Improving and Changing Gods!

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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby The Avatar on Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:09 am

I'm still nominating Darvin's suggestion!

See item or God changes...(Page 3)
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby TigerKnee on Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:32 am

As far as the original topic goes (The gods are one area where I don't feel like suggesting changes)...

Taurog - Is crap. The nerf made sense when items was low-powered and Taurog's equipment boon were really great compared to most of the items you can buy in shops but like certain other context-based nerfs, once everything else changed he became obselote except for piety farming certain dungeons.

I want 5 damage Fine Sword back and maybe 8 damage Skullpicker please. I think it's hilarious how FS got nerfed to 4 just so that Skull could be 5 (and still be a bad item)

Binlor - Most of his boons are terrible, except for the resistance lowering one which is niche but also quite powerful in certain areas (e.g the north dungeon with two golem bosses) but he's one of the best at piety farming and his free wall breaking glyph is so nice so I can't actually say that he sucks. Yes, he's terribly lopsided but he does have more uses than Taurog!

I think my no.1 priority change would be to make Stone Skin NOT require first strike to get the extra damage. That's just silly.

TT - He has 2 good buffs, one average buff (that's dodging) and the potion conversions aren't good right now but would probably be okay at like 10 piety. Needs some good early ways to get piety. So overall, the dude's not actually low on the gods tier list.

Edit: Despite some terrible balance outliers like Taurog, this version of DD still has better deities than Alpha, where taking gods like MA is just gimping yourself even worse than Taurog most of the time and everyone went Pactmaker, JJ/Dracul by a VERY far margin or just went Atheist.

So remember, it could be worse!
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby Darvin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:06 am

Despite some terrible balance outliers like Taurog, this version of DD still has better deities than Alpha

I find the deity problems in alpha were somewhat overstated. It certainly had problems, but most of the deities were in-line with each other. If you didn't scum to find Pactmaker at level 1, he went from being obscenely overpowered to just your run-of-the-mill overpowered. I found Jehora, Binlor, Dracul, and Earthmother were about equal peers (lots of people hate the EM for her tendency to trap you, but the potential windfall of stoneform makes it worth the gamble if you find her at level 1). If you're willing to scum to find Pactmaker at level 1 then he's strongest by a longshot, but otherwise he's about equal to Glowing Guardian in terms of strength, and many of the other deities are actually comparable. Tikki Tooki, Taurog, and Mystera were the only gimped ones, and even they had their uses.

That said, I totally agree with your sentiment that it could be worse.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby The Avatar on Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:10 am

They seriously need to buff Taurogs stuff. (Assuming we don't go with Darvin's idea)
How bout:
Skullpicker: 10 damage
Werward: -2 damage per level
Cliffstompers: 30% attack bonus
Armor(forgot name): 15% resist both
Will: Enables unstoppable fury
Unstoppable fury (need will only): Same
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby Darvin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:41 am

One of the reasons I don't like the current Taurog is that all his effects are really bland. They just make you somewhat stronger, which can be achieved by a variety of means. Most of the other gods offer effects that you can't get elsewhere. Right now, the only thing Taurog offers that's hard to come by is base damage, and since the Skullpicker nerf that's been too little.

In any case, I really think Taurog needs a rework; trading off mana for combat power is something a lot of classes can't even consider doing, and a deity whose boons are useless for more than half of the game's classes needs serious attention.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby JonahHollow on Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:20 am

Darvin wrote:Here are some ideas for deities:

Mystera
On worship:
+10 piety for every glyph in your inventory or revealed on the map; all remaining glyphs on the map teleported to her alter.

Glyph Magnet:
Costs 20 piety. Creates 1 random glyph at the alter. This is repeatable, and will not create duplicate glyphs that already exist. This boon will fail if there is one of every glyph on the field.

Magic:
Costs 30+20 piety. +5 mana, +1 mana regen per tile, -3 health regeneration per tile. (This can cause negative regeneration, which means it is difficult to combo with BLUDTUPOWA or if you repeat it too much)

Weakening:
Costs 30+10 piety, reduces BOTH physical and magic resist by 10%.


Tikki Tooki:
Special Brew:
Costs 25 piety and grants 10 gold; takes 1 healing potion and creates 1 quicksilver and 1 reflex potion. This replaces quicksilver and reflex potion.

Masquerade:
Costs 25 piety and grants 10 gold; allows you to purchase a single boon from another alter, even if you do not follow that god. Repeatable (I think we can all agree that this would make Tikki Tooki a very strong deity).


