View Full Version : The South African Game Development Scene: Past, Present, and Future
FuzzYspo0N
04-08-2009, 01:01 PM
Interesting read here,
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4098/the_south_african_game_development_.php
Nandrew
04-08-2009, 01:31 PM
I feel distinctly 1-upp'd here!
A very mature and thorough writeup. This one's going into the Dev.Mag newslinks.
Fruzz
04-08-2009, 02:46 PM
Wow, this is an amazing insight into the SA games dev scene. My dream would be to get a few years games dev experience over here in the UK and then move back to SA if there is a viable games job market. Its true what those guys say in the article SA will always be home.
AndrewJ
04-08-2009, 02:58 PM
Thanks for the link. I really, really enjoyed the read.
Azimuth
04-08-2009, 03:31 PM
At the risk of sounding like a terminal pessimist, I can't help thinking that the local game dev scene is all talk and nothing else. Sure, some people are working on interesting projects ... that go nowhere. Myself included, of course. I'm quite interested in moving into game design myself, but I'd much sooner look for employment overseas than locally. Local places like Luma Arcade are just making ****ty games that might (might) demonstrate some technical ability, but entirely lack any sort of ingenuity. Third-rate racing games? No thanks.
This article is oozing positivity and enthusiasm all over the carpets, with little regard for the reality - that the local game dev scene is actually kinda dismal.
Nandrew
04-08-2009, 04:03 PM
I feel this perspective is a failing on Dev.Mag's part to convey the work that is being done in and around South Africa, particularly if people are *still* referring to Mini #37 as Luma Arcade's spotlight product.
If there's a sentiment that South African game development is nothing but talk, then I guess the onus is on the community to invalidate that theory.
I'll work harder.
TBH, the only game I've seen by a SA developer that I'd actually give money for is that RPG Chippit and Azi made... but I'm a RPG***, so meh...
It might be more talk than action, but the game.dev guys are trying at least...
dislekcia
04-08-2009, 04:07 PM
At the risk of sounding like a terminal pessimist, I can't help thinking that the local game dev scene is all talk and nothing else. Sure, some people are working on interesting projects ... that go nowhere. Myself included, of course. I'm quite interested in moving into game design myself, but I'd much sooner look for employment overseas than locally. Local places like Luma Arcade are just making ****ty games that might (might) demonstrate some technical ability, but entirely lack any sort of ingenuity. Third-rate racing games? No thanks.
This article is oozing positivity and enthusiasm all over the carpets, with little regard for the reality - that the local game dev scene is actually kinda dismal.
I think I get where you're coming from here. I can totally understand rating the games produced locally against international projects, the hard truth there is that there are only certain markets where we CAN compete. A web racing game is a niche, sure it doesn't require as much as a hardcore racing game on console, but it's still a niche that can (and is, having played it) fun. I think they guys at Luma know that they need to move towards games that grab players more, Marble Blast Mobile is a huge step in the right direction and personally I really hope it sells tons because it's a GOOD iPhone game - a space where we can compete with the limited resources available locally (actually, I'd argue that Luma really one-upped the "SA expectation" level there, I didn't think we had a team that could produce what they did in the time they had).
In the end, this whole thing comes down to money. There really isn't much of it available locally for game development (at the risk of sounding like some people who go on about Venture Capital a little too much). Investors are starting to understand what's possible and that's good - but that wouldn't be happening if it weren't for us hobos trying to make things to the best of our ability and resources.
What we need is a success story. A true rags to riches sort of tale that echos the indie ethos of living off old boots until you get the game you dreamed of making out there and people started paying you more money than you could count for it. We need an Introversion, a 2D-Boy, heck even a Jonathan Blow would work.
You know that I want to give you and Chippit the chance to make UQ be that game... Like I said, it comes down to money. Even if it means Aeq and I end up busting our balls making cellphone games for advertisers so that we can afford to actually PAY developers and artists to make cool stuff. That's QCF's boundary that we're trying to push: Simply earning a living making games in SA is hard enough. Making enough of a living to afford a team that can work on their own IP and do it right? That's a dream worth having.
Why do you think I care so much about the cool game concepts that come out of this place? Because I want to be able to give these devs a hand up so they can have 6 months to turn that idea into the next Narbacular Drop. It would be nice not to starve while doing so ;)
dislekcia
04-08-2009, 04:15 PM
In retrospect, that's the model that QCF is gunning for: Indie success via authorship.
Luma has a different model in mind and it's working, they've successfully gotten overseas publishers to take them seriously (no mean feat for an SA studio) and they're growing via international business. Sure, it starts small, but knowing the people working there, they won't stop until they're doing AAA games and taking over the world. And I'd argue Luma has never gone back and done something smaller just to pay the bills - it's always a path towards improvement for them.
I-Imagine has yet another business model right now: Downloadable games that mass markets want, banking on Dan Wager's considerable connections to give them access to XBLA and similar services.
Until someone makes a few million and rents a seat in a shuttle, not many people are going to care though...
glCoolHandf
04-08-2009, 08:34 PM
Thanks for this great link ...
I think there is enough of all the required ingreadients to make a 'rags to riches' story; but what is lacking is a great idea ... there has been games, just not the right mix to make it a huge success story ... remember "abe's oddysee"; when all thought that 2D games is dead, it came along, it WILL be the same with the sa game development scene ...
All of us have idees, any one of these ideas can be the silver bullet, or my lead to it ... we just need to keep *doing* what we love to do, the rest will follow, eventually ... like all good things
Gazza_N
05-08-2009, 08:22 AM
I disagree on that, glCoolHandf. We've seen an absolute glut of fresh, original, exciting, fun ideas and prototypes in this very forum. The community is filled to bursting with good ideas. The most pressing problem is getting those ideas built up to a standard that people will take notice of. That takes time and money. That's what's lacking.
glCoolHandf
05-08-2009, 10:55 AM
Well, I will still behind what I said; in that only after reasonable success in a new field of endeavor will investment follow.
We can look at some of the great fortunes generated from small or no investment from outside, what was invested was the time and money of the person responsible for the eventual “market” being created.
Ideas and small projects are ‘dime a dozen’, so to ask a person / organization to invest money in a idea You believe in without some sort of proof of return (Measurable market or previous success), dream on … What you need to do is invest your time and money in the endeavor and money will follow… but the point is proof comes first
Nowadays people are to dependant on money and salaries, they complain about the lack on outside support while they themselves do not invest any more time and money in their own ideas to a point of being a **done**, that last 10% of any project is the hardest and that is the point that people will take notice, that's life!
ps.
This is a very interesting discussion and one that needs to be discussed in depth …
Fengol
05-08-2009, 11:16 AM
I have to second Gazza_N; it's the sound, art assets and level content which all require man-hours that we need to go big which unfortunately is costly. There are awesome ideas in abundance but they must be implemented part-time after school or work and with limited toolsets and tool knowledge.
This is why I'm so excited to see things like XNA mature and lower the entry barrier for developers and the availability of free tools like Blender and Autodesk Softimage Mod Tool become available.
glCoolHandf
05-08-2009, 12:20 PM
I see I am going to have a up hill battle with my argument, but I will not redirect my argument, I am also struggling with resources in my own developments, and I am quite ambitions with my current developments, resource wise, and I am quite aware(pain fully aware) of the shortage in man hours …
But realistically I can not expect the ‘business people’ to provide me, the developer with a support crew to develop games, although I will like that very much, they do not have to pay me a salary only the royalties from sales, if the project fails, I will go without anything… But even as noble as that sounds, does not work that way.
On the flipside I cannot now say because there is no money so no future in it; it only shows the potential for the right product at the right time, and I believe that that product will come from the love and believe in a project rather than deep pockets.
The other part is to get a team that is as dedicated as you and that believes as much as you in a project, to contribute more than just the clock hours, are next to impossible.
I have to admit that money will help the situation, but, the silver bullet will be blood, sweat and tears!
Steve Jobs could still be complaining about the lack of capital in his industry (when he started), but he chose to dream and just do it! We need that mentality in our upcoming game industry players…
If there is one thing that the past have shown us is that the dream and believe (faith if you will) is stronger than the realistic situation.
onona
05-08-2009, 12:38 PM
If there is one thing that the past has shown us it'ss that the dream and belief (faith if you will) is stronger than the realistic situation it's that passion doesn't pay the bills.
;-)
Seriously though, I tend to side with my sister on this one. Reading through that article, and also through this thread, a lot of it comes across as all talk. I mean seriously, blaming Telkom in that article? Geographical location? Lamenting the loss of one or two individuals who left for greener pastures? That's no excuse. It's like people keep coming up with all these other reasons as to why their products aren't hitting the big time, instead of considering that maybe, just maybe, the product they're developing isn't actually all that great. Wow, racing games and what looks like a lame Diablo clone. Yeah, the gaming consumer world sits on tenterhooks waiting for another of these types of titles.
I also find the "SOUTH AFRICA" sentiment in that article nauseating. This is a global market. Yes, I understand that some people don't want to move abroad for various reasons, and that's fine. But if you're struggling to find suitable people to develop games in SA, then why not look further afield for talent? Bring them in. There's nothing stopping you. I bet a lot of the staff working in game developer studios across the States are not American. Why this need for national purity? Maybe I'm reading too much into what was said in the article, but it kinda came across as insular, in all the wrong ways.
