Vampires!

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Vampires!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:55 pm

Well, this monster class, despite the changes, is still having major problems competing with high damage bosses. In addition, they lack staying power to medium damage high hp bosses (Evolvia, for example) which shuts them out of most Hard and Vicious dungeons. Another things is tight dungeons with minor regen space. Face it, they just can't compete at high levels.


I think instead of preventing resists, setting in a cap of 15, 20, or 25% would really help on later dungeons. Also, it would give them a reason not to take Blood Hunger. Also, to help with the regen problem perhaps your level/2 rounded down? It weakens their early game but helps their late game.

Personally this class is Low Tier along with the priest and his other low buddies.
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Re: Vampires!

Postby Gorgon on Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:51 pm

If his defenses capped at 20%, it would cause more scumming... Maybe lowering their CP to 30 would solve the problem.
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Re: Vampires!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:13 pm

More scumming? For what? If it encourages scumming then make him start at 15% due to his naturally resistant undead skin, but he's unable to raise them. So you can't take two or three blood hunger and then blood shield to re-max your resists. In addition to the hp regen improvement.
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Re: Vampires!

Postby q 3 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:59 pm

I don't see how 15-20% resistances would be at all helpful for a Vampire. On a boss that hits for 100, that's -15 damage; Blood Hunger, however, is easily worth 20+ lifesteal even at the low end, so the resistances aren't worth keeping. On a boss that hits for 150, that's -22 damage, which is still not going to be worth it. The % reduction only starts to outweigh lifesteal with a boss like Bleaty, but 20% resistances are never going to be enough to take a hit from him.

I'm wondering if lifesteal might work better as a per-level ability. Replace Blood Hunger's +5 lifesteal with +1/level, i.e. 1 lifesteal at level 1 and 10 lifesteal at level 10. Piety cost might need to be tweaked a bit - something like 11+11. Then change the Vampire to a 200 point conversion for 1 level of lifesteal and something like +2 bonus HP. (Currently 200 points gets you +5 lifesteal, which would be the equivalent of 1 level of lifesteal in the new system.) Vampires (and lifesteal generally) wouldn't be nearly as overpowered at level 1, but would have a lot more staying power at level 6+. It wouldn't be near enough to tank Bleaty, but would give Vampires a fighting chance against Aequitas, Namtar, etc.
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Re: Vampires!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:28 pm

That, is a good idea. But blood hunger would have to be more than 11+11. By stone and glyphs alone you can get 4 levels, which is pretty solid. With that little cost you could get 80 lifesteal at level 10.
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Re: Vampires!

Postby Darvin on Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:48 pm

I've found Vampires make superb spellcasters with BLUDTUPOWA... but that's where scumming comes in. You see, when BLUDTUPOWA is active, any life-steal is converted to mana, so a Vampire with a decent life-steal amount can actually gain up to 10 mana per attack. If you left enough low-level monsters lying around, that's a huge amount of spell power. I just beat Bleaty on Grimm's Grotto with a PISORF/BLUDTUPOWA Vampire... and then died when cleaning up the last monsters because the battle prediction was wrong and predicted survival when what was going to happen was death.

Sadly, this is a class that's dependent on scumming for the right glyphs and being able to find the right combos to build on it and getting a flawless opening game to leave lots of monsters around as late-game fodder. Too much prep-work just to make him work.. So he still needs work. I think one of our problems is that we really don't have any ways to stack up damage reduction. We have 2 points from the shield prep, 5 points from Taurog, and you can hit upwards of 10 from Earthmother (good luck as a Vampire, though...) but that still leaves you without enough DR to even make a dent against incoming damage from bosses that deal upwards of 100... or 300 in the case of Grimm's Grotto Bleaty.
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Re: Vampires!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:45 pm

Dang, I had no idea...

They need a complete rework then. The crappy regen and whatnot leaves them with only one option.

Once again, remake them and the transmuter...
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Re: Vampires!

Postby gjaustin on Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:59 pm

While not technically the topic of the thread, I have to *strongly* object to the Vampire being compared in power level to the Priest.

I saw the comment about Priest being low tier and said to myself - "That can't be right. I'm sure I could beat Naga City with a Priest."

Took me two tries :) Halfling Priest w/ Dragon Shield. I found GG, Trisword, and Agnostic's Collar - which is admittedly lucky - but Patches teleported me into a corner and I had to burn 3 potions (while worshipping GG) to get out - which balances it some. I ended with a reasonable amount of resources left (3 health potions if you count conversion and 75 piety for Last Chance)

At a *minimum* the Priest is stronger than the Fighter, Crusader, Sorcerer, Wizard, and Vampire.
I'd also say he's most likely stronger than the Gorgon, Berserker, and Half-Dragon. He's about on par with the Bloodmage or Tinkerer.
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Re: Vampires!

Postby Darvin on Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:21 pm

Halfling Priest w/ Dragon Shield. I found GG, Trisword, and Agnostic's Collar

Yow, that's powerful.

Admittedly, though, the Priest class is well-suited to Naga City.

At a *minimum* the Priest is stronger than the Fighter, Crusader, Sorcerer, Wizard, and Vampire.

Fighter and Vampire sure, but the other ones depend on which scenario you're playing and how much scumming you're willing to do. Sorcerer and Crusader are great because they require little scumming, while the Wizard's cheaper glyphs are a big advantage.
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Re: Vampires!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:47 pm

Back on topic,what would the new Vampire be like? Obviously he uses lifesteal, but can he raise resists? Does he have actual regen? A lower resist cap? What's his conversion rate?
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