I really like you're ideas for changing these gods boons, especially the Tikki Tooki one.
With the Skullpicker, well I didn't know it use to do 8 damage, and the fine sword 5. But I was thinking to myself that it was just silly that the finesword did 4, and that the Skullpicker only did one point more. I think they should just change the damage on the Skullpicker to 7.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby q 3 on Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:51 am

The easiest fix to Taurog would be to remove the MP penalty from his boons. Leave everything else the same, maybe increase the piety cost for each by 5-10 (or reduce piety gain from kills by 1). There are certainly more interesting things that could be done with him, but this would be a simple and effective fix that should bring him in line with most of the other deities. Although giving Skullpicker something like 15% phys resist pierce, with its piety cost rising a bit, would certainly be welcome. Have his punishment be a hefty reduction in max MP.

Easiest 'fix' for Tikki Tooki - have his potion boons no longer consume health/mana potions, but also remove the +10 gold from them and increase their piety cost by 25 each use. Punish by giving monsters first strike and counter fireball, instead of weaken.

With Dracul, I agree that Blood Tithe should probably be reduced in effectiveness after each use, but only if either his boons are bumped back up a bit or he starts giving a bit more piety for other things (say, +3 per kill). Have his penalty be -1/2 max HP or -20 max HP, whichever is the greater value, killing the player instantly if max HP is already 1.

There probably isn't any easy fix for Mystera; I generally like Darvin's ideas, with a few caveats. Only one or the other on-worship effect should take place, not both. Teleporting one glyph, with priority to BURNDAYRAZ, would be a useful enough effect without being overpowered. Glyph Magnet creating glyphs would probably need to be a bit more expensive, something like 40 piety or 30+15 if repeatable, and the glyphs it generates would of course need to be worth 0 conversion points. Magic would probably be easier as a one time boon, something like 80 piety for +10 max mana and +1 mana regen per tile, but health regeneration is permanently turned off (i.e. inherent BLUDTOPOWA, with the glyph no longer working). I also think Flames either needs to be boosted to +2 damage per level or have the attack penalty significantly reduced.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby Darvin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:19 am

Punish by giving monsters first strike and counter fireball

Then he doesn't have any effect on those who lack first strike themselves and use either CYDSTEPP or HALPMEH. And he still has no effect on PISORF characters. I think you have to be more mindful of a Paladin or Warlord than you do of any character with BURNDAYRAZ.

With Dracul, I agree that Blood Tithe should probably be reduced in effectiveness after each use, but only if either his boons are bumped back up a bit or he starts giving a bit more piety for other things (say, +3 per kill)

I'd agree to that; have reduced returns from blood tithe and more piety from other sources.

I'd also add that I think blood hunger needs a buff. It's pretty worthless except for low-level characters and piety farming, but its piety cost is so high that by the time you can afford this boon it's no longer relevant.

Only one or the other on-worship effect should take place, not both.

The idea is that Mystera gives a benefit for every glyph that's currently in play. Those that you have revealed grant piety, those you haven't revealed are immediately brought to you. Since Mystera punishes glyph conversions, I think giving you a bonus for every glyph that remains in play is a merited.

Glyph Magnet creating glyphs would probably need to be a bit more expensive, something like 40 piety or 30+15 if repeatable, and the glyphs it generates would of course need to be worth 0 conversion points

I'd agree with the 0 conversion point caveat. I don't think it needs an increasing cost, since it's a bit of a gamble and you might get exactly what you want the first time or you might have to try a few times. If your first attempt was a lemon, you shouldn't be facing a higher cost to try again.

Magic would probably be easier as a one time boon, something like 80 piety for +10 max mana and +1 mana regen per tile, but health regeneration is permanently turned off (i.e. inherent BLUDTOPOWA, with the glyph no longer working).

I'd agree that making it a 1-time boon is probably for the best, even though I like the idea that it could be made scaling. Anything to deal with Mystera's silly BLUDTUPOWA synergy would definitely be welcome.

I also think Flames either needs to be boosted to +2 damage per level or have the attack penalty significantly reduced

I'd prefer changing its penalty.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby The Avatar on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:40 pm

How abOut giving monsters 5% physical resist?
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby Zaratustra on Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:51 pm

Darvin wrote:Basically for both Taurog and TT if you're going pure magic there's no reason not to knock out those alters, and if you're going to be doing any physical attacks then you don't even want to consider angering these deities. This is part of a larger problem I see with the deity lineup currently (this is true of everyone except Jehora), that either the penalty is so huge that you can never even consider taking it, or it really has no impact on you so the penalty is meaningless.


I just want to say it's nice to have at least a few decisions in the game be obvious for a given build, else you're left paralyzed wondering whether it's better to have +5% resistance against corrosion in exchange for 7 plants in the battlefield. Taurog is pretty much the only "straightforward" god, and a huge help when you're starting.
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