What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

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What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby Normalguy on Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:56 am

Simple question, if you had to rank the classes into tiers how would you do so? And how would you determine each tier?
Example tier:
A: Warlord, Bloodmage, Paladin, Assassin
B: Berserker, Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer
C: Priest, Fighter, Thief, Wizard
Just an example, I don't personally know if it's correct at all.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby The Avatar on Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:20 am

Switch berserker, rogue, and monk with Bloodmage, Paladin and Assassin.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby TigerKnee on Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:02 am

This link is kind of old but the tier list hasn't really changed much actually. Also doesn't include the monster races and Crusader/Transmuter/Tinker/Monster races.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=912

Right now, I would reluctantly shift Monk up to High/Low Tier (using 4 tiers, not 2) but I'm still very iffy. Yes, you can argue people have completed the Gauntlet using him, but people have completed it using the Fighter. It's safe to say that the dungeon is way overrated.

Also, I don't know if Berserker still has his place in the top tier. I predicted his dominance was due to pure circumstance and I think it's true. You don't really hear about him anymore.

Edit: I forgot Assassin. This tier list was written at the time where Assassins were made super gimpy because poison glyph was nerfed. He should probably be high right now.

As far as the race of the classes go...

Transmuters used to be in a tier of their own right at the top on levels with enough walls (which is most of them), but I honestly don't know how they are now after the nerf.

Crusaders seem to me for all intents and purposes to be... actually very similar to an inferior version of the Thief. Nice on levels with lots of Mana Burns or Weakens though. His Momentum ability has some strange coding where using Fireballs will break the chain and I always unintentionally break it by accident since my reflex is to fireball first then physical. I'll put him somewhere between High/Low like the Monk.

Tinker probably fits in the same tier. Depending on when you unlock him, you can knock his tier down if it's early in the game and you're still using terrible items like Fine Sword... or he's good if you manage to generate the perfect collection of items. SCUM SCUM SCUM.

Monster races:
Gorgons and Half-Dragons are low for me. They're very one-dimensional really.

Vampires are right besides the Fighter at the Bottom.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby The Avatar on Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:55 am

Monk can beat all 5 vicious. That's top tier.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby gjaustin on Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:11 am

In rough order

---High---
Rogue (Orc/Gnome/Halfling with CYDSTEPP)
Monk
Rogue (Dwarf)
Paladin
Thief
Warlord

---Mid---
Bloodmage
Priest
Berserker
Half-Dragon
Gorgon
Wizard (with HALPMEH and BLUDPOWA)
Sorcerer
Tinkerer

---Low----
Wizard (without HALPMEH)
Assassin
Crusader
Fighter
Transmuter (post regen nerf)
Vampire



Comments on some of my "controversial" choices.

Priests own. They get more effect from healing potions than a Thief and there's undead in just about every dungeon. They only fall behind because their +2 health per level is worse than the Thief's +33% items.

Berserkers were hit HARD by the Trisword nerf. So many of the Vicious dungeons (where tier lists actually matter) require either CYDSTEPP or high physical resist. They're not so great at either.

Wizards are a one trick pony. If they find HALPMEH and BLUDPOWA and either some resists or poison, they can do some serious damage. No HALPMEH and they might as well go home.

Paladins are awesome. To hit their full power level they really need to find Pactmaker, Glowing Guardian, or Dracul though.

I love Sorcerers, but other than against Indomitable their abilities have trouble fighting the gauntlet present in just about every other Vicious dungeon.

I'm rating Tinkerers at the lower end because they're so wildly random. If you get the wrong items in shops, you're useless.

Both Half-dragons and Gorgons can be quite strong. The former because of his massive damage potential (I nearly one-shot a Hard difficulty boss - I did 75% of his health). The latter because her natural resist and Poison strike allow her to level quickly and regen fight bosses. If you're having trouble with the Gorgon, make sure to stack her attack damage - take the -2 health/+2 attack and +10% blacksmith preps. The reason they don't rate higher is that the Half-dragon runs into serious problems against some bosses (i.e. Bleaty and Tower of Goo) that make him inconsistent. The Gorgon isn't higher because she's locked out of GG and Earthmother due to her poison strike and she struggles against magic damage.

