Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:43 pm

The Avatar wrote:Um, wow that's a close one. Out of curiosity, did you think you'd won after taking out Balder or not? I never know whether that ends up fooling people or not since no item drops, but we did take time to make it look like a victory staircase.


Yes I did... and I felt robbed :D It felt like a good story conclusion (I saw it coming a mile ago), but then the (hopefully) final boss appeared and we both fell to the ground at the same hit -.-

The Avatar wrote:To speak to your Grandmaster notes:
Spoiler: show
Yeah, if you're getting to 27 health left on H with this then indeed only your beginning is holding you back. Are you not hitting the boss *ever* at level 1? Also, you seem to be severely overvaluing health in this case. Picking up the Pendant of Health gives you +10 health once on level up, and then other marginal benefits when you use health potions/fire heart. +10 health. That's nothing. +Damage from Tri-Sword and using the shield to remove almost a third of Horatio's damage are far more efficient. Furthermore, bloody sigil's -10% damage will also hugely add up if you keep it for long, and it provides even *less* than than the Pendant after you've explored the one tile. Honestly, I'm sort of impressed you even reached 27 health left with those opening moves. Try to get your resist whittling started earlier, value damage more until you're actually restoring health with % based effects, and definitely change your initial moves.


Spoiler: show
Argh, I forgot half the steps! Of course, I use BYSSEPS at lvl 1 to wittle him down before leveling up! But ok, I will try to change up my style by first concentrating on spells, before healing up :)
Nurator
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:02 pm

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:41 pm

All that's really to be said for The Grandmaster is keep at it. There's a ton of tiny decisions which will squeak out a few more damage or lose a few damage (the largest being potion timing with the tri-sword), so try changing exactly one thing at a time and seeing whether it brings the health total lower or not. This can be in the start (i.e. pick up tri-sword or not at level 1), or far later into the run (do you wait for tri-sword to hit +3/+2 base damage or just blow through your health potions as quickly as you can get full value off them to convert Pendant of Health sooner for +10%). Eventually you'll get him down if you repeat this process enough times.
We made an expansion and it is awesome. Really, you should check it out, especially if you're looking for some extra challenge.

Download over at ddmod.weebly.com!
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4667
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:18 pm

This game hates me...

https://ibb.co/mdR980

EDIT:

COME ON!!!!

https://ibb.co/nzrnvf

This is mathematically optimized. I cant go further. Are you sure its possible? Its freaking 1 HP, but I cant go further :D What the hell :D
Nurator
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:02 pm

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:11 pm

Um, wow. I don't think I've ever gotten quite that close without winning. And yes I have won it, although I don't relish the thought of playing through it again to prove it. If that truly is mathematically optimized, then it means you've optimized the wrong branch which indicates a bad early move. I think. I can dedicate a bit of time to this later, so the puzzle might end up getting a 1 health if neither of us can solve it after bashing our heads against it for a fair bit longer.
We made an expansion and it is awesome. Really, you should check it out, especially if you're looking for some extra challenge.

Download over at ddmod.weebly.com!
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4667
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:23 am

http://prntscr.com/l7bxbn
This is the closest I've gotten so far. In this attempt I kept Pendant of Health all the way to the end which I don't think is optimal.

What I'm struggling with here is when to pick up Trisword - the inventory constraints seem to prevent picking it up early, but you're missing out on a lot of damage by not picking it up...
shade_of_ox
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:42 pm

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:36 am

What I was considering with Rogue was a DP build with Namtar's Ward and CYDSTEPP, but I figured it would be too expensive manawise to handle Prototype 1. I kind of forgot how strong a Jehora Rogue was - I should play that build a bit more to remind myself how to play it. I've been playing so many tank-style builds that I've forgotten how to play damage spikers, and even in the Warlord run I was considering taking Elven Boots and Binlor for magic resistance before I remembered that the Warlord really doesn't need resists. I guess that's because the last major thing I did in the vanilla game was clear VGT with all classes.

I'm going to try the Rogue run in Curious FF just to see it in action, but I don't doubt that it works.

By the way, aside from the obvious gimmick in LT Curious, it would too much to hope that the bosses stay the same, right? ;)
shade_of_ox
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:42 pm

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:43 pm

The problem is, even if you reduce the boss by 1 health, my strategy will not work anymore... it is optimized on certain break points and I am fairly certain, no other branch will be better, but not 100% sure there...

