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Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:02 pm

I'm thinking maybe increasing the speed at which the player can apply the burning stacks, in addition to removing the limit on how many you can have, might be a good idea. Perhaps the speed could be something like 1 + level/4? We would have to be careful because if this weren't balanced properly this could create a Rat Monarch - style character with no downsides. Either way, I'd love to see this because I'm always happy to see a spellcasting item that isn't just +max mana.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:39 am

http://prntscr.com/lihy4i
The One Horn is one hell of a drug. 44% resists on my Vampire, and I converted Patches quite early. I think this build could probably even do VGT Curious.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:39 am

Bug report: The One Horn and Wicked Guitar have a pretty great interaction. Wicked Sick an enemy, turn them into a Goat, and you can Wicked Sick them again for another extra level...
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:36 am

Looks like Vampire definitely has a place in EE Vicious...
http://prntscr.com/liippm
http://prntscr.com/liipwa
That's a proof of concept if I've ever seen one. That's 55% resistances on a VAMPIRE. Everything in the end was a bloodcow, pretty much, except for Avatar and Spleen - if I converted The One Horn at the end, I think I could have used Avatar as a bloodcow as well (and he has Crazed Regeneration! too bad he's the final boss...). Did Boss Parade at the end and literally everything except for Tower of Goo and the undead was a bloodcow.
This isn't really a "clean" victory, because I used that bug I just posted to make level 9 goats as bloodcows - however, most of my topside monsters were Meat Men and Dragon Spawn anyway, so I think I would have won with just Wicked Guitar - which, by the way, is a great item for Vampire that I never appreciated before.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby srid on Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:20 pm

So, if I count right, you got 16% from Patches, 3 from the VGT blue scroll (dot remember the name), and 36% from the one Horn. We might want to add a cap there...
Anyway, congrats for beating this with another class than Heretic!

Your point about the Wicked Guitar is very interesting. I'm wondering if this should be considered as a feature or a bug, actually. We should try to see if it works on vanilla's reviving enemies like Cultists for instance.
It could also be quite useful in LT.

Since the Goat transformation keeps the Bloodless and Undead trait, we could indeed propagate Wicked if we consider that this strategy is too game-breaking.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:35 pm

Ritual Scroll gives 5%, so I only got 34% from The One Horn. It's still pretty insane, though.

I've been doing some testing. The Goat transformation from The One Horn does NOT keep Bloodless or Undead. The one in Lekon's Table does, however.
I also just tested the way the Wicked Guitar works on Cultists in vanilla. It raises the level of the Cultist, but when the Zombie is spawned it is the level it was supposed to be (I had a level 3 Cultist after guitar, and he dropped a level 1 Zombie). In LT, it also works in this way.
I wouldn't call this strategy game-breaking really. It's quite resource intensive since you have to carry the Wicked Guitar around for a very long time, especially in VGT Curious where inventory space is so tight in the first place. As for the resist cap, that's not a good idea either - VGT is by far the only dungeon where there is enough EXP to do this (Demonic Library only had enough because I was killing a bunch of optional enemies) and there are still other ways of stacking resists that don't give you corrosion and force you to spend resources on hurting (not killing) enemies in the top level. You pretty much need BURNDAYRAZ for this, which hurts because HALPMEH or GETINDARE (or even WEYTWUT) are just so much better (although you probably want to wait until Siabrae and Frostblades before dropping BURNDAYRAZ).
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:51 pm

I suspect there's enough exp lying around EB to get incredible use out of The One Horn, but it's not really necessary to stack huge resists there.

As for your testing, @shade_of_ox, as far as I can tell there is no bug. The intent of The One Horn is that hitting an exp valuable enemy transforms it into a goat of the same level. That means it drops all traits, including Zotted!, Wicked Sick, Poison Stacks, Undead, Bloodless, or anything else. While most of these aren't abusable, the interaction with Wicked Guitar is a creative way to get more out of both items (which I'd say is a good thing considering The One Horn is frequently overshadowed and Wicked Guitar is frequently meh). This is an entirely separate issue from LT Lekon's Chosen revival, which is fixed at the start of the dungeon and thus *not* effected by Wicked Sick (just like cultists are not). An additional unique quirk of this revival interaction is, as discussed, the preservation of bloodless, magic attack, and undead. This was done to prevent abusing Dracul/MA even more extremely than one already can there, and is not connected to how The One Horn (and really Mark of the Goat as a player buff on the whole) functions.

So Wicked Guitar shenanigans are legit and everything is functioning as it should be. Depending on whether there are more dungeons that allow the player to reach a staggering XP count, The One Horn might receive a change, but for now have a blast with it. (If it did receive a change, the reasoning would be predominately just to reduce overlap with the Dragon Shield, but it no longer breaking high exp dungeons would be a potentially positive side effect.)
We made an expansion and it is awesome. Really, you should check it out, especially if you're looking for some extra challenge.

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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:07 am

Yeah, EB has about as much EXP as DL, but resists hardly benefit you in that dungeon, so it's probably not worth trying.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby srid on Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:54 am

We made an expansion and it is awesome. Really, you should check it out, especially if you're looking for some extra challenge.

Download over at ddmod.weebly.com!
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby maya on Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:23 am

the problem with removing burning cap to me is mainly with goblin wizard (and possibly goblin chemist) pulling off some, let's say interesting level 1 (or low level depending on when they find the boss) shenanigans because if a wizard regens 10 tiles they level up their burn dmg because they applied 4 burn stacks, combine this with the goblins ability to level off conversions and you get some absolutely disgusting burst like this burst could probably kill frozen dragon and item's like dragon soul, crystal ball and blud2powa further this insanity.

a secondary problem is that this generally means nothing in regular play because how many times do you actually reach the stack limit? apart from levels 1 and 2 you just probably don't and even then the payout is usually worse than fireball mage ring though that might seem hard to conceptualize. at level 7 it would require 84 mana to reach the stack limit for regular classes and 35 mana for a wizard (and 42 under the "1 + level/4" (also if this change just straight up gives you an additional burn stack at level 1 the item is broken on wizard as 4 burn stacks at level 4 is nuts)) which if you have that much black space/ mana left to willingly burn then congrats you already won the dungeon in most cases and so your prep meant very little. this was the main reason I didn't fully recommend the idea in the first place

also how would magician even work with this item? unlimited burn stacks? yes please. 20 mana kill anything? yes please though this would never be allowed.
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