The Fighter

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Re: The Fighter

Postby The Avatar on Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:17 pm

Hmm... I didn't mean exactly equal, I meant you shouldn't always play class "x" because it is better than everything else.
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Re: The Fighter

Postby pRaz on Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:16 pm

The Avatar wrote:All classes should be equal to encourage all players to play all classes


I disagree. It's in the spirit of roguelikes to have classes that are generally flat-out handicapped, and in this specific game it keeps things challenging as you have to complete more complicated dungeons with "weaker" classes like the Fighter.
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Re: The Fighter

Postby dislekcia on Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:41 pm

That's an interesting point about balance actually: You don't want equal in everything, you simply want to avoid better in everything. Yes, every class does things better than the fighter, but that's kinda the point to the class: It has to work like that in order to be a baseline. We really can't do anything else to him without upsetting that comparison scale.

Also, while certain items may work better for other classes, it's really only the Fighter (and the Tinker, now - Funny that people like the Tinker) that can make use of pretty much anything you find in a dungeon. A good Fighter player should never be disappointed in a dungeon run, they're playing the king of generalists, after all.
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Re: The Fighter

Postby JonahHollow on Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:52 am

You're admantant about changing the fighter, which didn't actually really bother me, but do you plan on trying to balance out the monk later on?
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Re: The Fighter

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:06 am

Also, while certain items may work better for other classes, it's really only the Fighter (and the Tinker, now - Funny that people like the Tinker) that can make use of pretty much anything you find in a dungeon.


Really, there isn't many classes I can think of that can't use many items. The only thing I can think off my head is that Rogues can't use Health potions if they don't have enough health and old Monks probably wouldn't like damage items.

Also you don't have enough money to buy everything in a dungeon and finding something like Soul Orb on a dungeon with no mana burners will still make Fighter unhappy (although it makes everyone else unhappy too if not for conversion)

But urgh, whatever. There's enough classes in the game that I can live with a blank slot where the Fighter stands. I just don't understand the stubborn stance of keeping someone designed around a gameplay balance that has completely changed, ala Demigods in Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.
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Re: The Fighter

Postby The Avatar on Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:25 am

Hmm... TigerKnee has a point. Why wouldn't you want 10% damage and a death protection, for example. Fighter is a good baseline, but I think you should make him more inclined to fighting. Something like +20% damage. I think as thief as the baseline, because it is okay at everything, but great at nothing.
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Re: The Fighter

Postby Zaratustra on Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:13 am

I like a bonus to attack. Alternatively, a suggestion for Pit Dog:
- Starts with 1 layer of death protection, using death protection recovers HP/MP to 50%
A rather minor bonus that only has strategical value to more advanced player.
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Re: The Fighter

Postby The Avatar on Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:18 am

Restating my point: Fighters should be good a fighting. Thieves are a better baseline, because they are good at all, but great at nothing.
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Re: The Fighter

Postby Darvin on Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:28 am

Also, while certain items may work better for other classes, it's really only the Fighter (and the Tinker, now - Funny that people like the Tinker) that can make use of pretty much anything you find in a dungeon

The fighter, moreso than any class, is a tabula rasa. It's less that he "works better" with any approach, and more that he has no natural approach of his own and what you can do with him is really defined by what glyphs and items you find.

The Tinker is a gambler class that really depends on what's for sale in the shops. If he were introduced prior to the 50-gold bank preparation or the elite-items shop preparation I'd be dismissing him right now. Definitely one of the last classes you'd want to play purist with, but pretty solid with a bunch of preps to make use of his alchemy toolkit.


A good Fighter player should never be disappointed in a dungeon run, they're playing the king of generalists, after all.

I disagree strongly with this sentiments. Very few classes in this game have crippling specialization (rogue, berserker, monk, and maybe wizard) which means virtually anyone should be able to make due on lower difficulty dungeons with a bad run of shops and glyphs. I feel like you're just setting the bar lower for the fighter.


Rogues can't use Health potions if they don't have enough health

Worse than that; health potions are based on max health, so rogues actually get almost no benefit from drinking health potions. If you want to do healing as a rogue, you need to use HALPMEH (which actually works very well for dwarf rogues). The rogue is one of a handful of cripplingly over-specialized classes. On any reasonably difficult level, it's CYDSTEPP or bust.


Also you don't have enough money to buy everything in a dungeon and finding something like Soul Orb on a dungeon with no mana burners will still make Fighter unhappy (although it makes everyone else unhappy too if not for conversion)

Actually Soul Orb is pretty nice for conversion points. 65 conversion for 15 gold? It's basically the next best thing after bloody sigil and troll heart.


I think as thief as the baseline, because it is okay at everything, but great at nothing.

Quite to the contrary, the thief is great at just about any approach if you've got the right race for it. With more bonuses in play, he ends up being stronger overall than most other classes and he can leverage health potions to supplement his mana or his mana potions to supplement his health even if he cannot use both kinds. While the thief is naturally inclined as a hybrid, it's entirely possible to play him as a pure brawler or pure caster.
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Re: The Fighter

Postby pRaz on Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:40 pm

JonahHollow wrote:You're admantant about changing the fighter, which didn't actually really bother me, but do you plan on trying to balance out the monk later on?


At the point I'm at in the game (just now playing more of the "Hard" level dungeons) Monks actually don't seem underpowered to me at all. A Halfling Monk with the Tri-Sword is quite good, and becomes flat-out ridiculous if Taurog is generated. Making the "baseline" Monk more powerful would make a well-prepared or lucky Monk TOO powerful.
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