Finally, the Transmuter. I hated playing him in the Alpha and I still hate playing him in the Beta. And now that destroying walls to regenerate mana heals monsters, he's useless. And I'm happy!


Edit - I don't usually play Bloodmage (not for any specific reason), so I'm kind of guessing where he goes.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby TigerKnee on Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:27 am

gjaustin wrote:Priests own. They get more effect from healing potions than a Thief


Realistically, it's not easy to actually get the full additional 67% out of your health potions (compared to the Thief where it's dead easy as long as you picked up Halpmeh or Fireball at least)... unless you're extremely good at wrangling regeneration I suppose.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby gjaustin on Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:15 am

TigerKnee wrote:
gjaustin wrote:Priests own. They get more effect from healing potions than a Thief


Realistically, it's not easy to actually get the full additional 67% out of your health potions (compared to the Thief where it's dead easy as long as you picked up Halpmeh or Fireball at least)... unless you're extremely good at wrangling regeneration I suppose.


Stacking resists helps too, since it makes it more likely you can survive two or more hits. There's awkward situations for using potions for both classes. Priests are most awkward when you barely die in two hits, while Thieves are awkward when you're losing more than 80% of your life from one attack. Thieves also have problems with using CYDSTEPP that Priests don't have as well as with mana burn.

Of course, Thieves are significantly better than Priests. The math on their potion abilities works out roughly the same and +30% damage on first hit and +100% against undead can be compared. But the the +33% items the Thief gets is what really makes them pull ahead.

I think the reason people think Priests are weak is that they can struggle early if they don't find undead monsters. They're really the opposite of Sorcerers in that way. They struggle a little killing higher level enemies in the early game, but as long as they clear that hurdle the bosses don't stand a chance against them.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby Gorgon on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:48 pm

A:

Berserker
Rogue
Warlord
Paladin

B:

Thief
Monk
Bloodmage

C:

Wizard
Sorcerer
Crusader
Gorgon
Tinker
Half-Dragon (Dungeon with many walls)
Assassin

D:

Half-Dragon (Dungeon with few walls)
Priest

E:

Transmuter
Fighter
Vampire

Notes:

I like priests. They're good enough for dungeons with many undead.

Everything except tiers A and E are balanced enough at the moment.

Tiers A and E are either too useful or not useful enough.

Tier B is a little unbalanced, but not as unbalanced as tier A.

Tier D is a little weak, but not too weak to be completely ignored. It doesn't need to be rebalanced.

Tier C is balanced enough and should be used as a baseline for balancing other classes, in my opinion.
Last edited by Gorgon on Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby Lujo on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:48 pm

My tier list:

Obviously unfair:

Monk
Rogue (w Cydstep)
Thief
Bloodmage
Paladin

Strong:

Assasin
Sorcerer
Priest

Sensible:

Fighter
Wizard
Crusader

Situational:

Berserker
Tinker

Pointless by design:

Warlord
Transmuter


Explanations:

The obviously broken: (the ones you can do math on and fall off the chair in realization)

Monk - 50% starting resists, goes over the regular cap with one item, 2X as much HP regen resources in any dungeon, he's the main reason for monster design shifiting into perma debuff teritory and dungeons have to be designed with him in mind. Cleared the alpha with him, could clear beta with him, can clear Slime Pits even after his nerfs and is a walking cheat code.

Rogue (w Cydstep) - The second bigges offender, a guy that by design has tools to kill dangerous stuff without wasting resources, gets hilariously broken when you combine him w cydstep, although Gaan'Telet has shown that 10% dodge combined with enough resists saves tons of resources, and this guy can easily get to 30% dodge. I don't play him much as scumming for cydstep to complete a ridiculous dungeon is too much bother when doing it with a Monk is so easy.

Thief - Even if Monk and Rogues were fixed, he's my go-to class for doing stuff that is unreasonably difficult. Outperforms over-the-curve DEITIES in the regen and debuff removal department, and subtly but efficently unbalances so much stuff in the game.

