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Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:13 pm
by Crawly McCrawlsa
Revamping the Vamp... what do?

Well, Theres some things about lifesteal you may not know. Here's my epic story and thought patter to get to my current conclusion (at the end). Here goes:

I march proudly into the dungeon as a Vampire with a sensation stone and conversion scroll, because I wanted to be the master of all life as we know it. I convert it, do some other stuff, convert some glyphs, then I actually looked at what I had...

Lifesteal: 18. So every time I hit an enemy, I should gain 18 health back. Right?
Damage Reduction: 2. I figured I'd bring the shield this time to stack with my natural ability to tank damage.
Current Damage with boosts: 12.
Level: 2.

I go to attack a level 4 Serpent, because from looking at my lifesteal... i'm a god right now.
The serpent has 27 attack. I hit it, and I take 13 damage. 27-18-2 = 7. So I should be taking 7 damage if I'm doing my math right... Not 13. I'm only stealing 12 life!

If I attack a level 2 Dragonspawn, because I should be its immortal master at my current stats...
The dragon has 10 attack. I hit it, and gain 4 health. 10-2-18 = -10. So according to my math, I should be gaining 10 health, not 4. I'm still only stealing 12 life!

If i attack a level 1 meat man, because he's just a chump...
The meat man has 2 attack. I hit it, and gain 12 health. 2-2-18 = -18. So according to my math again, I should be gaining my full 18 lifesteal, since my 2 damage reduction makes the meat man deal 0 damage. But I don't. Instead, I'm 6 health short still.

What am I missing here? Apparently I'm doing 12 lifesteal instead of 18. 12 just happens to be my actual attack and not my lifesteal.

I gain 1 level after killing stuff. My stats are: 18 total damage, 2 damage reduction, 18 lifesteal.
I move in on a level 3 animated armor. He has 28 attack. I hit him, I take 8 damage. 28-2-18 = 8. WOO it's correct. But I believe this is only because my actual attack is 18.

I gain another level. Stats: Attack 25 total. 2 damage reduction. 18 lifesteal.
I close in hungrily on a level 4 dragonspawn. He has 27 attack. What a wimp. I hit him and suffer a measly 7 damage. 27-2-18 = 7 WOO it's correct. I now believe this is because my attack is greater than my lifesteal.

Can you only lifesteal to a total of your maximum damage?

I convert some stuff, I'm up to 20 lifesteal now! wooo!
I attack a level 3 gooblob, because I can easily slurp up his measly life for breakfast. He has 18 damage. I hit, he hits. He deals 3 damage. WAIT A SEC! I thought I was fixed? 18-2-20 = -4. I should be Gaining life, not losing it... The prediction meter says i'll be gaining life too. But I didn't. I lifestealed for 13 only. I also only dealt 13 damage through his physical resistance.

My conclusions. You can only lifesteal up to the damage you deal. This means that the Vampire's huge lifesteal early on is absolutely useless for fighting higher level monsters, because he can't even get close to taking advantage of its full potential. Additionally, since the Vampire has no mana regeneration, he has almost NOTHING to deal with physical resistances. His attack and lifesteal BOTH get massively crippled, not to mention he certainly doesn't have the mage power to deal with it.

Also... Minor bug? or on purpose? I have patches. I gained the resistance boost. It shows me as having 2 little +0% resistance icons. Are the little icons supposed to be there?

Start talking. Save my crippled vampire.

Re: Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:19 pm
by q 3
Crawly McCrawlsa wrote:You can only lifesteal up to the damage you deal.

Correct. That was an intentional change after some folks figured out how to make nearly invulnerable Monks with maxed out lifesteal and minimal offense. And yes, it does seriously weaken Vampires, who need and probably will receive a revamp (ha) in the next update or two. My vote continues to be that they receive normal MP regeneration, at which point we can see if any further changes are necessary; lowering their conversion cost or adding 1 or 2% bonus damage with each conversion would be my alternate/additional suggestions.

Re: Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:33 pm
by Darvin
Vampire is fine if you find enough items to boost your attack early and Dracul's alter to start building up blood hunger and your boss doesn't have serious physical resist or massive damage. So if you combo off correctly he works, the problem is he's so incredibly specific that you have absolutely zero leeway to deal with anything other than your optimum situation.

Re: Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:50 pm
by Gorgon
Giving them mana regeneration is a good idea that wouldn't make them overpowered. They could make use of HALPMEH to cover their lack of HP and maybe GETINDARE for first strike. But they would still be quite dependent on Dracul.

Re: Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:15 pm
by JonahHollow
Isn't the game's goal is to be able to have many different combinations and playstyles for every character,? Which is hard for one like the Vampire.

Re: Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:26 pm
by The Avatar
Gorgon, the problem with Mana regen is it is more glyph scumming. BLUDTUPOWA and HALPMEH are an incredible combo, especially when you are regening 60 per 3 tiles at level 10 instead of 3. Also, you are currently always scumming for Dracul. I suggest adding no worship to Damned, adding +5-10 max mana (But no mp regen), and first strike under eternal thirst. The extra mp is a big problem solver for the goo blobs, and first strike is almost essential for life stealers.

Re: Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:51 pm
by Gorgon
Vampires are so specific right now that anything would make them better. Adding "No Worships" to damned would remove their dependence on Dracul, but they would have too little life steal. I suggest lowering their CP to 30 if this happens.

Re: Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:28 pm
by The Avatar
Perhaps, but first strike is so useful for life stealers, that the lake of life steal might be irrelevant. You'd have to test it

Re: Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:09 am
by Crawly McCrawlsa
First strike imo is a must have. Having regenerating mana is too powerful for him and would promote glyph scrounging like mad. BLOODTOPOWA + HALPMEH for example would be absolutely necessary. It cuts down on tile exploration by a ridiculous amount. But, to beat both the dungeon scumming and mana issue, how about this:

Add First Strike, Add +1 to max mana on conversion. Max mana will promote glyph usage, while first strike adds that extra hit he always needs. If he uses halpmeh to adjust his regeneration, he can't follow dracul. If he uses dracul for his bonuses, he can't use halpmeh. Not overpowering, but not underpowered either. And he only has to scum for one of them. This gives him 2 possible things to find instead of just one.

Re: Vamp Revamp

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:49 am
by The Avatar
This could work, but instead of max hp upon conversion, I think +2% damage would be better overall. It weakens his early game, but strengthens his ever so lame late game. Your changes look fine, the max hp suggestion has nothing to do with your suggestion.