in question appears to be "Wall2.png" but any changes to it do not show up in the game.
Hmm, I think that's something that, for some reason or another, I cancelled on just before releasing the new version. I got it into my head that because that tile is part of the interface (rather than the dungeon itself) and tends to have a lot of text sitting on it, I wanted to make it consistent across all tilesets. I'll let people change that next version. Though the interface will be switching up anyway, so we'll see.
@Chippit: damn you and your order problems. But yeah, I oughtta start looking at a way to fix that <_< Rather unintuitive, I agree.
And thanks for the commented video, DeSangre!
With regards to general issues about balance and tweaking: definitely taking this advice into account. The religion system, for one, looks like it's going to enjoy *another* revamp (trying to move a little further away from extremes / luck) and I want to try see about either buffing or entirely replacing the weaker glyphs: basically want to eliminate cases of "and you'd better hope you get item/god/glyph X" so that skilled players can find multiple ways of dealing with a given situation.
Chippit
14-03-2010, 03:15 PM
@Chippit: damn you and your order problems. But yeah, I oughtta start looking at a way to fix that <_< Rather unintuitive, I agree.
I'm in ur game, makin' ur life difficult. :P
While you're there, spacebar/enter to dismiss OK-message boxes and pick up items from the floor, pls?
Chainsaw
14-03-2010, 03:26 PM
FINALLY unlocked ranked matches after a week of trying to beat a level with Bloodmage. Then figured out I could take out the boss at level 5 with Sanguine. <3
Grumpf
15-03-2010, 12:35 AM
I had the negative experience bug too.
I was playing Paladin in the Crypt, I'm 100% sure I was wearing the CYDSTEPP rune, it was on (= I was protected).
I was level 2 or 3, had a lot of +attack bonuses (+40%?) , and was about to kill a level 4 or 5 undead (I had to do a hit and run to regen HP once).
My last hit killed it, the rune saved me, and I levelled. My experience went to -7 (minus 7). I killed a little monster afterwards and it went to -11.
Pumpkinburger
15-03-2010, 12:45 AM
My boyfriend has asked me to post the modified lady hero tiles I made because he thinks they're awesome. You can save the images and just paste them into a copy of the basic tileset, and rename the folder however you'd like.
In order of appearance: witch, rogue, nurse, valkyrie.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroWizard.pnghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroThief.pnghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroPriest.pnghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroBase.png
And a Nun variant for those who don't like the nurse:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroPriest-2.png
Almost
15-03-2010, 01:03 AM
Thanks for the advice about how to do the Factory as a Wizard. I'm just not getting it. To illustrate, I'll show you how I can't make the math work out.
Don't be so dependant on magic. Halpmeh is probably a considerably more useful glyph than burndayrayz for taking on super meatman and the iron man. Meat man does so little damage (about 40) that if you can heal it very easily. Also, even if you don't find poison, it's possible to win a battle of attrition. If you intend to convert every 2 points of mana to 3*your level points of health, every 2 tiles is 5*your level in healing, and you SHOULD have more attack than super meat man, meaning you have the advantage.
As far as fireball beating a level 9 is concerned, exploring the whole map is a bad idea. I generally follow the logic at the start of fireballing the highest level animated armour that I can see, and whenever I find a higher level than switch to tarrgeting it instead of the one you were targeting. This way you're not wasting experience as much because as well as attacking the highest level as soon as you find it, you've weakened some of the others. Also, it's ok yo kill a level 8 instead of a level 9.
If you want to do damage as a wizard, you want to be human. Gnome might work decently, but I still think human would be best.
Taurog is ok, but he limits you. Dracul is very effective in this situation, as you can lifesteal a lot of the damage you're taking, reducing the amount of healing necessary.
fall_ark
15-03-2010, 05:02 AM
My boyfriend has asked me to post the modified lady hero tiles I made because he thinks they're awesome. You can save the images and just paste them into a copy of the basic tileset, and rename the folder however you'd like.
In order of appearance: witch, rogue, nurse, valkyrie.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroWizard.pnghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroThief.pnghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroPriest.pnghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroBase.png
And a Nun variant for those who don't like the nurse:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroPriest-2.png
Marvellous! Love how the nurse changes to the nun with just some colouring...
I think this could and should be in a future release :P
iceblademush
15-03-2010, 07:00 AM
My boyfriend has asked me to post the modified lady hero tiles I made because he thinks they're awesome. You can save the images and just paste them into a copy of the basic tileset, and rename the folder however you'd like.
In order of appearance: witch, rogue, nurse, valkyrie.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroWizard.pnghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroThief.pnghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroPriest.pnghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroBase.png
And a Nun variant for those who don't like the nurse:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a383/Dragonchilde13/HeroPriest-2.png
Awesome! :) Did you manage to do any of the tiles too?
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