Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONAFYT?

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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:32 am

What if WONAFYT monsters gave reduced experience? Like, maybe only a single point?
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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby FDru on Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:50 am

Sidestepper wrote:What if WONAFYT monsters gave reduced experience? Like, maybe only a single point?


Uh, then it would be even worse than it is now? :?
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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby The Avatar on Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:08 am

What if WONAFYT monsters gave reduced experience? Like, maybe only a single point?


What???????

Why would you ever do that???

If could get 11 exp or 1 it's pretty obvious I want 11
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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:21 am

No I mean it creates an entirely new monster but that monster isn't worth full experience
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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby Darvin on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:47 am

The problem I have with creating new monsters is that this would completely change the way you play. The goal would be to fill the dungeon with low-mid level monsters for fodder as you approach higher levels. A paladin with undead and bloodmage with blood pools in particular would get a lot of extra resources out of this. At the same time, for a naive "straightforward" purpose this still has the same problem as the existing glyph that I don't want to be fighting a monster that's equal or lower level than me, even if it's not depleting long-term assets.
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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby The Avatar on Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:04 pm

I would say temporarily increase the monsters level by one until you regenerate, but warlord or rogues with precasted death protections could abuse this...
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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby dislekcia on Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:55 pm

The main reason Wonafyt and Byseps are seen as weak is that you're all relying on items that are too strong. We're going through a round of item nerfs and adjustments, which will hopefully re-elevate the glyphs (that aren't Cydstep) back to unique and interesting parts of the game.

I keep using Wonafyt early-game if I find it, helps me conserve regen and/or create nice little non-blocking monster/blood pool gardens for later. Byseps is also designed as more of an early-game glyph, although it's definitely useful for extra damage when you're not super boosted by high damage items. Remember that conversion late game is not neccessarily a bad thing: You can't convert from shops, so finding a glyph you're not going to use is still good.
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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby Darvin on Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:09 am

I keep using Wonafyt early-game if I find it, helps me conserve regen and/or create nice little non-blocking monster/blood pool gardens for later.

Attacking monsters equal or lower level than you is a significant opportunity cost in lost bonus XP, far exceeding what you lose to exploration. The blood pool problem no longer applies, either, now that they are no longer drained if you are at full health. Furthermore, this glyph is positively pointless once you've explored about a third of the map, which should give you a wide selection of monsters that are lower-level than you to attack, so there's no longer any purpose to using it. A glyph that's completely useless that early in the game needs revamping, end of story.

The main reason Wonafyt and Byseps are seen as weak is that you're all relying on items that are too strong

I disagree; BYSSEPS is currently synergizing with the overpowered Trisword, and doesn't really stand to gain or lose from items getting weaker in general. Furthermore, the fundamental issue remains that it's competing for valuable and limited inventory space; even with weaker items that competition doesn't change. As a non-stackable low-cost/low-gain effect, it's one of the first things to get converted as your inventory fills up.

Remember that conversion late game is not neccessarily a bad thing

But if it's always converted late game that's a problem. Unless you're a wizard, the odds are that you're only going to find 2-3 glyphs in the early-game. This means there's a roughly 50% chance that a glyph will only be discovered once you're already a mid-level character. Especially given that glyphs like HALPMEH and CYDSTEPP perform very well at all levels, I find it problematic to have too many glyphs that are strong early and weak late.

We already have ENDISWAL and BLUDTUPOWA which are exploration-based. We already have IMAWAL that stops being useful once you're no longer earning bonus XP to really cash in on that multiplier. We already have LEMMISI which just doesn't do much on many level layouts (was much better in the alpha where most dungeons had lots of inaccessible tiles, but most beta dungeons have relatively few). We've got too much conversion fodder as it is.


Remember that conversion late game is not neccessarily a bad thing: You can't convert from shops, so finding a glyph you're not going to use is still good.

There are also loads of kick-ass early-game items that will be hitting the conversion bin about this time. Pendant of Health, Gloves of Midas, Patches, Vampiric Blade... all of these stop performing in the end-game and get cycled out.
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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby gjaustin on Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:51 am

dislekcia wrote:The main reason Wonafyt and Byseps are seen as weak is that you're all relying on items that are too strong. We're going through a round of item nerfs and adjustments, which will hopefully re-elevate the glyphs (that aren't Cydstep) back to unique and interesting parts of the game.

I keep using Wonafyt early-game if I find it, helps me conserve regen and/or create nice little non-blocking monster/blood pool gardens for later. Byseps is also designed as more of an early-game glyph, although it's definitely useful for extra damage when you're not super boosted by high damage items. Remember that conversion late game is not neccessarily a bad thing: You can't convert from shops, so finding a glyph you're not going to use is still good.


Ooh, item nerfs. This excites me.

I hope you buff Martyr Wraps too while you're at it.
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Re: Is there ever any reason to not immediately convert WONA

Postby TigerKnee on Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:43 am

Byseps isn't even good early game by itself. You need Halpmeh (or alternatively, Fireball) in order to get full effect out of it. If I get Byseps early but alone, even on a purist it usually doesn't actually help (e.g I still take 3 hits to kill an enemy, even though my 3 hits are technically stronger), and if you got Halpmeh to pair up with it, it's honestly a little superflous.

In the old system where glyphs and item are seperate I might consider keeping it around until something better but on a race with instant conversion benefits (not the potion races, that is), there really isn't many times I can think where I would not convert it straight away.
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