All this bullsh!t corporate talk does nothing but roll my eyes back. Business models, blah blah. Cut the sh!t and make some f@cking games already. All this verbal masturbation comes across as nothing more than hot air masking a whole lot of nothing.
Korax
05-08-2009, 12:53 PM
Oliver will very likely publish the article on his Journal on SAGD at some point.
Theres also follow-ups on the way.
@Azimuth: Maybe a bit too harshly put.
@glCoolHandf: I couldn't have put it any better. You've spoken my mind.
The thing is, you can have all the talent and prototypes in the world. If you don't have a means to get or generate money, you will find yourself at the starting blocks still. Personally I think two ways one can go is either license a commercial engine (or a free one *shrug*) or rather get into XNA if C++/DirectX is proving too difficult or heavy on time/skill. Its very possible to build something stunning out of nothing using XNA and make something off it.
I only started with XNA a few months ago, March to be exact, even HLSL was new to me. Initially I was frustrated with the lack of total control since I'm very used to C/OpenGL. Eventually I got what XNA is about and sofar it seems to work out well.
An example of what I've done with XNA (my first attempt) can be seen here:
http://www.sagamedev.com/developerjournal_post.aspx?journalid=28
As for 2D, it can work. Especially in the current conditions we find ourselves in here in South Africa. Its better to make something do-able and put quality time in that and see what happens when you start marketting it. It was a pretty difficult decision to move away from 3D, especially since my previous project came together so well, and what glCoolHandf stated regarding 2D.
Eventually I want to move onto using idTech4 (once it goes GPL), thats where I want to be, but you need talent (and money) to produce something worth playing on that engine. Heck, its difficult even to slam a FPS together of the calibre of Quake1, even with the full engine source code in-hand.
Azimuth
05-08-2009, 12:56 PM
@Azimuth: Maybe a bit too harshly put.
Don't be such a crybaby. It won't get you anywhere. How's that Quake 2 mod going, anyway?
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 01:58 PM
Wow. There are a lot of misconceptions in this thread all of a sudden.
The first batch centers around the perceived lack of commercial success in the SA games industry... I don't really know how to deal with this apart from throwing facts and context around a bit. When you look at a game, you always have to consider why it was built and what it was intended to do. Onona, Azi, I'm not sure which racing game you're talking about, so I'll go in order:
Chase did well. One of the reviews (Luke will be able to confirm who, exactly) went so far as to say "This is the game you were looking for when you bought Stuntman" - Having played it on the original Xbox, it did some really cool things with set pieces and settings that in many ways were industry firsts, especially in a driving game. Chase's success let I-Imagine move into huge offices with friggin secret entrance passages. In many ways, that was the dream... The dream fell over when continued publishing agreements proved hard to get. In many ways Final Armada was a much more robust idea that had to be cut down to a bargain bin game just to "get it out the door" once a publisher was found. How many times have we heard that in the industry? Locally - once. That's a problem.
Mini#37 was built for a purpose, not to sell. Commissioned games tend to be on super tight schedules and often have specialist requirements that make building them trickier for a number of reasons. I'm not defending perceived poor quality, I'm simply saying the game did exactly what it was intended to do: Wow people at Mini stores across the country, hence the racing seats and driving wheels that the game was demoed on - that wasn't flair for rAge, that was how the game went out! Luma made money off Mini#37, from a client. Company success!
Rev (I think that's still what it's called at the moment) was also a commissioned title. This time from GarageGames for their Instant Action service. It needed a racing game, Luma had recently made one in Torque, a deal was signed. Again, the game isn't sold, it's meant to be played in a web browser. I challenge you to find a browser-based game that looks as good. The Luma team learned a LOT from Mini#37 and still made money while doing so. They then took that learning and made MORE money AND a better game. I'm not seeing the downside here...
Yes, neither of Luma's racing games compete with Forza or GT5. They're not supposed to. It's just that simple.
Other games coming out of SA are failures for a bunch of reasons. Mainly bad marketing and a lack of experience. The Tainted (which I picked up at the Rand Show a few years back for R35) didn't earn money because it wasn't visible and it was delayed many times before release due to bad luck, mostly. It would have preceeded Diablo 2 by a few years had it not been the victim of a simple lack of experience. Unfortunately, people didn't seem to learn from that - or if they did, we're not seeing the application of that learning to generate money. Contrast that with what Luma and I-Imagine are doing... Oh, right, I-Imagine are about to release an XBLA game, not much is known about it, but XBLA is wonderfully visible and hopefully it sells well. I'd be keen to see Azi's review of the game when we know exactly what it is! ;) Actually, I'd be keen to see Azi's review of Luma's Marble Blast Mobile for iPhone too.
I'm not singling Azi out here, I'm actually lauding her realism. We need this perspective to be able to succeed internationally. In the end, no matter how many locals and friends we wow with our stuff, that doesn't mean squat if people aren't buying it. Those customers have access to EVERY OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET. Azi's point of view is exactly right: We have to up our game to make money the same way other studios do. That's the reality of it. Luma have a really good angle on getting to the point where they have the skills and the experience to do just that. I hope I-Imagine proves that they haven't lost their experience despite shutting down for a while. I know that QCF doesn't have that level of experience yet, we're relying on having really good ideas and gameplay (and sure, maybe getting away with a little bit of "it's indie, you can excuse a few things"). SpaceHack looks very different in my head.
The second batch of misconceptions is around money, hard work and the power of ideas.
Let me break it down for everyone: You have to eat. Making games is ALWAYS going to be hard work. My workload has steadily gone up since starting QCF. You do not want to know the hours that Flint and co over at I-Imagine have been pulling recently. Ask Fuzzy about his workload at Luma... My point is this: Hard work and games are a given.
On the flipside, Azi and Onona's points are valid: Polishing a turd still leaves you with a turd. You do not want to sink resources and time into something that will not give you a return, especially when that return dictates if you can afford rent and food. Aeq and I are only just starting to get out of living hand to mouth after 2 years of QCF's existence... There's a reason Introversion sold everything they had before Darwinia came out.
Sure, you have to have passion in your job and your skills, you have to believe that what you're working on day and night will be a success. But if you're trying to make a living out of building games, you have to be SURE that it's going to work. That takes work. More work. Of a kind that you simply don't get while doing the development part of games. That's the experience that Luma and I-Imagine have, that Korax and glCoolHandf don't have, that I'm learning.
Mathstermind worked, it paid for us to work on SpaceHack. Unfortunately it was also a failure because it never got sold - it never earned any revenue. To this day there are still only about 20 people that have played a game that cost nearly R200k to make. What? How does something like that happen? Simple inexperience. Our current cellphone game project has been approached by wiser, skinnier people: We don't expect it to make revenue due to the context it's in, so our charging structure for the client is different, we know exactly what it's for and why we're building it - just like we did with MathsterMind - except this time we know what that means.
It's that knowledge that we need in the SA game industry. You can have as many great ideas as you want, but if you don't know how to take those to market and earn a living off them, you're still starving. You can work as hard as you want, but if you're not consciously amassing experience towards releasing games that earn you money, you're still starving.
There's a big difference between blaming failure on other people or circumstances and stepping up to failure to make sure you learn as much as you can from it. I've spent the last YEAR talking to investors, learning how that world works. Not that I understand it fully, but I know a lot more than I did before. VC's don't understand our industry? Bank managers don't get digital delivery? Look for angels. They're out there and it's sure as hell not their job to find you.
So let me TL;DR that for everyone:
Making games for a living is hard. It's also fun if you're that kind of person. There's much more to games than code, shut up about that already.
Azi: Valid viewpoint. We need that thinking. Be sure you have the context though.
Onona: Boundless positivism is a risk here, the people who start businesses do have to be slightly crazy that way. But positivism isn't experience. We have to get more of that the hard way, positivism stops you going crazy while that's happening. (I have no idea why the article focused on those 2 people leaving SA, poor wording, plus loads of people left I-Imagine over the years to go overseas)
Korax, glCoolHandf: Make a damn game already. That is all. You're behind on experience.
Fengol, Gazza, Nandrew, etc: You've made games. Now it's time to get the experience you need to sell them. Be prepared for more work. If we can help, we will.
P.S. I love how this discussion and the article on Gama made Nandrew focus a lot of energy on learning to promote stuff and get the word out. That's a brilliant skill that we need locally.
onona
05-08-2009, 02:14 PM
That's all well and good Dis, but how is the insular attitude that kept cropping up in that article helping things? You keep bringing up inexperience, and I totally agree with you on this. But why don't people realise that their own inexperience is going to cause an issue? If someone has an idea for a game, then they need the right people to help them with it. I sense a lot of impatience amongst people in that article, this need to go and do it all on their own instead of bringing in experienced people from abroad who've been in this game (no pun intended) for years, and know how to get sh!t done. In a volatile market like the gaming industry, you can't afford to waste time floundering around if you don't know the industry inside out.
So many of these guys are so determined to do things their way, that they're skipping out the entire getting experience thing. Surely, if you want to make games, then the best way to prepare yourself is to go abroad, work for a decade or so in some big studios, network with people, learn the ropes thoroughly, and then do you own thing? I could be wrong, but I get a strong sense that people get carried away with their egos and want all the glory for themselves, instead of going the more humbling route of working your way up the chain, thereby creating a solid industry foundation for yourself. Sure, the issue of money and all that is another factor to consider, but this inexperience thing is so easy to solve.
