Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:03 pm

Cleared Phantom Citadel :)

I read something somewhere about it being the hardest dungeon right now, or was that curious? Finished it with in second try, the first one fell short a little bit at the end, because I didnt have enough black space in the main level...

The reward seems nice and the Blizzard level is funny :) Managed to get to the boss first try, but he had 285 damage and Retaliate Fireball oO
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:47 pm

Nurator wrote:Cleared Phantom Citadel :)

I read something somewhere about it being the hardest dungeon right now, or was that curious? Finished it with in second try, the first one fell short a little bit at the end, because I didnt have enough black space in the main level...

The reward seems nice and the Blizzard level is funny :) Managed to get to the boss first try, but he had 285 damage and Retaliate Fireball oO


Yep, PC is generally speaking the hardest dungeon in the EE right now. It's very difficult to level up, the boss(es) put out a variety of threats, and the stat lines are high. However, with the proper strategy I'd argue it's really not that much tougher than any of the other toughest dungeons. It just requires a bit more thought and planning to bring it down to that level.

As for EB, I'm assuming you're referring to the Soul Sucker who had 285 and Retaliate: Fireball? Those 5 bosses (Frozen Troll, Nameless Beast, Soul Sucker, Doom Armor, and Naga Fireweaver) come out in random order each time (and with their own unique areas for the first 3 randomized), so if you haven't run into the Soul Sucker until your 3rd return to the camp then not having DP/Quicksilver+Reflexes/PISORF/a way to spend your mana without targeting an enemy will kill you. Really, the dungeon isn't too bad in normal, but put on the Vicious token and suddenly little considerations like that become very important.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:49 pm

The Avatar wrote:Yep, PC is generally speaking the hardest dungeon in the EE right now. It's very difficult to level up, the boss(es) put out a variety of threats, and the stat lines are high. However, with the proper strategy I'd argue it's really not that much tougher than any of the other toughest dungeons. It just requires a bit more thought and planning to bring it down to that level.


The hardest part here is to get started. Nearly quit my run before running into balanced dagger and then killing some lvl 1s to get started. Then humility and I could easily kill enemies with the same level :) I still really notice my increased skill level from beating the Triple Quest, everything else feels so easy in comparison :D Thats awesome :)
I mean, shade_of_ox will wipe the floor with me, but still :D

As for EB, I'm assuming you're referring to the Soul Sucker who had 285 and Retaliate: Fireball? Those 5 bosses (Frozen Troll, Nameless Beast, Soul Sucker, Doom Armor, and Naga Fireweaver) come out in random order each time (and with their own unique areas for the first 3 randomized), so if you haven't run into the Soul Sucker until your 3rd return to the camp then not having DP/Quicksilver+Reflexes/PISORF/a way to spend your mana without targeting an enemy will kill you. Really, the dungeon isn't too bad in normal, but put on the Vicious token and suddenly little considerations like that become very important.



Ah ok that Soul Sucker wasnt the final boss :D I am glad, went in Purist and managed to clear 3 areas, that would have not been very vicious... but I also had 20 mana when I met him, thats a lot of increase in damage...

Still, I need tips for The Grandmaster, have given up on that one...

And by the way, is there any ETA on the South?
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:02 am

http://prntscr.com/l50uj2
Cleared Echoes of Power without abusing Fido! Hopefully my honor is redeemed.

I enjoyed 2-shottting Namtar with that completely busted item, so I decided to do something similar here and took in an Orc Rogue with Namtar's Ward. My god chain was Binlor -> Jehora for the health and mana boosts - a little unorthodox, I was hoping for GG - but it all worked out pretty well. All in all I still wouldn't call this dungeon very difficult with this build - I had a pretty easy time with CYDSTEPP, BLUDTOPOWA, and the Crystal Ball, but I didn't use Namtar's Ward very effectively (barely used it in the underworld at all) so I think so long as you find one or two decent spellcasting items the run is as good as won for this build. This dungeon definitely gave me less trouble than Gladiator, though to be fair during that run I was also trying to learn how to play a brand new class.

Funnily enough, for the first time ever I almost died to the last form of Namtar - I was on 1 HP with no mana having used all my resources on the 5th form, and when I drank Quicksilver dodge didn't proc. Fortunately I was only a few damage short of one-shotting him so I just converted my glyphs for the win.


@Avatar - Yeah, I already cleared it.