But if you dont want to go through the trouble yourself, maybe just tell me your opening move. You said, you remember these steps by heart, right? I know why :D I did mine 1000 times to get to 1 HP...
@shade_of_ox: This puzzle is so crazily precise, you are not even close :D
Nurator
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:02 pm

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:30 pm

Nurator wrote:The problem is, even if you reduce the boss by 1 health, my strategy will not work anymore... it is optimized on certain break points and I am fairly certain, no other branch will be better, but not 100% sure there...

But if you dont want to go through the trouble yourself, maybe just tell me your opening move. You said, you remember these steps by heart, right? I know why :D I did mine 1000 times to get to 1 HP...
@shade_of_ox: This puzzle is so crazily precise, you are not even close :D


Actually, I'm beginning to think my opening move is outdated, because I've only gotten the boss down to 8ish health. But why wouldn't your strategy work if the boss had one less health? Do you quite literally get within 1 damage of triggering berserk, making the 1 health reduction ruin your strategy?

At the same time, I'm still not certain that it is unbeatable. The version before this had 2 less health and I am certain that one was beaten by both me and other players. This version resulted from one of their solutions, so I can dig back through to see if I can find it.

shade_of_ox wrote:What I was considering with Rogue was a DP build with Namtar's Ward and CYDSTEPP, but I figured it would be too expensive manawise to handle Prototype 1. I kind of forgot how strong a Jehora Rogue was - I should play that build a bit more to remind myself how to play it. I've been playing so many tank-style builds that I've forgotten how to play damage spikers, and even in the Warlord run I was considering taking Elven Boots and Binlor for magic resistance before I remembered that the Warlord really doesn't need resists. I guess that's because the last major thing I did in the vanilla game was clear VGT with all classes.

I'm going to try the Rogue run in Curious FF just to see it in action, but I don't doubt that it works.

By the way, aside from the obvious gimmick in LT Curious, it would too much to hope that the bosses stay the same, right? ;)


I mean there's really quite little to think about or say for JJ Rogue. It boils down to high health, higher damage, and first strike, which is quite powerful yet not exactly nuanced. I wouldn't be surprised if you cleaned out FF on your first try with it as I did. As for LT Curious, I think there might not be much more to it than that. There might be, but I'm not going to check to refresh my memory and spoil it for either of us. Plus, although much of Curious effects bosses (as bosses are frequently the main gimmick of their dungeon), the primary intent was always simply amplifying whatever the dungeon gimmick is (so in LT's case the revive). There are a few exceptions to this rule (such as DL), yet for the most part it stays true to form. Plus, I'm not sure LT is that doable as is, considering how hard it'll be to kill all the level 10 Lekon sins. Perhaps the strategy will boil down to letting Lekon full restore and then just killing him with acid caster, but at the same time that seems like it'd have a brutal time leveling up.
We made an expansion and it is awesome. Really, you should check it out, especially if you're looking for some extra challenge.

Download over at ddmod.weebly.com!
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4667
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:42 pm

I think the problem with Lekon's Table Curious is the horrible enemy pool. Curious in particular pretty much forces you to play a striker because of all the debuffs. So I think Rogue would actually be a good call there, as well.

Strategy aside, I'm assuming you haven't balanced this around Yendor? Because if the main gimmick is that leveling is very difficult, Yendor seems like a no-brainer prep that pretty much destroys this dungeon. This is the problem with dungeons where the main challenge is leveling - Yendor usually can just brute force them. I would say, make leveling a little easier, but in exchange make the bosses a little harder.

I think maybe what would be interesting would be to give the player some way to get mark of the Goat. Maybe by killing Cultists (who otherwise are horrible enemies that you would never want to fight). As it is, The One Horn actually seems to be a very solid prep here.
shade_of_ox
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:42 pm

Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:50 pm

http://prntscr.com/l7pw9b

This is why I love Dracul. That's five, count em', FIVE stacks of life steal, thanks to a Draining Blade prep (I didn't find Vampiric Blade though).
The Jehora strat is very strong. No good spawns from shops or anything, aside from Troll Heart - only luck I had was Dracul. Once I found him, I decided to skip out on Chaos Avatar and the third Boost Health to get lifesteal instead. I ran out of corestones thanks to some unlucky island spawns (and Prototype 1 blinked to an island I couldn't reach without spending my last corestone) but that didn't matter as I could use all of the golems on the bottom as bloodcows. 1 fireball and one strike heals me 50 HP, so I think I could have taken down Lusory even if he had 1000 health or more.
If I had found Vampiric Blade in the shops, I think I could have used the Jealous Apprentice himself as a bloodcow. :lol:
shade_of_ox
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:42 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 6 guests

cron