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 02:40 PM
That's all well and good Dis, but how is the insular attitude that kept cropping up in that article helping things? You keep bringing up inexperience, and I totally agree with you on this. But why don't people realise that their own inexperience is going to cause an issue? If someone has an idea for a game, then they need the right people to help them with it. I sense a lot of impatience amongst people in that article, this need to go and do it all on their own instead of bringing in experienced people from abroad who've been in this game (no pun intended) for years, and know how to get sh!t done. In a volatile market like the gaming industry, you can't afford to waste time floundering around if you don't know the industry inside out.
To be dead honest, I think the insular attitude is something that carries over from SAGD. There's certainly never been an insular perspective from my side... After all, everyone here rabidly reads as much content as we can about game development from the people doing it - all overseas. There's also an active search for experience from overseas: I-Imagine was started by a South African who went to Digipen. Luke is an awesome guy who I listen to in rapt attention who just happens to know tons of stuff AND be from Canada. Luma has had game designers come over from the US to work with them on projects. I-Imagine had Noah Falstein come to SA for a while. We're working with Jane McGonigal and Avantgame on one of our current projects.
The biggest issue with bringing experience over is cost. It's a bit chicken and egg, to be honest. What I'd really love is to bring over some experienced artists to work with, that would be amazing.
So many of these guys are so determined to do things their way, that they're skipping out the entire getting experience thing. Surely, if you want to make games, then the best way to prepare yourself is to go abroad, work for a decade or so in some big studios, network with people, learn the ropes thoroughly, and then do you own thing? I could be wrong, but I get a strong sense that people get carried away with their egos and want all the glory for themselves, instead of going the more humbling route of working your way up the chain, thereby creating a solid industry foundation for yourself. Sure, the issue of money and all that is another factor to consider, but this inexperience thing is so easy to solve.
Yes and no. While there's a lot of information out there for game developers and people who are interested, there's also a lot of stuff about how the international industry may not be the best way to do things. After all, if the way to do things was to go overseas, earn your chops and start your own company, we'd have more than just 1 person who had done it. Dan Wagner started I-Imagine and I know that at least 25 people (very possibly a whole lot more) left I-I to go work in the overseas industry once they'd been trained up. So far we hear nothing from any of them.
There's a lot of noise about the indie side of game development and how anyone can make games. That's true. I can tell you right now that if PayPal worked locally, we'd already have a huge indie scene. There being extra barriers in the way of earning money making games really doesn't help. We do know that going into the industry is not the way to become a game designer: It's simple economics, there are only a few designer positions available and while the churn rate on junior employees is high, designers and managers don't leave the industry. We've seen this time and again when people jump from company to company. There are quite a few articles about this on GameCareerGuide.com - there are equally many questioning the shape of the industry internationally and wondering what could be different.
I think you might call me an idealist (which is totally cool with me), but when I say "the SA games industry" I see a different beast to what the international traditional industry looks like. I'd be happy with an industry of indies and a reputation for that, just like eastern bloc countries have a reputation for programming trickery and leet hax. So from my side, I'm trying to build that... I don't want the experience that says "Work your team to death" or "It's ok, let's just put this thing out there and earn some money". I'd rather have Kyle Gabler, Derek Yu, Mark Morris or Daniel Cook help us with experience. The nice thing is that they all do already, via the web. It's up to us to figure out how to apply what we learn that way locally, because like it or not, situations and resources are different. Otherwise you'd be working in a local effects house, after all ;)
onona
05-08-2009, 02:58 PM
To be dead honest, I think the insular attitude is something that carries over from SAGD. There's certainly never been an insular perspective from my side... After all, everyone here rabidly reads as much content as we can about game development from the people doing it - all overseas.
I was just really commenting on the article itself. At one point in the article, they made mention of how many people on a certain team were South African. I don't see why that's relevant. Individual nationalism makes no sense in an industry like this. The whole article kinda had that flavour and I think it tainted it somewhat.
I know that at least 25 people (very possibly a whole lot more) left I-I to go work in the overseas industry once they'd been trained up. So far we hear nothing from any of them.
I was meaning something more along the lines of those who wish to build something in SA spreading their wings, learning stuff, and then returning, if they're so determined to do something in SA itself. Of course there will be those who leave and don't return (as such an individual myself this isn't lost on me), but I'm talking about the ones who, for whatever reason - be it their desire to be with their families or whatever - are determined to pursue their gaming ambitions on South African soil.
I can tell you right now that if PayPal worked locally, we'd already have a huge indie scene.
You've lost me here. Why is PayPal so important? Surely a professional person (because an indie is still a professional person) would have a proper company bank account set up to receive and make international payments? Since that, after all, is the correct way to go about business. I know that I, for one, won't do business with anyone using PayPal. It comes off as extremely unprofessional.
We do know that going into the industry is not the way to become a game designer
You know as well as I do that it takes many types to make a game. That's a problem I see here: everyone in that article seems to want to be the designer. I am sure there are loads of other people - programmers, artists, producers, etc - in SA who could gain experience abroad and then return with those experiences and share what they've learned with the rest. Then everyone benefits. In fact, producers are probably amongst the most important in terms of having a wealth of experience and a huge network. It's not just about the designers here. Which brings me back to my earlier remark about glory-seeking without the footwork. It's all just big ideas without the foundation to back it up.
Otherwise you'd be working in a local effects house, after all ;)
My own goal was always to leave SA. I did my time in the local holes and it almost drove me to quit my career entirely. For all the same bullsh!t as what's happening the game scene: inexperienced people who don't know how to get stuff done. It causes burnouts, it creates terrible working environments and poor work ethics. However, my own perspective is somewhat different as I am a pipeline grunt, a cog in the wheel, and always will be, as I have no ambitions of owning my own business or doing my own thing. My career is there to support my life, it's not my life itself. But now I am straying off topic.
Freekybevis
05-08-2009, 03:17 PM
wow. i love ego wars. any1 want to have an arm wrestle with me:)? im nt throwing any names because this goes against the point.
this is actually quite a lol how ppl choose to point fingers and grow nag forums, instead of grow the community as a whole. i found the article interesting point of view.
it seems to me like there is only 1 or 2 people in this thread that kw what they are talking about. all i hear is luma and marble blast (and aside from them, then everyone spits bs about how the industry is dead). there is **** loads going on in the industry here and tons of people making a good living on game dev in south africa besides the "official" "game" companies. i kw guys who have current tenders with disney interactive, etc. myself included.
guys making games that are best sellers on xbox360 community games.
and btw there have been more than one article writen about how telkom doesnt help the sa game industry. americans who come here and say that this countries backbone is built on sms's and nt ideal for game dev, cap, and all those things come into the picture.
i could write an essay on everything i didnt agree on here, but i actually seriously dnt have the time lol.
peace out and happy deving... good read btw on the article.
-Jarred
onona
05-08-2009, 03:23 PM
For the love of all that is holy Freekybevis, if you want to participate in a discussion, make a goddamned effort with your posts. I had to read it three times to understand what the hell you're saying, and I'm still not entirely clear on what your main point is.
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 03:27 PM
I was meaning something more along the lines of those who wish to build something in SA spreading their wings, learning stuff, and then returning, if they're so determined to do something in SA itself. Of course there will be those who leave and don't return (as such an individual myself this isn't lost on me), but I'm talking about the ones who, for whatever reason - be it their desire to be with their families or whatever - are determined to pursue their gaming ambitions on South African soil.
True, this is something that should be happening. But there's the slight problem that working in a huge studio is very different to working in a small team. We don't have huge studios in SA (yet - maybe) so you'd have to decide to go overseas and work for an indie or small startup studio to really get the experience that would help you in SA at the moment. For whatever reason, this isn't how people think... I blame school, mostly. But the realities of immigration and visa issues are probably too tiresome for a small company to deal with. I know I wouldn't go through the hassle of acquiring a greencard for someone unless I was hiring the second coming of Chris Delay himself.
I do think that when a few large studios grow in SA, you'll see them hiring expats with the lure of familiar living conditions to offset less pay. For me the simple reality is that our living costs are phenomenally cheaper in SA, which means that as an indie targeting the international market, our break-even points and thus required investment are much lower. Which is awesome :)
You've lost me here. Why is PayPal so important? Surely a professional person (because an indie is still a professional person) would have a proper company bank account set up to receive and make international payments? Since that, after all, is the correct way to go about business. I know that I, for one, won't do business with anyone using PayPal. It comes off as extremely unprofessional.
I think you're too focused on the big studio model. Indie games are much more achievable and I daresay sustainable in SA at the moment... The typical indie model goes something like this: Build game; Make website; Put PayPal button on website; Promote game; Profit.
PayPal isn't a substitute for a bank account, it's a customer-facing payment mechanism. None of the local indies that have attempted to sell games using wire transfers (yes, this has actually happened) or EFTs have survived. Yet internationally we see indies surviving off PayPal and similar systems all the time, most recently in the Flash games arena. 5 years ago, we would have been able to make reasonable livings doing that, possibly even kickstarting the big studios that you're thinking about.