In order of increasing difficulty I would rate the Vicious Curious I've played so far as follows:
Dragon Isles -> Vicious Steel -> Namtar's Lair -> Demonic Library -> Naga City -> VGT (obviously)

Echoes of Power isn't actually very difficult - like Trueblood Bodyguards (once the Matron has Chaotic), all it really does is force you to actually have a build to answer to bottom of the dungeon, rather than just cheesing it. Namtar's Lair is clearable by any character using GG or Schadenfreude to counter the third form, but since you have more than one third form to deal with in Echoes of Power, you really want a hybrid that can actually answer each form properly.

The difference in Namtar's Lair is that the bosses are actually quite strong compared to the Dragon Guards and Elites. On the other hand, you don't need to be that strong of a hybrid to take them down. The Rogue actually is a rather poor hybrid and can barely use BLUDTOPOWA, but Jehora makes any character into a decent caster.

In DI, the extra dragons to kill don't really make up for the fact that you get EXP from killing them - really any build that doesn't rely on resists has an easy time here, as does any build that sticks to GG, thanks to all the extra level ups you get. Also leveling is easy in that dungeon due to the Druids and Forest Trolls that have low stats, which makes it that much easier to have high stats when you're done with the Firstborn already.

At the same time, I dislike that DI Curious has immunities on the guards, because that just automatically cuts down the number of strategies you can use while not really affecting the strategies that do already work. If you wanted to really have an impact on my run, you could give all of the guards and elites Poison AND Mana Burn, and also maybe Life Steal and/or Essence Drain - statswise, they just don't present much challenge as they are. With their immunities, PISORF strats don't work already, but if you lower their resists back to 50, they could also use Protective Blessing.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:05 am

Nurator wrote:The hardest part here is to get started. Nearly quit my run before running into balanced dagger and then killing some lvl 1s to get started. Then humility and I could easily kill enemies with the same level :) I still really notice my increased skill level from beating the Triple Quest, everything else feels so easy in comparison :D Thats awesome :)
I mean, shade_of_ox will wipe the floor with me, but still :D
...
Ah ok that Soul Sucker wasnt the final boss :D I am glad, went in Purist and managed to clear 3 areas, that would have not been very vicious... but I also had 20 mana when I met him, thats a lot of increase in damage...

Still, I need tips for The Grandmaster, have given up on that one...

And by the way, is there any ETA on the South?


Yep, if you know how to tackle the bosses efficiently then the biggest problem with PC quickly becomes leveling. It's why Yendor is an extremely powerful prep there. Similarly, your balanced dagger is an excellent find.

No, the soul sucker is not the final boss, but you're almost there. The finish line is in sight once you overcome the 5 mini-bosses, although it's not unheard of to still lose after defeating them. However I'm not entirely surprised by your purist success, since EB is probably about on par with FF in terms of difficulty.

In terms of those other items, I'm afraid I *don't* have tips for The Grandmaster. I can maybe give a few pointers if you post your moves (although it's really only the 1st level opening sequence that I know by heart, so I'll just let you know if that's perfect). As for Southern ETA, expect it to still be a far way out. Right now, only srid can actively work on coding the mod, and he's got significant outside commitments. So even though on the surface it looks like much of the core work is done, what remains is significant and time consuming. Go check out the post on our website, if you haven't already, for more details.

shade_of_ox wrote:In order of increasing difficulty I would rate the Vicious Curious I've played so far as follows:
Dragon Isles -> Vicious Steel -> Namtar's Lair -> Demonic Library -> Naga City -> VGT (obviously)

Echoes of Power isn't actually very difficult - like Trueblood Bodyguards (once the Matron has Chaotic), all it really does is force you to actually have a build to answer to bottom of the dungeon, rather than just cheesing it. Namtar's Lair is clearable by any character using GG or Schadenfreude to counter the third form, but since you have more than one third form to deal with in Echoes of Power, you really want a hybrid that can actually answer each form properly.

The difference in Namtar's Lair is that the bosses are actually quite strong compared to the Dragon Guards and Elites. On the other hand, you don't need to be that strong of a hybrid to take them down. The Rogue actually is a rather poor hybrid and can barely use BLUDTOPOWA, but Jehora makes any character into a decent caster.

In DI, the extra dragons to kill don't really make up for the fact that you get EXP from killing them - really any build that doesn't rely on resists has an easy time here, as does any build that sticks to GG, thanks to all the extra level ups you get. Also leveling is easy in that dungeon due to the Druids and Forest Trolls that have low stats, which makes it that much easier to have high stats when you're done with the Firstborn already.

At the same time, I dislike that DI Curious has immunities on the guards, because that just automatically cuts down the number of strategies you can use while not really affecting the strategies that do already work. If you wanted to really have an impact on my run, you could give all of the guards and elites Poison AND Mana Burn, and also maybe Life Steal and/or Essence Drain - statswise, they just don't present much challenge as they are. With their immunities, PISORF strats don't work already, but if you lower their resists back to 50, they could also use Protective Blessing.