Bloodmage - has a weak early game, but has such a strong late game that it doesn't matter (especialy when you can sort of skip a lot of the early game with one str potion). If something needs clearing multiple times, I ussualy skip the rogue, and equip this guy with a fire heart. Machine gun fireballing with increasing damage breaks the concept of mana being a much scarcer resource than HP, and outclasses any caster not relying on halpmeh.

Paladin - looks inconspicious on paper, but people swear by him. HALPMEH is a strong glyph, and monotheism literaly breaks deities (sayes right in the ability description). As Dracul helps him raise his resists, and dracul is balanced by not allowing potions and halpmeh, all this adds up to Paladin being a walking cheatcode.


Strong: (above the curve guys that don't need fixing in my opinion)

Assasin - the only guy that can easily walk all over everything even if the power curve is stupidly high. He cheats, yes, but with the state of the game as is (perma debuffers everywhere, current-state animated armors, unreasonably high stats on monsters), he allows me to bypass all the stuff that's only really there to challenge Monk, but is sort of balanced as his endgame is vanilla. Yes, he could probably walk over everything even if everything else is fixed, but noone will ever try to balance monsters against him, and as such I consider him a fixture.

Sorcerer - Another guy with obvious advantages, but no monstrous endgame retardedness potential. Very good progression from "basic sepllcaster" to "advanced sepllcaster", although having fireball as a prep has made him stronger than he used to be.

Priest - Only really strong with resists, but as long as they are in the game, he is a resource abuser. Since he doesn't have starting resists, he's not as easy to break as the Monk or Paladin, but if he did, he'd be right up there with them.


Sensible:

Fighter - Has his pro's and cons, with a str potion and his starting death protection he can easily skip to lvl X with just on kill, and can then lvl catapult easily with the help of Tiki Tooki (and +2 XP per kill). A fun class that makes you use your head, outclassed by obvious retardedness most of the time, and dungeons designed to (unsucesfully) try to counter the retardedness.

Wizard - Again, like the fighter, another class that relies more on the player, but still has pro's and cons. Reliant on retardedness he can use, and forced to compete against challenges for retardedness he can't use (50% starting resists, machine gun fireballs, double worth potions, effortless level catapults).

Crusader - Stronger than the other classes, but looks nicely balanced so far, and doesn't seem to break any fundamental rules of the game.


Situational:

Berserker - the one-resource guy if you play him straight. Better than the Monk in certain cases, outclassed by him in all other ones.

Tinker - Depends on the run, but quite strong just because of the 2 comression scrolls. If there wasnt so much specific junk in the shops, would be strong, rather than balanced.


Pointless by design:

Transmuter - playes a whole different game than anyone else.

Warlord - in my exirience sub-par to any other melee class, as there aren't many ways to boost fixed damage in the game, and even less for guys dependent on mana. Taurog berserker gets as many repeatable death protections as He does, but does way more damage, and almost anyone else gets better mileage out of their cydsteps, halpmehs, bloodswells, and so forth. I REALLY don't like this class.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby The Avatar on Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:25 pm

Going back to Gorgon's tier list here's what to do about nerfs:
Berserker: 33% magic res, +1 to spell cost/-5 max mana
Rogue: Decrease CYDSTEPP synergy (-3 health per level +30-40% damage)
Warlord: Remake Class
Paladin: Increase HALPMEH cost to 4 mana
Thief: Instead of getting 40% both get 33% both from potions
Monks: Remake class to something like 25% resist, no bonus from weapons, double regen
Bloodmage: Remove burning heart
Priest: No real problem, bump to C tier
Half-Dragon: As long as there are any walls he's gonna be pretty good. 300% extra damage (400% total) is super good. But really hard to get.
Transmuter: Remake so he's not so focused on how many walls in a dungeon. He uses IMAWALL to make his own walls, and then ENDISWALL to use them as resources
Vampire: Like the idea, but no resistance and crappy regen forces them to be BLODTUPOWA spellcasters. Remake
Fighter: After CYDSTEPP goes Pit Dog will be seen as more useful. Instead of +1 exp per kill perhaps -x exp to level up, where x is your level. Also, give him a +10% starting bonus so he's actually good at fighting

And that's all folks! Thanks for reading!
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