To put it in perspective: The goal is to handle credit card payments to monetise an international market, just like hordes of other indies do internationally, right? My company, QCF, is still not eligible for a merchant account. I need a merchant account, which costs some retarded amount per month, just to handle credit card transactions. Via swipe machine. Only after getting enough swipe machine transactions, can I apply for an internet validation account. I am provided this by another company which partners with the bank. It takes some ludicrous percentage of my transactions AND charges me per month for this honor. The bank takes a "hidden" 10-6% of these transactions as well, for grins. Despite knowing loads of internet entrepreneurs, I know of nobody who uses the established monetisation methods as an SA business. You don't accept credit cards if you're a South African e-business... I've spoken to government about this. Banks don't understand. If my business model relied on credit cards on the web, I'd be screwed (indeed I was for several years, until contracting picked up).
You know as well as I do that it takes many types to make a game. That's a problem I see here: everyone in that article seems to want to be the designer. I am sure there are loads of other people - programmers, artists, producers, etc - in SA who could gain experience abroad and then return with those experiences and share what they've learned with the rest. Then everyone benefits. In fact, producers are probably amongst the most important in terms of having a wealth of experience and a huge network. It's not just about the designers here. Which brings me back to my earlier remark about glory-seeking without the footwork. It's all just big ideas without the foundation to back it up.
Again, we're looking more at the indie space than the full-blown mega studio here. 4 people can make a game. Even at Luma (which has grown like crazy) they don't have huge teams working on any one project at a time, there are 14 people there now (Luke, Fuzzy?) dedicated to the games side. That's still indie. Very indie.
My own goal was always to leave SA. I did my time in the local holes and it almost drove me to quit my career entirely. For all the same bullsh!t as what's happening the game scene: inexperienced people who don't know how to get stuff done. It causes burnouts, it creates terrible working environments and poor work ethics. However, my own perspective is somewhat different as I am a pipeline grunt, a cog in the wheel, and always will be, as I have no ambitions of owning my own business or doing my own thing. My career is there to support my life, it's not my life itself. But now I am straying off topic.
Folks. Strokes. You know the drill. I do what I love doing, if I wasn't getting paid for this I'd make games anyway.
Fengol
05-08-2009, 03:28 PM
Onona, on the PayPal thing; it's very expensive to activate accepting credit cards online in South Africa. The banks charge quite a large monthly fee for the service which, if you're only doing occasional sales for small amounts isn't worth it. With that gone other alternatives are limiting, for example doing bank deposits limits you to a South African audience, international buyers would have to wire money which is a lot of effort for a small indie game.
I think your exposure to PayPal has probably only been through seeing it on sites which accept donations but I can assure you it's far from unprofessional.
Korax
05-08-2009, 03:32 PM
To be dead honest, I think the insular attitude is something that carries over from SAGD.
I love how u resort to building your own ego and game.dev before u try and grow the sa development community as a whole.
You've lost me here. Why is PayPal so important? Surely a professional person (because an indie is still a professional person) would have a proper company bank account set up to receive and make international payments? Since that, after all, is the correct way to go about business. I know that I, for one, won't do business with anyone using PayPal. It comes off as extremely unprofessional.
We can process Credit Cards, its the right way to go if you are serious. Oops, you need money too, or are you learning that too?
I've posted a few times on this forum, in a positive fasion, but currently I don't see the point, kinda reminds me of SAGD pre-2006. The fact is I don't HAVE to post here.
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 03:37 PM
it seems to me like there is only 1 or 2 people in this thread that kw what they are talking about. all i hear is luma and marble blast (and aside from them, then everyone spits bs about how the industry is dead). there is **** loads going on in the industry here and tons of people making a good living on game dev in south africa besides the "official" "game" companies. i kw guys who have current tenders with disney interactive, etc. myself included.
guys making games that are best sellers on xbox360 community games.
and btw there have been more than one article writen about how telkom doesnt help the sa game industry. americans who come here and say that this countries backbone is built on sms's and nt ideal for game dev, cap, and all those things come into the picture.
i could write an essay on everything i didnt agree on here, but i actually seriously dnt have the time lol.
peace out and happy deving... good read btw on the article.
-Jarred
1. I don't think there are any egos on display here. Simply debate and questions.
2. Point el tendering people towards the forums to say hi please! That would be rad. Also, who's working on XNA 360 stuff and why aren't they talking? AFAIK there haven't been any releases on XBIG so far from SA, mainly because we're working on our own XBIG releases ;) Seriously, I'd love to talk to fellow devs about the problems of raising awareness for XBIG and marketing, etc. Joining forces makes a lot of sense there...
It's sort of pointless to go "Oh, there's all this other stuff going on that you people don't know about!" when there's no information around ABOUT this stuff, so get people together get more info out there. That's something we're not too good at, as a community in general.
3. It might be a good idea to link to these articles for Onona's edification, maybe?
4. What don't you agree with? Lay it out instead of deciding that random egos are on display and I'm pretty sure it'd be a good discussion. I know that all I'm trying to do is make games, make a living and - if I can - help make an industry. Nobody's going to do that alone.
onona
05-08-2009, 03:41 PM
True, this is something that should be happening. But there's the slight problem that working in a huge studio is very different to working in a small team. We don't have huge studios in SA (yet - maybe) so you'd have to decide to go overseas and work for an indie or small startup studio to really get the experience that would help you in SA at the moment.
On this point, I tend to disagree with you. I think any experience is good experience, and could help in the future. Even if just for the sake of experiencing how other teams deal with tasks; you can still take many principles of production and apply them to a smaller team. The industry I am in is very similar to game development in many ways, and having experienced small, mid and large studios, there are many, many similarities between the different size setups. I don't see why it would be much different in game dev. Of course, there are differences between the different size studios too, but my point that any experience is good remains.
I do think that when a few large studios grow in SA, you'll see them hiring expats with the lure of familiar living conditions to offset less pay. For me the simple reality is that our living costs are phenomenally cheaper in SA, which means that as an indie targeting the international market, our break-even points and thus required investment are much lower. Which is awesome :)
That's true and it would stand to benefit you a lot, and from that perspective I can see why some would choose to build up their development in a country like SA.
On the whole PayPal subject (I won't quote that huge block of text), I'll admit I was unaware of the huge costs involved in merchant bank accounts. However, as a consumer myself, I'll admit that I'd personally never deal with a merchant who used PayPal. It's not really about being elitist, it's just out of wary consumer paranoia.
Anyway, this thread looks like it's on the brink of turning into some personal ****-slapping, chest-beating fest due to some recent posts from others, so I'm backing out now before it gets ugly.
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 03:42 PM
I love how u resort to building your own ego and game.dev before u try and grow the sa development community as a whole.
We can process Credit Cards, its the right way to go if you are serious. Oops, you need money too.
Instead of attacking posters, why not join the discussion reasonably?
SAGD being insular is my opinion, I'm perfectly happy with changing my opinions in the face of reasonable evidence.
I warn you that so far this debate has been civil and awesome. I will delete posts that attack others for no reason or threaten to derail this nice chat into a flame war :)
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 03:55 PM
On this point, I tend to disagree with you. I think any experience is good experience, and could help in the future. Even if just for the sake of experiencing how other teams deal with tasks; you can still take many principles of production and apply them to a smaller team. The industry I am in is very similar to game development in many ways, and having experienced small, mid and large studios, there are many, many similarities between the different size setups. I don't see why it would be much different in game dev. Of course, there are differences between the different size studios too, but my point that any experience is good remains.
Granted. But game developers often don't have cash (they're doing the university hobo thing, or whatever) and they see the indie path as a means to create and release. Then they run into barriers like the PayPal thing, which stops most of them. Drive like yours would be awesome to see more of :) But those that wanted to work hard to go overseas have, via I-Imagine...
On the whole PayPal subject (I won't quote that huge block of text), I'll admit I was unaware of the huge costs involved in merchant bank accounts. However, as a consumer myself, I'll admit that I'd personally never deal with a merchant who used PayPal. It's not really about being elitist, it's just out of wary consumer paranoia.
We tend to use "PayPal" to describe a whole host of related services. Everything from Flash payment systems to large casual portals. It's a really big issue :(
Anyway, this thread looks like it's on the brink of turning into some personal ****-slapping, chest-beating fest due to some recent posts from others, so I'm backing out now before it gets ugly.
No. It won't, even if I have to be the bastard and delete a lot of posts... *sigh*
Flint
05-08-2009, 04:05 PM
there is **** loads going on in the industry here and tons of people making a good living on game dev in south africa besides the "official" "game" companies. i kw guys who have current tenders with disney interactive, etc. myself included.
guys making games that are best sellers on xbox360 community games.
2. Point el tendering people towards the forums to say hi please! That would be rad.
I'd like to second and third that. One thing I picked up from the article was that Smallfry Mobile got a mention AND a link (looks like I'll be getting a jump in incoming smallfrymobile.com mail this week :p ). Smallfry has been dormant for over two years now and gets mentioned in an article like this, yet there is no mention of these supposedly successful community games. We really didn't work that hard at marketing ourselves, other than a bit of involvement with the local development community, yet that tiny bit has persisted for years and still results in calls that could be real business leads if Smallfry were still active.
