Locker Space!!!

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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby Blovski on Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:28 pm

^
Basically agree with everything Fall_Ark's said but I kind of got sold on this by the unique kingdom states point.

And given I said the prepping one, scumming for another thing in another thread... think I should put that in context. I used it as an example of some advantage you could get by repeated low-odds scumming (as a counter-example to balancing something based on the idea of the chance of scumming for it) if you're desperate for it rather than as any sort of request/an example of a thing I/or other vets do...

The main thing with this is that it's incredibly frustrating for using/exploring a range of prepped strats - it hurts experimentation more by discouraging people from testing out new prep combinations. So, to try out my Healthmonster strategy I had to take three runs to go and shop for the fire heart. I really think part of the reason it took so long for anyone to find strategies really exploiting that item is that the prep limit means people are loathe to drop some of the more obligatory-for-vicious or special items in order to try oddball things. If I want to try out a rock-heart prepped orc wizard with current Binlor I'll have to go out specifically to find a rock heart first (i.e. scum for it), drop an item I currently use lots or a vicious trophy item I like having in the cabinet and then go out and find that item I use lots the next time I want to prep it.

So yeah, it's an undeniably frustrating system but I'm kind of satisfied as to why it's there. If there's some way of alleviating the problem of how squeezed the turnover is that'd be lovely but I can't see an obvious one. The additional buyable locker slots help a little (I've got one).
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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:02 pm

Aequitas wrote:
fall_ark wrote:Actually there's better parallel here: We can prepare every single deity. With some drawbacks, sure. But we can do it. Somehow it doesn't lead to everyone asking for the ability to prep 2 gods and combo them.


The fact that people talk about "prepping one god, and scumming for another" speaks to me that they'd love to have full control over all god spawns.


I think that's more for Pactmaker than anything else.

My thoughts are that a limit on locker items is absolutely a great idea. It's just that 6 is a little low, considering the number of items has roughly doubled since the Beta began.

Even just two more slots would let you cover the base items (resist item, damage item, caster item, Tri-sword) and then have four slots to play around with the items you think are fun (e.g. Balanced Dagger, Rock Heart, Whrrgarbl, etc).

Alternatively, significantly reducing the cost of the locker upgrades (so that you could get 1 or 2 more before making out) would help.
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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby Sidestepper on Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:57 pm

dislekcia wrote:Generally, the fact that people are complaining about locker slots sorta means that we're doing the right thing with them. We called it before on the blog: There will never be enough lockers, if we were to have a system that would allow you to have all the locker slots ever, the first thing everyone would want is the ability to take in two items so that they could combo them, right?


That doesn't follow at all. Bringing in more than one item at no in dungeon cost would throw everything completely out of whack, and no one has ever even brought the suggestion up. I have little to add other than I agree with fall_ark and blovski, although I do not agree with blovski's conclusion that the frustration and grind time justifies the limit.

I play video games for fun, and if I have to do unfun grinding then I will simply not play at all. This is way I don't play WoW or Diablo or other grindy repetitive click-fests. If trying out new strategies means 10-15 minutes of mindless shop hunting, then I will simply never try new strategies because I could be doing something fun instead.
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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby dislekcia on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:13 pm

So what a lot of you are saying is that playing a normal dungeon isn't fun anymore.

I consider playing a game or two of DD, even if I'm not pushing a specific strat that I want to try, fun and engaging (because it keeps catching me, even when I'm supposed to be testing). So basically, if playing the game normally isn't fun and the only way to get enjoyment from DD is to try a hardcore strategy, then yeah, I get where the "everything locker" idea coming from. It's just not coming from the same space that we're designing the game from...
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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby Sidestepper on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:29 pm

dislekcia wrote:So what a lot of you are saying is that playing a normal dungeon isn't fun anymore.

I consider playing a game or two of DD, even if I'm not pushing a specific strat that I want to try, fun and engaging (because it keeps catching me, even when I'm supposed to be testing). So basically, if playing the game normally isn't fun and the only way to get enjoyment from DD is to try a hardcore strategy, then yeah, I get where the "everything locker" idea coming from. It's just not coming from the same space that we're designing the game from...


What? No. That's not what we're saying at all. Most of my games are purist runs against random dungeons.