Huh, not sure how that play report slipped through the cracks. As for DI, first it should be noted that I've already cooked up some improvements to the top half of the dungeon. I'm not going to spoil them, but at the very least it's going to make you put in a lot more effort when you get kills and hamper exploration. As for the subdungeon, I agree that the immunities are limiting yet disagree in proposed solutions. Poison+Mana Burn just makes GG even more of an effectively correct and also allow you to easily undercut lifesteal/essence drain (although this at least could potentially be organized to some effect). And protective blessing would get really hairy in the final segment when there are 3 (4?) of them packed directly adjacent to each other. Something will change down there though. It just remains to be seen what.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:50 am

Bug report: Riposte and DR don't really work well together if you have low damage.
http://prntscr.com/l6jby6
As you can see, I don't have Life Steal (and this Arbiter is Bloodless anyway) but I GAIN health from hitting him. The combat prediction is accurate here - I hit him after the screenshot. My previous hit on him was 1 damage, and I recovered 12 HP...
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:07 am

shade_of_ox wrote:Bug report: Riposte and DR don't really work well together if you have low damage.
http://prntscr.com/l6jby6
As you can see, I don't have Life Steal (and this Arbiter is Bloodless anyway) but I GAIN health from hitting him. The combat prediction is accurate here - I hit him after the screenshot. My previous hit on him was 1 damage, and I recovered 12 HP...


Haha, nice find! That should be fixed when we touch up Riposte's interactions for the South or patch (among other things, DR will no longer count twice). Are you using the Rat to tackle FF Curious, or just trying your hand with Rat in all the new EE Vicious?
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 am

I was actually trying to tackle FF Curious with Rat, but I'm having some problems so I'll probably just switch over to something a little easier for now - even if I did clear it with the Rat, it would hardly be normal gameplay for me to give feedback on, after all... :lol:
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby srid on Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:58 am

shade_of_ox wrote:Bug report: Riposte and DR don't really work well together if you have low damage.
http://prntscr.com/l6jby6
As you can see, I don't have Life Steal (and this Arbiter is Bloodless anyway) but I GAIN health from hitting him. The combat prediction is accurate here - I hit him after the screenshot. My previous hit on him was 1 damage, and I recovered 12 HP...


Thanks for the bug report, it has already been fixed in the latest development version. Basically the HP gain comes from a miscalculation caused by the Corrosion you have on yourself when computing Riposte damage which happen only when the base Riposte damage is zero.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:19 am

Just found the most interesting subdungeon item to date - the Scrying Orb. I think this was actually in the base game at some point, wasn't it? Maybe the alpha? I wouldn't know, I never played the alpha.

This item makes every character into a Half-Dragon for the purposes of scouting, and makes the Half-Dragon a ridiculously powerful character that can conserve pretty much all blackspace he doesn't want to use. This is the first subdungeon item since Draining Blade that I'd seriously consider prepping for a serious run, because for a regen fighter or Half-Dragon it looks to be unbelievably strong.

I'm struggling a bit with Curious Flooded Foundry. I've gotten navigation down (and if you find PISORF or ENDISWAL you can save some Core Stones for the boss), and I can level fairly efficiently, but I'm having trouble finding a strategy to cover all the bosses.

Prototype 1 having more damage and health really hurts, because it means unless you're using magic to kill it, you end up losing 55 extra HP on the final form - and with each one dealing 105 damage from its attack, you want high resists. TT Reflexes isn't going to cut it because of the sheer amount of attacks you need to dodge, so the best bet seems to be a more tanky build. So magic is obviously the best call here - it has fairly low health and no resists, and spellcasting handles Unstable better than melee.

Prototype 3 has way too much health and resists for a caster approach to be effective. I actually did manage to kill him with a Codex Sorcerer of Jehora, using Chaos Avatar to strip resists a little - that run ended up at Lusory where he spawned a bunch of regular Golems with magic resists, which stopped me from hitting him. A little annoying, because if he spawned literally anything else I could have killed him in 4 fireballs easily...

I think I'm going to try a Gnome Bloodmage of Jehora -> Dracul. Probably will need to scum for ENDISWAL as I'll want corestones to kill the boss. May need to desecrate something like EM because I'll want CA for Prototype 3, at least 1 Boost Health and 1 Boost Mana, and enough piety for Dracul afterwards. Actually, PM might not be bad for Consensus either.
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