Every article on game dev in South Africa touches on the usual suspects-Twilyt, I-Imagine, Luma, SAGD, Game.Dev and (somehow) Smallfry. Where are these other mythical guys working on successful projects and why aren't they participating in some way in the community, not only for marketing purposes but to share experience and contacts. We're already a small industry, we need to be as noticeable to each other as possible!
(case in point, I just got a phone call from someone bored in corporate game dev that wants to move into mobile game dev, and SmallfryMobile.com was the only relevant local site he could find-just as well we're hiring at I-I ;))
Azimuth
05-08-2009, 04:31 PM
Deleting posts is just playing the same self-important game as the person posting the dumb comments.
It's this fatuous ego-tripping in-fighting that's keeping SA game development in a perpetual state of adolescence.
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 04:42 PM
Deleting posts is just playing the same self-important game as the person posting the dumb comments.
It's this fatuous ego-tripping in-fighting that's keeping SA game development in a perpetual state of adolescence.
Deleting things that are off topic is the norm. There shouldn't be a fight, rather a discussion of the things we've raised and talked about at some length so far... I'd love to hear your take on the context stuff I was writing about earlier, for instance.
I know there's an annoying perception of a split "in the SA game development scene". One day I hope we're all mature enough to discuss that problem without acting like angry children, until then, posts will need to be moderated ;)
Fruzz
05-08-2009, 04:49 PM
Passionate arguments aside, I'm interested in the difference between the indie and big company games development that has been spoken about.
I have followed Onona's line of thinking and have come over to the UK to try and get a solid base of games development experience.
My goal is to try and get into a bigger games company here and get experience that way.
I'm interested in what you said about the experience being different for a small indie games company in SA at the moment as apposed to a bigger games company overseas, Dis. My thinking was more in line with what Onona said about any experience being good experience. (especially if its in the same field :)
I can understand that working on a big game, making a small part of it and not getting more general games development experience might be detrimental. Is that what you mean by not the correct experience Dis? Or is it more about the experience of working in a small, agile team?
I guess my point is, what is good experience to be able to go back to SA and make games?
Miktar
05-08-2009, 04:54 PM
It's this fatuous ego-tripping in-fighting that's keeping SA game development in a perpetual state of adolescence.
I would like to just drop my 2c on something, regarding the "divide" of the indie game dev scene in South Africa - it's got ****all to do with egos, it's got all to do with philosophy. The two sides are incompatible because their philosophies are incompatible, and saying that the two should just "kiss and make up" is a kind of Fisher Price moral highground that really has nothing to do with why the two factions exist.
The infighting is the result of two competing philosophies in the same mental space. I honestly don't think the in-fighting is keeping SA game development in a perpetual state of adolescence, if that were true, we wouldn't be seeing the sheer leaps and bounds in progress that it's making - but as dislekcia said, there are barriers in place because South Africa is NOT the EU or US, so the structures and systems which indies can use to further their developments simply don't exist.
A parallel I would like to make is when I was drawing a webcomic and taking donations to keep doing it, since it took so much of my time. If I was in the US, I would have been able to simply put a PayPal button on my site and be happy with it, but since PayPal didn't exist for SA then (and still doesn't now in any useable for except for paying out), I had to go with Worldpay. Worldpay took such huge chunks from incoming money, I could have made four times as much as I did, had PayPal been around. In the end, I couldn't make a living off donations not because of lacking donations, but because of how much of the donations was taken in fees by Worldpay, the ONLY solution that was available for accepting international money (wire transfers take EVEN MORE commission).
So really, stop talking as if this is about dislekcia VS. korax, because it's not. It's about two philosophies, and if you can't identify the two as discreet competing sides, you need to re-examine everything you've seen thus far in a new light, because you've been looking at it all wrong.
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 05:09 PM
Passionate arguments aside, I'm interested in the difference between the indie and big company games development that has been spoken about.
I have followed Onona's line of thinking and have come over to the UK to try and get a solid base of games development experience.
My goal is to try and get into a bigger games company here and get experience that way.
I'm interested in what you said about the experience being different for a small indie games company in SA at the moment as apposed to a bigger games company overseas, Dis. My thinking was more in line with what Onona said about any experience being good experience. (especially if its in the same field :)
I can understand that working on a big game, making a small part of it and not getting more general games development experience might be detrimental. Is that what you mean by not the correct experience Dis? Or is it more about the experience of working in a small, agile team?
I guess my point is, what is good experience to be able to go back to SA and make games?
I was thinking of you when this came up ;)
I agree with Onona when she says that any experience is good, especially in an industry with as much on the job learning as game development. However, an indie team is a very different beast to a large studio. In a studio you're part of a large machine that has established methods of doing everything, a concrete pipeline that things come down and you do what you've been trained to do. That's a great way to make big games with loads of people, but it's not good for working in smaller teams. As an indie you're going to be expected to wear multiple hats at the same time: You're going to be coding, but you've got to understand the entire system (because you either built it or you're not simply assigned to one small part of it) and you're probably not going to have in-house tools and a pipeline to help you out. You have to be flexible to be as fast as indies need to be.
I think that's why Onona pointed out producer experience as being important, because that's the kind of general, multi-tasking, big-picture understanding of game development that is required as an indie. In a small team, everyone's a producer to some extent.
I could have specialised as a network programmer and gone overseas to work on bigger games. Instead I stayed, started my own company and had to learn about all sorts of things that I never expected to need to know. Everything from business to art to marketing and back again (I'm still weak on sound tho)... To be honest, I wouldn't have it any other way ;)
Oliver
05-08-2009, 05:17 PM
I'm extremely grateful that the article on Gamasutra has sparked such a vicious (in a good way) debate. If this is the only thing to come out of the work put into the article, then it was well worth it.
Looking at all of the replies, it seems everybody has an opinion, which is excellent.
In this way, we test each other's preconceived ideas and challenge each other to rethink those ideas, either resulting in those opinions being reinforced or other opinions becoming adopted.
I would like to briefly address the idea that the article was somehow 'insular,' however, and that the local scene shouldn't be 'insular.'
The article was attempting to provide a good historical overview of the South African game development scene, with commentary by developers based here and abroad (abroad because I wanted to find out why those developer left the country in the first place, using only two examples because the article could only be so long) to discover where we are and where we're going.
I chose to interview people that I thought had interesting perspectives on the local industry, and would be able to show many different sides of South Africa.
I'm a firm believer in learning from past mistakes, and then building for the future by working hard in the present.
With an article dealing with the very subject of the past (that is more or less comprehensive), I thought that it could be the first and last word on that subject, so we could concentrate more on the present. Personally, I think I failed in that regard, but it has still served a good purpose.
The reason we have to be introspective with our thoughts about progress is that this is where we live. We have to look at the problems, and possible solutions to those problems, in order to fix them and remove them as barriers so we are able to provide ourselves with the best possible conditions for success.
If we live in a place with barriers to success, then we're not going to go on and pretend they don't exist, looking longingly to foreign places - that's a sure path to failure. Instead, we're going to try and fix those problems so we can succeed.
It would be great to collaborate with international developers and work on an international stage, but it takes time to build that sort of reputation - we can't just send Gabler or Carmel a message asking to work with them (or them to work with us), nor can we casually ask random websites (or TIGSource or Indiegames.com) to post about our work.
We need to build things ourselves, in our own back yards, before we can gain the kind of exposure. To do that, we need to remove the barriers to success, some of which were noted in the article, all of which are unique to South Africa, which is the reason for the 'insular' approach.
Another thing I'd like to briefly touch on, related to this, is that, yes, there are some great ideas and tons (tons and tons and tons and tons) of passion in the local indie game development community, but the flaw is that all of us (myself included) are working in isolation, even if that means a two, three, four or even five person team. There are many community members here, all with great ideas and drive, so it would be wonderful if people got together to work on a single project, instead of many multiple concept sketches.
All of that time spent on weekends and in your spare time would add up to many hundreds of hours of work, all focussed on completing a single project.
I've also been learning more and more about the importance of 'simple' polish (I hate that word, but there you go). Simple game mechanics can go a long way with oodles of attention lavished on the niceties, as games from Popcap, 2D Boy, Blizzard, etc. show. Take those clever concepts that have surfaced in the community, form a team and polish it until it's blinding. That's at least one avenue, and is my opinion.
Thanks for taking the time to read this, as well as taking the time to contribute to this thread - this is important stuff. Thanks also for the kind words doled onto the article. It was my hope to spark debate.
Cheers.
PS It was regrettable that I referenced Smallfry in the article, but I had no reason to believe that it was inactive (and definitely my fault that I didn't follow up - I'm very sorry).
PPS When trying to build something that we can be proud of, it's counter-productive to tear individuals down
PPPS I also think that South Africa is an unusually proud nation, which means we end up focussing on the country and, in this way, becoming naturally insular. Again, my opinion.
Freekybevis
05-08-2009, 05:24 PM
"onona" -
Keep ure panties on princess. Sorry that I didnt make any sense, i only had 5 minutes to right the post...but i am glad that u eventually understood what i was trying to say.
"dislekcia"-
1. I don't think there are any egos on display here. Simply debate and questions.
Then wats with the very specific finger pointing at how "inexperienced" other people are. It helps noone.