What we're saying is that have time to play DD only a few times in the week. During the intervening time, I might think of some interesting ideas, but if there is a time barrier between me and the new approach, then I will just play a normal game instead and not bother doing the prep work for a new strat. I am interested in blovski's healthmonster approach, but every time I actually get a block of time to play, I find myself way more interested in actually playing the game then searching for a fireheart, so I don't bother. There is also the nagging knowledge that I will have to replace whatever I throw out once I'm done with the novelty. This is a 'tax' on the fun of trying new things, so I simply choose not to do them. In the end video games only offer entertainment, so any time I waste on DD in which I don't even have fun is a double tragedy.

It looks like you are saying that I should just play normally until I find a fireheart naturally, but that isn't very realistic. It is likely that even if I do find the fireheart, I either won't be able to afford it because I bought something else, or don't want it because it is a poor fit for the game I am currently playing. Playing to find a specific item requires suboptimal and somewhat annoying play, or requires you to play a hell of a lot. It is tolerable for things like the philosopher's tone because that is a one time investment with no further tax, but is real downer when you're trying to explore new approaches.
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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby Darvin on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:30 pm

The fact that people talk about "prepping one god, and scumming for another" speaks to me that they'd love to have full control over all god spawns.

The primary "other" is Pactmaker, whose entire existence revolves around combo'ing off with other gods.

So what a lot of you are saying is that playing a normal dungeon isn't fun anymore.

Playing because I want to is fun. Playing because I'm looking for a specific item to do what I actually want to do is not.
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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby Sidestepper on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:40 pm

I think that the primary demotivator is that changing locker load outs ultimately means having to repeat something that you've already done when you are ready to go back. Getting the Dragonshield is fun when you are in the mood for some Dragon Isles action, but is pure grind when you just want to play around with stacking resistances in Venture Cave.

It isn't the finding that sucks, it is the replacing.
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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby subanark on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:44 pm

dislekcia wrote:So what a lot of you are saying is that playing a normal dungeon isn't fun anymore.

I consider playing a game or two of DD, even if I'm not pushing a specific strat that I want to try, fun and engaging (because it keeps catching me, even when I'm supposed to be testing). So basically, if playing the game normally isn't fun and the only way to get enjoyment from DD is to try a hardcore strategy, then yeah, I get where the "everything locker" idea coming from. It's just not coming from the same space that we're designing the game from...

I've been loading up a PQI about once per day. I just don't think that having useful perks for lots of gold is the way to go. A simple "kingdom beautification" would work better.
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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby fall_ark on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:06 pm

dislekcia wrote:So what a lot of you are saying is that playing a normal dungeon isn't fun anymore.

I consider playing a game or two of DD, even if I'm not pushing a specific strat that I want to try, fun and engaging (because it keeps catching me, even when I'm supposed to be testing). So basically, if playing the game normally isn't fun and the only way to get enjoyment from DD is to try a hardcore strategy, then yeah, I get where the "everything locker" idea coming from. It's just not coming from the same space that we're designing the game from...


Chicken is delicious. Doesn't mean I'll always crave chicken. If your restaurant only provides other courses after the customer orders several chicken-related dishes, I'm discouraged from trying those steaks and lambs because I don't always want to stuff myself with chickens first, especially if I'm craving steaks and lambs.

Sure, not a perfect metaphor. Whatever. The point is there's more fun to be had than just doing normal runs. That's why you guys design different dungeons, varied monsters, new items, and unique puzzles week after week. Otherwise you'd stop after the generic normal dungeon and call it a day, right?

I mean, we all (well, at least I myself) understand that the current system isn't "broken", and if there's more important issues to tackle, it'll be fine if the game is shipped with 6 lockers with 20000+ for each additional slot. It's very inconvenient and frustrating and kills many fun thoughts (which, by the way, are not mutually exclusive with other fun thoughts, like "normal dungeons"), but it's not experience-ruining. And we understand that not giving in to every player request is essential in developing a good game.

What I do want to hear, is an argument against, say, infinite lockers, as it is (so no slippery slope arguments, please). What will be lost? The first is what you seemingly want to achieve - to make players fret over lockerable item selections; The second seems to be the decision whether to scum or not. Both I'd rather do without, to be honest.
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Re: Locker Space!!!

Postby berpdreyfuss on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:54 pm

"to make players fret over lockerable item selections" is fine, and I enjoy deciding which Item to keep and which to give away. I think the infinite lockers should be an achievement which you can get if you are far in the game because that's the point where you start thinking about special combination or want to try special hard challenges.
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