OMG Vampires <3

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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:17 am

So when everyone is saying "Vampires suck", are we all doing it consciously or is this one of those "irony" things I keep hearing about?

I don't have any weighing in on the subject right now. My save file doesn't have crypts done for some reason so I gotta do it.
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby q 3 on Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:22 am

Vampires are, in a way, the inverse of their alpha incarnation. At levels 1-4, they completely dominate; at level 5+, they really struggle unless you started worshiping Dracul early, and even with him they have definite limitations.

I think it would be reasonable to give Vampires normal MP regen; that would give them a couple more semi-viable deity options and a reason to hold on to glyphs other than BURNDAYRAZ, without making them overpowered (you'd still want to avoid too much exploration late in the dungeon, since their HP regen sucks). Giving them alternate means of MP regen would risk turning them into Transmuters, with a ridiculously large potential mana pool that can be replenished without the risk of monsters also regenerating. (And I don't know if this was the intention or not, but I really hope that it's not a matter of no MP regen without BLUDTOPOWA but that they can regenerate with that glyph. It's annoying enough to scum for Dracul just to make the class viable; I'd hate to have to scum for a specific glyph, too.)

Tinkers would like to inform you that Scout Shops needs to return. Or you could just give Tinkers a shop sense - that would be a lot more useful than the location of stairs, I think.
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby Crawly McCrawlsa on Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:00 am

Shop sense would be a lot more useful than stair location for tinker. Really? do I need to know where the subdungeon is? I probably won't need its exploration till much later, and its reward is certainly not needed till past level 5. I'm sure i'd stumble upon it by then.
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:37 pm

Just unlocked the Vampire and played with him a bit.

Either I'm really missing something or you're having a contest to make a class worse than the fighter, because the Vampire has decent abilities... ruined by the fact that he has crippling weaknesses that prevent him from taking advantage of them e.g Lifesteal is great if you have high resistance... gee, guess what Vampires can't get? Also, Mana Burn immunity would be a pretty strong ability... but not if you can't regenerate mana anyway!
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby The Avatar on Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:46 pm

The no mana regen is crippling. Also, it's no fun having a class where you basically need dracul to do reasonably. I think Damned should be no worshiping gods and 1 hp regen. I mean without gods, the max resist you can get is 28 Physical, and 33% magical (Dragon Shield + Tower Shield + Elven Boots), and not being able to get massive lifesteal from dracul would be punishing enough to offset the mana regen and resistances.
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby q 3 on Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:12 am

Tinkers knowing where subdungeons are makes it a lot easier to scum for treasure subdungeons. I'm not sure if that's a good thing - getting the armory at level 1 is a huge boost, especially on a purist run, while the gold vault is nearly always a big boost, so it's sub-optimal for a Tinker not to scum for them. (Perfectly optimal play would of course require all classes to scum for them, but considering all of the other things you'd be scumming for as well, perfectly optimal play involves tedium bordering on madness.) The monster room, on the other hand, is nearly useless unless you have lifesteal, a Blue Bead, or are worshiping Tikki Tooki. (Taurog, too, I suppose, but Tinkers hate Taurog almost as much as Vampires hate Glowing Guardian.)

On a related note, I think it would be nice to have different kinds of entrances for the treasure subdungeons - ones that don't require wall-destroying powers, which not all classes have access to all of the time. Maybe the gold vault is guarded by a special monster (maybe a Leprechaun)? Maybe one requires you to pay (via a specialty shop) to enter? Maybe one of the walls surrounding the stairs is revealed to be a secret passage if it's hit by LEMMISI?
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby Darvin on Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:54 am

Finally made time to unlock the vampire... and I think we now have a class that's actually weaker than the fighter. You need to get copious sums of bonus XP in your early levels to even have a shot of success later, leaving large numbers of low-level monsters around as XP fodder. And this is on normal dungeons, which with good preparations should be a cake-walk. Any boss with reasonable damage is going to rip the vampire to shreds.
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby The Avatar on Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:30 am

As I said, make damned be no worshiping gods and 1 hp regen. The no mana regen is crippling, and being able to have resistances counteracts not being able to have gods. If this is still too powerful, make spells cost both hp and mp.
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby q 3 on Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:44 am

I don't think Vampires need such a drastic overhaul, and major changes could easily make them unbalanced. No gods and normal resists would probably be overpowered if you're fully geared up with the Dragon Shield, etc. (unlike fixed damage reduction, lifesteal applies after resists, making a combination of the two super effective), and woefully underpowered on a purist run (where you're unlikely to get any resistances at all, and will be screwed without the additional support that a deity can provide). I think leaving Vampires as-is, but adding normal MP regen, should get them close to usable - normal MP regen opens up a lot more deity options, with JJ in particular having very helpful boons, and Binlor/Mystera providing enough starting piety to make use of Pactmaker or Tikki Tooki (or even Earthmother, if you're clever). If that's not enough, a slight reduction in their conversion cost, or a slight increase in their offense (maybe instead of +1 HP per conversion, they get +2% base damage) should suffice.
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby Darvin on Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:20 am

I'd agree that allowing them to have resists would push them over the edge; too much stacking. The biggest issue right now is their synergy with Dracul, both in terms of piety gain and the fact that they can really stack up with life-steal. Once their mana issue is death with, I suspect they'll have a similar love affair with the GETINDARE glyph. First strike works wonders for the vampire.

Their lifesteal already makes them really good against low-damage enemies. Even in this current weak incarnations, a vampire has no issues clearing out the (hard difficulty) Indomitable. Put him against someone with higher damage output and that's another matter.
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