-
2. Point el tendering people towards the forums to say hi please! That would be rad. Also, who's working on XNA 360 stuff and why aren't they talking? AFAIK there haven't been any releases on XBIG so far from SA, mainly because we're working on our own XBIG releases ;) Seriously, I'd love to talk to fellow devs about the problems of raising awareness for XBIG and marketing, etc. Joining forces makes a lot of sense there...
It's sort of pointless to go "Oh, there's all this other stuff going on that you people don't know about!" when there's no information around ABOUT this stuff, so get people together get more info out there. That's something we're not too good at, as a community in general.
Well, in my immediate circle, Roger Miller (www.collectivemass.com. old site, there is a new one goin up soon), the guy who i worked with on our DPB 2008 entry "save Jack", which came tied for 5th. He is also currently working on a game for disney, and ive heard about a couple of guys who have started out doing xbox 360 community games and last month their best seller was a virtual fireplace. dunno wat projects they working on atm im nt in direct contact with them, but i will try to get their URL and details for u.
and i am working on 2 titles, one with a senior game developer at Derivco and another with Roger called Big Sky which is due for release late november for community games.
Hope that helps :)
Azimuth
05-08-2009, 05:27 PM
Lots of stuff.
I see what you're saying, but for as long as I've been involved with the NAG forums and Game.Dev, it seems it's always been Game.Dev VS SAGD. I see a lot of passive-aggressive comments passing between the two, and not a lot of games getting made.
I love the "Fisher Price moral high ground" comment, though. I'm going to steal and use that somewhere.
Dislekcia, I'll get around to responding to your posts a little later. I've been chainsawing Locust all day, and just dropping in occasionally to follow this discussion. I need some time to collate my thoughts. :)
Nandrew
05-08-2009, 05:53 PM
... so I'm backing out now before it gets ugly.
Please don't.
----
I'm not entirely savvy about financial and business models, but I AM going to throw in a little snippet that I think a lot of people are missing out on: as much as we're talking about ego and the like, I don't see enough people with the balls to promote their own small-scale games on any sort of scale. I'm also a culprit, I'll have you know, and so it's probably somewhat ironic that I'm pointing this out.
There is a large focus in this thread on monetising South African game development, but not enough on hobbyist exposure. This probably runs in parallel to what a lot of people are talking about, so forgive me if I try to shift focus for a moment and suggest that we take a look at the little guys who are making the tiny, non-profit projects on the bottom.
There are a glut of very interesting and quite fun games on Game.Dev (and SAGameDev too, actually: Web and Circus have a few very real iPhone dev shots up there which just don't seem to be advertised enough anywhere else!). Not many of them are worthy of international exposure for one simple reason: they've skipped on polish and presentation. Technicalities like tutorials, bugfixes and adequate menu systems are left by the wayside, leaving us with a menagerie of potential -- but incomplete -- projects.
If South African devs want respect in a global market, we need to look at pulling up our not-for-profit titles as well: a quick glance at the IndieGames roundup on any given week shows a whole bunch of cool freeware and browser games, and speaking as somebody who actually plays most of them, a lot of them don't hold a candle to the protos and ideas I'm seeing in here. So what have they got that we don't? That final 10% that everybody's talking about in here, really. And the willingness to throw themselves at the crowds, to boot.
I keep thinking of Gazza's/Azi's Gears of War JRPG. I'm not a fan of the genre, and I probably have some rather harsh criticisms of certain game aspects, but I'm going to put it simply: if they just RETURN to that bugger (possibly the most difficult thing for anyone to do around here) and fix those things -- iron over the slightly-too-heavy focus on repetitive combat and such -- I will make a newspost on Dev.Mag, then personally chat to Kieron Gillen and Derek Yu and Michael Rose and all those people who actually have media clout and see that they show this game. Lowest common denominator: it'll kick the **** out of some of the stuff that's received a spotlight on IndieGames, and currently that site is one of *the* highest-exposure areas for non-flash indie games on the Internet. Fact. Unless you're developing in Flash, sites like Kongregate and Newgrounds simply won't be an option, and the spotlight-only approach of IndieGames, RPS and TIGSource ensures that exposure.
This:
... nor can we casually ask random websites (or TIGSource or Indiegames.com) to post about our work.
is bull****! :D I say so with all due fondness, respect and sincerity -- websites like these really are quite approachable, we just don't realise it and -- for the most part -- we're crippled by shyness and an inability to complete projects properly.
The benefits are two-fold. The lesser one is that fuzzy feeling of accomplishment that encourages devs to improve themselves and make more games. The more important one is that it generates discussion about your games and improves your exposure as a game developer, meaning that people are more likely to look your way and even, lo and behold, sympathise with future projects. My first case in point: Swedish developer cactus. I can't describe just how little regard I have for most of his games, but he's become something of a hero in the media simply due to how many of the damn buggers he churns out and advertises properly. Wat?
Anna Anthropy, aka Auntie Pixelante, recently released a game about a freaking flying pig. There are mixed feelings about this game (and Q-man wouldn't even recommend it to Hitler), and if you get down to it, it's a glorified (but well-polished) game about tapping the spacebar and making sure you don't hit obstacles. But everybody's playing it. Wat?
Blinkout, a game that I know well from its WIP on TIGSource, is also inferior to some of the concepts here (I don't say this to be mean to the developer, I just genuinely think that our stuff is rad). It has thrown itself at the market, SECURED SPONSORS and has already been played by thousands of people. Wat?
If you've played any of the above and found them decidedly not to your tastes, then I sincerely ask: why can't we do that and 1-up them? Why is it that I can't find polished local games that I would be willing to put onto Dev.Mag? The best I usually get are promising "work in progress" titles. I'm forced to look abroad for people who actually finish a presentable game -- no matter how humble -- and are brave enough to punt it.
All I have to write about are Luma, Luma, and holy-****-not-again Luma. Which is cool, except that our country is making itself look like a one-trick pony. Korax contacted me through several e-mails and press packs to get his XNA engine onto Dev.Mag's front page. I know some people don't like it, but that's *far* more effort than most of us are putting into the product-whoring deal right now, and I challenge anybody who doesn't like it to just sit down for a moment and give me their own offer. And I know that the mag is a damn small fish in a big ocean of media moguls, but our network is steadily becoming broader and there's nothing more that I'd like than to send my next e-mail to all the other media peeps out there and say, "Hey there, here's that game that I promised you. Enjoy."
People also need to start attending international forums more. And this is actually where onona's primary point stabs in quite thoroughly. Why are we so incestuously hiding our projects on these pages for other South Africans to gloat at? Why aren't we merging properly with the global community?
Why aren't we putting our games up for scrutiny on TIGSource or one of the other international groups? Most of the stuff on the TIGSource front page started in the TIGSource forums, and instead of one or two "go you!" comments in response to a game post, the peeps there actually provide a flood of very detailed, very realistic and very useful feedback for even the smallest projects.
I'm not going to try claim that I know much about the business side of game development, and I won't claim that I have the media side "sussed out" either. There's just a few things that I *have* learned from reading, observing and interacting with the broader market out there, and one of those things is that we need to start doing more stuff like what I've mentioned above. And not just once-off, either. A drop in the Internet gaming ocean doesn't do much. A rainstorm will have more of an impact.
Miktar
05-08-2009, 05:57 PM
I see what you're saying, but for as long as I've been involved with the NAG forums and Game.Dev, it seems it's always been Game.Dev VS SAGD. I see a lot of passive-aggressive comments passing between the two, and not a lot of games getting made.
I dunno. I see a whole lot of stuff coming out of Game. Dev, a lot of games being made. Didn't you make one too with Chippit? Aren't there regular competitions were really great stuff comes out?
To be honest, the Game.Dev VS. SAGD has been around for far longer than Game.Dev has existed. It's no big secret that dislekcia and I have been around since the start of SAGD and even back then, a conflict in philosophy and belief in how to approach the blossoming local game development scene has created a rift between the two schools of thought.
Only time and action will tell which one is the more realistic approach for the context it's in, though I would say, and this is my honest to goodness appraisal of the situation - Game.Dev, in the relatively short time it has existed, has done far more good for local game development in terms of getting people involved, producing, learning and experiencing and getting the scene exposure, than SAGD has done in it's lengthily tenure. Yes, I'll be accused of siding with dislekcia because he's a friend and other such bull****, but I think the results speak for themselves.
I don't want to say 'sour grapes' from SAGD's side, because I don't /want/ to propagate the continued divide between the two factions. I'm sick and tired of "dislekcia vs korax' ****, and I've told dislekcia countless times to just ****ing shup up and not even respond to korax, but nobody listens to me. :P
I don't CARE what each side thinks of themselves, what I care about is seeing people who previously thought making games was something you needed maths, college and study to make, realize that you don't need any of the above.
How many great ideas have seen the light of day in this forum alone? Gears of War RPG? UQ? Roach Toaster? That thing from Nandrew with the funky gravity? And so on and so fourth.
I wish I could just tell both sides to "STFU AND MAKE GAMES", so I will.
STFU AND MAKE GAMES, ffs.
Nandrew
05-08-2009, 06:05 PM
Oh, and however you take my above post, I do resolve to do a better job on my own end of talking about and promoting local development. I've been lazy and overconfident: as I understand it, this tends to happen to junior industry members when they get their jaws on a project that they find exciting.
