Rehashing progression yet again

[dislekcia]

You can call it what you like, you're still trying to second-guess decisions made with different information than you have.

Because if we're going to talk about experience, then you have to understand that I've personally watched tens of thousands of people play Desktop Dungeons. I've taught thousands more to play the game, testing out different tutorial styles and what info to reveal (and what to hide and what to hint at and how) each time. And that's just me. When you factor in that everyone else on the game has been doing the same thing and reporting back to each other about what we've learned, that's a lot of experience.

No, it doesn't invalidate yours, but it does put it into perspective. Desktop Dungeons is a game about figuring things out, about reaching sudden enlightenment and understanding. Some people don't like that, they won't like the game and that's fine. You can't try to make a game for everyone when you're an indie, it doesn't work... Your example? "Hey, why aren't you using glyphs?" or "Everything in the game is useful" or even a directed "So what does that thing do?" not only gives a hint as to what to do, but preserves that feeling of discovery so that when the person figures out that glyphs are great, they feel smart - instead of dumb for having to be told!

Over the years of putting this game in front of hordes and hordes of new people we've tried so many different amounts of tutorial information and yes, even different progressions of character classes and traits (I can tell you where almost every single interaction in the tutorials comes from - the lvl 2 Meatman that turns pacifist, that's because Jenova Chen kept dying to it at E3). This is what preserved those aha moments the best. This is what works for the most people. I've spent years and years testing that incrementally. So perhaps that explains why I said you should make your own games, because you're never going to have the experience that we have in designing this one and I'm curious how you'd respond to someone who believes otherwise for your own work.

Now honestly, we've been over all of this before.

[Tinker]

Yeah, and you could argue that the Paladin is actually a Priest, and the Priest is actually a Paladin. Though some of it is dependant on how you look at stuff. Fighter is actually a good name because as a Fighter you will need to melee stuff at least initially (compared to Wizard for example, who can reasonably complete a map without attacking at all). Then again, it's just my cents, I'm kind of cool with how DD pans out despite these quirks.

But I do think the Wiki needs to be much stronger. I mean, it's already quite good, and useful for new players, but I think it could still be beefed up, and become the information treasure trove wikis are supposed to be, especially for a complex game like DD. Anyone improving the wiki deserves our collective thanks, even if it's just adding a little bit here and there.

[dislekcia]

[MTaur]

[dislekcia]

Yup. But there's a big difference between the question of "What do burn stacks do?" vs "How do I beat the Bankers?"

Burn stack understanding might well be part of the knowledge that helps you beat the Bankers, but generally people simply aren't using the resources available to them (in terms of regen) and pointing out that they should use their mana and not explore when at full health works wonders.

Different players are going to want different things from a wiki. I'm just wondering if anyone is coming at the organisation of content from that angle.

[MTaur]

[Tinker]

[Lynzkar]

For the dungeon layout, maybe we could take some inspiration from the official terraria wiki.
From my expirience that is the most begginer friendly and well structured wiki I've seen. This of course is just my opinion, and it is a very differnt game, which of course means different wiki structure.