Goblins...?

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Re: Goblins...?

Postby The Avatar on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:48 am

I disagree, whenever I don't have a specific item to bring, Dwarves with a dragon shield and 2 hp to 2 attack is GREAT!

And yeah, elf CP should be 60 because right now spell casters are worse than melee people by far, ever since the piercing wand, BMR, and blood power nerfs, cause mystera is USELESS!
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Darvin on Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:51 am

Unless you're trying to survive Bleaty or something, I find human is the better bet. If you end up using HALPMEH to sustain yourself, the dwarf's racial bonus is all but wasted because your real staying power in combat is your mana.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby The Avatar on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:00 am

Hmm... I suppose so... But the main important difference is if the extra shots from the dwarf outweigh the extra damage from the human. In the indomitable's case dwarf is a better choice.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby subanark on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:39 am

My vote for goblin is:
100 conversion points: +1 health regen per tile.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Darvin on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:45 am

Hmm... I suppose so... But the main important difference is if the extra shots from the dwarf outweigh the extra damage from the human. In the indomitable's case dwarf is a better choice.

The Indomitable is a special case. There really is no other boss like him, and damage is not nearly as valuable as it usually is.

Anyways, it comes down to how many extra hits you can survive with a dwarf than you can with a human. If a human gets 4 attacks and a dwarf gets 5, then the human probably came out ahead. I find dwarf needs at least 33% more hits to make up the difference, and if HALPMEH is on the field he's unlikely to get that.

100 conversion points: +1 health regen per tile.

With high resists and some damage boosting items, that'd be a downright crazy regen fighter.
Last edited by Darvin on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Alweth on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:45 am

I really want to caution against simply lowering the conversion point costs of the weak classes. It just seems like power creep. Maybe the costs on other races need to be raised in some cases.

DWARVES
While I agree that they're not as clearly in need of help as Goblins, I think Dwarves could use a boost. They're definitely my second-least used race. They don't have much synergy with most things, and the things that they do have synergy with generally seem to have more synergy with other races. Max health is just not a very important stat in a game where most of your healing comes without consideration of max health, and where there's CYDSTEPP.

For this reason, I would suggest tweaking their ability, if possible, rather than just lowering the conversion point cost. I just can't think of how to tweak it in a way that is both balanced and sticks with the simplicity of race abilities. Maybe +1 Max Health per level and +2% healing from all sources. I would probably up their conversion point cost a little at that point.

HUMANS
I agree that humans are pretty fine as they are. Someone pointed out that the items favor Orcs, which I think is true, but what is even more true is that a number of classes favor Orcs (with high +% damage bonuses) while no classes favor humans in that way. However, as things currently are, if I want base damage I usually take a Halfling and a Tri-sword, since it takes so many conversion points for the Orc to beat the Triling, AND the Triling gets all that extra healing.

If I want damage, the human is usually a distant third simply because he has no clear class or item synergies. In terms of base power though, I think they're pretty good. Other than the Goblin, the Triling and the Orc were the last classes I got, and Humans were a very high pick before that.

My suggestion would be to make a least one class and at least one good item give base damage. Maybe make Monks have a starting -50% damage bonus and gain +1 base damage per level. Or the new Fighters could gain +1 base damage per level.

TRILING!!
I am beginning to think that Halflings with a Tri-Sword are overpowered. Maybe not extremely so, but it works incredibly with many classes and well with almost every class. Who doesn't want a ton of extra damage and healing. I typically use early potions to easily kill much higher level enemies which then leaves me with a large damage bonus to keep up the XP climb. I then either burn my remaining potions picking up extra tough kills before converting to Dracul or GG, or I keep them and use them with the boss.

In any case, it doesn't seem right that a race should get so much better with just one specific item. It seems that either Halflings + Tri-sword must be overpowered, or Halflings - Tri-sword must be underpowered.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Darvin on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:51 am

while no classes favor humans in that way

Wizard, and that's about it really.


I am beginning to think that Halflings with a Tri-Sword are overpowered.

Ugh... gotta find room in my locker for Trisword; I really haven't had the opportunity to try out these combos because my locker is full of stuff I'm using on a regular basis (sensation stone, vampiric sword, dragon shield, avatar's symbol, burning heart, and keg of mana currently)


It seems that either Halflings + Tri-sword must be overpowered, or Halflings - Tri-sword must be underpowered.

This was my worry with the new Whargarbl and Trisword. Much too specific a combo.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Alweth on Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:30 am

It seems that either Halflings + Tri-sword must be overpowered, or Halflings - Tri-sword must be underpowered.

This was my worry with the new Whargarbl and Trisword. Much too specific a combo.


Hmm, how about if the Tri-sword and Whargarbl gave +3 base damage and +5% bonus damage (respectively) every time you get a racial conversion level. I feel like that would be a nice buff for the races with the lower conversion rates which generally seem to be weaker.

Alternatively, the Whargarbl could work every 100 conversion points, but that would be harder to track.
Last edited by Alweth on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby subanark on Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:32 am

Hrm... I guess you are right, extra regen would be too powerful at low levels, and not too shabby at high levels.

Maybe:
gain protection from death (maybe stacks)
+5% dodge
10 Piety
+1 stacking damage reduction
Next 10 revealed tiles offer +1 health per level regen (only consumed if health is recovered)
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby q 3 on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:07 am

Goblins with +10 gold per 85 conversion points would be just about perfect, I think - useful in just about every situation, capable of a few unique strategies, but still generally inferior to the specialist races at their own specialties. Experience-converting Goblins only really had one high-end strategy (Tikki Tooki Assassins) which has already been made mostly obsolete by the Amulet of Yendor.

It would be interesting to try giving Dwarves a stacking conversion, like Orcs have, even if only for a week just so we can test it. +1 max HP, stacking, for ~70 conversion points would be significantly more powerful early on but less powerful at higher levels; that's a tradeoff Dwarves might be willing to make, since at the moment they have the worst early game of any of the stat boosting races (+1 bonus HP is great at level 10, but often pointless at level 1).

I still think Tri-Sword's original form was the closest to ideal, it just needed a more potent penalty - say, +20 base damage (or +3/level) but it disables health regeneration (the effect cannot be prevented with poison immunity, and it also disables BLUDTOPOWA). Whurrgarbl could be something like +35% bonus damage (+5% per level?) but it disables mana regeneration (not mana burn). Powerful items, but you'd have to think twice about bringing them as preparations, or buying them too soon.
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