Help me out and communicate with me on media-related projects if I don't approach you myself. Even if you're not enthused about Dev.Mag itself, I'm starting to get friendly with a variety of people Out There who could do something about your projects.
Nandrew
05-08-2009, 06:10 PM
How many great ideas have seen the light of day in this forum alone? Gears of War RPG? UQ? Roach Toaster? That thing from Nandrew with the funky gravity? And so on and so fourth.
I personally resolve that the next game I put to keyboard will be a small, freeware game that will be completed, polished and will benefit from a decent amount of effort with regards to punting.
If I fail to uphold this promise, you may chop my arms off. Final.
Oliver
05-08-2009, 06:24 PM
This [... nor can we casually ask random websites (or TIGSource or Indiegames.com) to post about our work. - Oliver] is bull****! :D I say so with all due fondness, respect and sincerity -- websites like these really are quite approachable, we just don't realise it and -- for the most part -- we're crippled by shyness and an inability to complete projects properly.
Hmm... ok, agreed ;)
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 06:57 PM
Nandrew's post is made of win :) I was going to challenge a few of Oliver's points, but I Nandrew did it for me in a far better and more inspiring way. That's brilliant and I couldn't agree more.
Now the next comp is going to look like Nandrew's idea ;) Sweet.
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 07:13 PM
"dislekcia"-
Then wats with the very specific finger pointing at how "inexperienced" other people are. It helps noone.
I dunno why it's considered finger pointing, that's my honest to goodness advice. Advice I give everyone. A lot. Make games, release them, learn. The experience angle was quite literally just how that post was going, not an insult at all... In fact, thinking it was one is sorta odd, from my perspective.
Well, in my immediate circle, Roger Miller (www.collectivemass.com. old site, there is a new one goin up soon), the guy who i worked with on our DPB 2008 entry "save Jack", which came tied for 5th. He is also currently working on a game for disney, and ive heard about a couple of guys who have started out doing xbox 360 community games and last month their best seller was a virtual fireplace. dunno wat projects they working on atm im nt in direct contact with them, but i will try to get their URL and details for u.
and i am working on 2 titles, one with a senior game developer at Derivco and another with Roger called Big Sky which is due for release late november for community games.
Hope that helps :)
I've seen that collectivemass site before, didn't know it was from the people involved in Save Jack. I really wish I knew why people didn't interact online, I'd have loved to playtest Save Jack and get more input perspectives on SpaceHack (everyone here that could get it running on their Xbox got the game to give feedback multiple times before the DBP deadline last year).
The virtual fireplace is by locals? ... Odd. To be honest I've always gone "argh" when I see it on the list, but I guess if it works, it works. I know I was working on a sudoku game for XBIG after none of the existing sudoku games were what I wanted, so I probably shouldn't talk ;)
STFU AND MAKE GAMES, ffs.
This.
Freekybevis
05-08-2009, 07:37 PM
totally man, fireplace. best seller. like commmooonnnnn wat the hell. but they make money so grats to them. it will proberly fund better titles so if i were them i would be boasting everywhere.
will talk to roger about releasing save jack for free if u have xbox controllers. no promises though.
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 07:41 PM
totally man, fireplace. best seller. like commmooonnnnn wat the hell. but they make money so grats to them. it will proberly fund better titles so if i were them i would be boasting everywhere.
will talk to roger about releasing save jack for free if u have xbox controllers. no promises though.
Hahahaha! I guess I'd be crowing about that sort of thing too ;) Any chance of sales stats? Also, we've got that tax agreement with the US, so they don't withhold anything, right?
Nah, Save Jack wouldn't have to be a special PC release, there are a lot of Creators Club members here... Actually, let's see if I can dig up the links to our (xbox only) CCgames.
Freekybevis
05-08-2009, 08:05 PM
I doubt wether you are going to find any sales stats, i am pretty sure that stuff is confidential.
Nah, Save Jack wouldn't have to be a special PC release, there are a lot of Creators Club members here... Actually, let's see if I can dig up the links to our (xbox only) CCgames.
what do you mean ?
Fengol
05-08-2009, 08:39 PM
If I fail to uphold this promise, you may chop my arms off. Final.
Gazza_N and I will hold you too that :P
dislekcia
05-08-2009, 08:41 PM
I doubt wether you are going to find any sales stats, i am pretty sure that stuff is confidential.
It's only confidential because Microsoft doesn't make them public and some developers don't want to tell people what they're earning. The guys behind Weapon of Choice have released their stats, as have a bunch of other XBIG developers over the past 6 months. QCF will release stats and trends when we get a game up on the 360, it would be kinda crap not to ;)
what do you mean ?
Save Jack ran on Xbox 360 for DreamBuildPlay. There are quite a few developers here that have the capability and the subscriptions to deploy games to their 360s and play them, we gave each other a lot of feedback during the run-up to DBP last year. Those stand-alone files are called CCgames, after the Creators Club...
Unfortunately our old CCgames are outdated after all the recent XNA version changes. So we'd have to rebuild and I'm worried that there might be incompatibilities that I won't have time to sort out right now. Gah.
dammit
05-08-2009, 09:42 PM
I think I get where you're coming from here. I can totally understand rating the games produced locally against international projects, the hard truth there is that there are only certain markets where we CAN compete. A web racing game is a niche, sure it doesn't require as much as a hardcore racing game on console, but it's still a niche that can (and is, having played it) fun. I think they guys at Luma know that they need to move towards games that grab players more, Marble Blast Mobile is a huge step in the right direction and personally I really hope it sells tons because it's a GOOD iPhone game - a space where we can compete with the limited resources available locally (actually, I'd argue that Luma really one-upped the "SA expectation" level there, I didn't think we had a team that could produce what they did in the time they had).
In the end, this whole thing comes down to money. There really isn't much of it available locally for game development (at the risk of sounding like some people who go on about Venture Capital a little too much). Investors are starting to understand what's possible and that's good - but that wouldn't be happening if it weren't for us hobos trying to make things to the best of our ability and resources.
What we need is a success story. A true rags to riches sort of tale that echos the indie ethos of living off old boots until you get the game you dreamed of making out there and people started paying you more money than you could count for it. We need an Introversion, a 2D-Boy, heck even a Jonathan Blow would work.
You know that I want to give you and Chippit the chance to make UQ be that game... Like I said, it comes down to money. Even if it means Aeq and I end up busting our balls making cellphone games for advertisers so that we can afford to actually PAY developers and artists to make cool stuff. That's QCF's boundary that we're trying to push: Simply earning a living making games in SA is hard enough. Making enough of a living to afford a team that can work on their own IP and do it right? That's a dream worth having.
Why do you think I care so much about the cool game concepts that come out of this place? Because I want to be able to give these devs a hand up so they can have 6 months to turn that idea into the next Narbacular Drop. It would be nice not to starve while doing so ;)
You know, I have a huge amount of respect for what you and Aeq do. Just wanted to say that. You may now resume regular discussions.
Evil_Toaster
06-08-2009, 11:16 AM
I think there are many in the community with the skills to create a decent game. Many of the concepts seen here could go commercial if their creators committed to bringing up the level of polish and adding more content. Things generally seem to trail off when it comes to the business side of things.
If we want to turn this into an industry, that means figuring out how to make money out of the games. There should be more discussion (and action) taking place around the various business aspects of selling games. I myself certainly underestimated how much work can be involved on the business side. Cartesian Chaos involved many months of after hours work to create, and after some minor fanfare, simply fell flat when it came to trying to market & sell it. To date it's sold 3 copies, and it'll remain that way until I find the correct channel to sell through.
So, I think the key thing missing here is an awareness of how to choose the right channels, target audience, how to do marketing, what channels are available for accepting payment, donations, etc. In fact, it might not even be that, it might just be about not wanting to leave the 'development comfort zone' and venture out into the relatively uncomfortable 'business space'.
Before I launch my next game, I'm going to have a detailed strategy on how and where I will be making money from it.
AndrewJ
06-08-2009, 03:13 PM
So far, the biggest points that stuck out at me were "POLISH THE GAMES! DO THE LAST TEN PERCENT!!! FINISH WELL!!!" and "Get a business-minded/sales-minded partner/friend who can help you with marketing and help you change your mindset from 'game dev'/'game programmer' to 'marketer'."
And yes, I too need to get off my butt and finish something, whether it be an existing project and any-frigging-well thing. Just finish it!
This is a really great discussion guys and girls, thank you very much. And thanks to Oliver for writing that piece.
Fengol
06-08-2009, 03:50 PM
I don't think it's so much about finding a friend to teach you marketing, the lessons Dislekcia and Evil_Toaster have learnt and are sharing are found with having any sole proprietor business or entrepreneurship.
Whether you're making and selling games or running some other home business like Cairnswm, doing business is bloody hard and requires mountains of dedication and the stats are that most businesses fail.
What's making the difference is realising you're starting a real business which has different priorities and goals.
Evil_Toaster
06-08-2009, 04:21 PM
The biggest thing to be aware of is that a complete game is only half the work. If you're looking to make money out of making games, there's two obvious steps: Make game, Sell game. Both sides need due attention if you're to succeed. You can make a great game, but without a workable plan on how to sell it, you're heading for dissapointment.
Many people in the IT industry sell things before they've been created, which then gives them the money needed to create it. That is however, generally the contract work side of things. If you're building something for someone else, it makes sense to go that route. If you want to sell your own thing, small indie games generally won't get up front funding, so you're taking a risk developing a game in the hopes that it'll sell. Games certainly don't sell by hope alone, so it's only logical to try and reduce that risk by having a plan on how you'll get to making a profit on all that time you spent, possibly before you even begin work on a project.
I think there's a very stark difference between creative thinking and business thinking. Creative thinking is about pushing boundaries, about creating novel combinations of things, about putting together the stuff you've been seeing inside your head. Unrestrained, it's not concerned about how much time something will take, how practical it is, or even whether or not anyone else will like it. Business thinking on the other hand is about what's actually happening, it's much more tied to reality, it asks questions like who can we sell this game to? How do we reach them? Based on our resources, skills and market conditions, what is the best platform to release this game through? How do we accept payment? How much can we expect to make? (Which then dictates how much time you commit to the project), etc, etc.
For any venture to succeed, you need those two lines of thinking to be balanced.
Fengol
07-08-2009, 08:49 AM
WOW! O.O It can't be put simpler than that, it's 2 distinct parts with 2 distinct professions.
xyber
07-08-2009, 10:20 AM
STFU AND MAKE GAMES, ffs.
Yes sir :)
This topic has been a great read and gratz to Oliver for the article.
dislekcia
07-08-2009, 11:49 AM
WOW! O.O It can't be put simpler than that, it's 2 distinct parts with 2 distinct professions.
There's a reason Introversion was only 33% actual coder when it made it out of the bedroom and into the industry.
Mark Morris was business, Tom Arundel = marketing. Their first hire wasn't another coder to help out Chris, but someone to manage PR instead.
AndrewJ
07-08-2009, 12:35 PM
but someone to manage PR instead.Smart move.
Flint
11-08-2009, 10:27 AM
At the risk of resurrecting a flame war, I'd like to give my 2c on the Game.Dev/SAGD thing.
My understanding of when all this started was back when Game.Dev was really in it's infancy, and SAGD was a somewhat more 'mature' community. Danny had begun evangelizing his philosophy of aim small and get it finished, and the (then) very elitist SAGD crowd seemed to snub the Game.Dev community due to it's use of 'simpler' technologies. At the time, I completely understood the resentment from the Game.Dev side at the sort of attitude they had to endure. Game.Dev has since grown in leaps and bounds, matured in it's own right, and resulted in some great games according to that "get it finished" philosophy, and that's great. Sadly, I feel the elitism has also now been reversed.
I also happen to believe that it's more productive for indie teams to aim for smaller products and get them finished, rather than to keep starting a new, overly ambitious, project every six months. As someone in the industry I know how valuable those "get it finished" skills are when looking for someone to hire. I do however also understand that not everyone is in this to make a living out of it, and there is nothing wrong with that. If the guys that frequent SAGD get their kicks out of building a .Net Quake 3 engine clone and never building a game with it, that's great. They're in it for the technical challenge, and if they happen to produce some sexy screenshots in the process all the better for them. Not every hobbyist mechanic's rebuilt MG or Triumph makes it out of the garage-that doesn't meanthey got any less enjoyment out of their hobby.
I disagree completely that these philosophies are incompatible and I see no reason why the SAGD and Game.Dev can't get along with some civility. Again looking at it from a hiring point of view, seeing the spats between the two communities makes me wonder how the individuals involved would work in a team where they had philosophical differences with their team mates, or with their superiors. You don't have to agree with someone on everything to work successfully with them. Think about how you're warned these days to be careful about your behavior on Facebook and Twitter for fear of how future career prospects would be affected. Forums are no different.
Finally, what I believe desperately needs to happen here is that the leaders of these two communities should get together in person, hammer out their differences and figure out how to bring their communities closer together. Lead by example (Yes I know, easy to say when I'm not in that position, but honestly how difficult could it be).
So how about it disleksia, Korax? Pick a date, time and location and get it over with. Heck I'll buy the first round of drinks :)
dislekcia
11-08-2009, 12:02 PM
Thanks for the post Flint, I think the biggest problem with the whole idea of a community "split" has been my fault. I didn't kill the concept when it first appeared...
The truth is that there's no animosity from the Game.Dev "side" (if you can call it a side), anyone and everyone is welcome here, provided they're keen on making cool stuff. That's all I or anyone else here wants to do, when you get right down to it. It's also quite telling to see who the people are who brought animosity or accusations into this thread, not to mention how what was touted as an "impending flamewar" simply wasn't one. That's an indication of the maturity and openness of this community: The rest of the forums may have their spats, but Game.Dev can be relied upon for reasonable discussion and interesting feedback. I have it on good authority that it's that side of Game.Dev that's made the biggest impact on many people here.
The only thing there is from me personally is a bit of frustration and probably exasperation. Sure, there's nothing wrong with enjoying the technical challenge of building engines and neat renderers (Mister PS2 memory management system ;) - that I still don't get) but if that's what happens there, then it's slightly misleading to say that you're all about game development as a whole. My frustration comes from the unfortunate confusion that stems from people's misconceptions about that mislabeling of SAGD - At conferences with international types about innovation in SA, meetings with government funding decision makers and the like, when I say Game.Dev, people hear SAGD and automatically dismiss what happens here under the misconception they have of what SAGD is visible for. That's not just mildly annoying, it actively ****es me off that SAGD is so maligned. Then it annoys me further that Game.Dev is tarred with the same misconceptions when in reality, if people had seen it for themselves, it would be a lot harder to misconstrue.
Korax and I have met many times. Aeq and I are regulars at SAGD meets and Fengol joins when he can - it's game development, I'm there, end of story. In person, Korax is friendly if slightly reserved. On threads like this one, he isn't. That's about the gist of it. There have been huge emails and PMs back and forth about exactly this topic: How can SAGD and Game.Dev work together. The answer, so far, is simple:
SAGD is there to be used. It's a set of tools and systems that Korax has built for people. If people need a development journal, SAGD has one for you. If you need a system to handle screenshots or manage an e-zine, SAGD can do that too. Unfortunately, SAGD's systems aren't what people seem to need in order to make games - they hardly seem to need them to work on the technical puzzles of game development either, but that's as may be. I've brainstormed as to what sorts of systems devs would want to use, but I keep going "Ok, gamasutra does that already, plus it's got more exposure possibilities" or "The GreatGamesExperiment has neat showcase facilities, let's use those" because what Miktar says is true: In the end there's a philosophical difference. I don't want to build my own all the time, Korax does. That's cool for him, but it's also not MY fault that his tools aren't being used when NOTHING Game.Dev does duplicates functionality available in SAGD.
And as to why this IS my fault? Well, the more I am seen as some leader type that makes decisions about where a community is heading (in reality I don't, I simply watch and try to help wherever I can, as do many others here), the more people want to see Korax as the same kind of thing. Then good old gamer VS mentality pops up and apparently we must fight. Yeah, awesome. I'm not playing that game... If my appraisal of this situation is seen as hostile (and it probably will in certain circles), too bad. I can't help that. Not everyone is going to like what I do while it's being done, frankly I like to let the results speak for themselves.
We get those results by not being hostile to anything, but instead being realistic and pragmatic. There's no split, there's no politics, there are just people trying to make things and others that seem to want drama as entertainment, that will always happen on the intertrons. How do SAGD and Game.Dev "fight" each other, besides on Google pagerank? Try to think of examples and you'll see they don't.
Flint
11-08-2009, 12:55 PM
Awww, you don't get my memmanager? ;)
Dis what it comes down to for me is perceptions. Whatever the truth is behind the scenes, the perception exists that there is animosity between the communities. I for one don't see it as your fault, or korax's or anyone in particular for that matter. It's a really silly molehill that's grown into a mountain over the years through many small public displays of disagreement from many people. I don't know what the ultimate 'fix' will end up being, perhaps it just requires superhuman restraint from everybody when it comes to commenting on each others' approaches on public forums.
dislekcia
11-08-2009, 01:05 PM
Awww, you don't get my memmanager? ;)
Dis what it comes down to for me is perceptions. Whatever the truth is behind the scenes, the perception exists that there is animosity between the communities. I for one don't see it as your fault, or korax's or anyone in particular for that matter. It's a really silly molehill that's grown into a mountain over the years through many small public displays of disagreement from many people. I don't know what the ultimate 'fix' will end up being, perhaps it just requires superhuman restraint from everybody when it comes to commenting on each others' approaches on public forums.
Hell no. That thing confuses me... Also I still have scars from getting stabbed for calling "new" when I shouldn't have ;)
Yes, it's a molehill. Actually, it's not even a molehill. And yes, I agree, the perception of this "issue" outside the community is the biggest problem. However, I don't think that trying to be more restrained when commenting on other people's work is a solution: This is the internet, people aren't "nice" here; Plus we need criticisms and comments to move forward; If people can't handle that, cool - Can't handle. Heat. Kitchen. We know the rest.
After all, nobody ever lauds somebody's political correctness ;) We tend to find that it's those few people that are willing to challenge their perception of the truth that succeed. You can't do that if you're too busy dancing around an issue to even talk about it properly.
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