What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby TigerKnee on Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:04 pm

I seriously don't think the devs will remake Warlord. They really don't like doing that unless absolutely necessary.

But I think it does shine a spotlight on the class balance in Beta because of several other changes.

I think the basic problem now is that the class balance is done by Consistency vs theorotical maximum power.

In Alpha, this sort of works. For example, I think the Fighter can actually be considered mid tier there because there really isn't many situations that require the sheer blow-out power that a lot of the Vicious Beta dungeons requires. He can be "piloted" consistently to a victory most of the time.

Starting as a Paladin or Warlord means you are guranteed to start with a useful glyph. Yes, an Alpha Sorcerer with Cydstepp or Thief will end up more powerful but if you get walled early as those two classes before any useful glyphs spawn you are going to jump through some acrobatic hoops to get things done.

In Beta, consistency and getting walled is a lot less of an issue and the design of most Vicious dungeons just ask you to become a demigod to have a chance. Everyone can at bare minimum start with Fireball, and reveal the location of all altars if you're reliant on a deity strategy. There's items like Strength potion to break open any early game walls you may face and give yourself a super quick level boost for classes with weak early games.

Which means consistent classes take a hit and the previously inconsistent classes get buffed.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby gjaustin on Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:48 pm

Yeah, Paladin and Warlord really are the "Ehh, whatever" classes. They start with everything you need to win and if the Paladin finds GG or Pactmaker (and to a lesser extent Dracul) he can rival the Monk or Rogue in sheer power.

I agree completely about the Sorcerer. I love him - he might be my favorite class. But his healing really needs to scale with level. It should probably be mana cost * level or, if that's too strong, mana cost * level / 2.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby The Avatar on Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:57 pm

Making his endgame better and start game worse. The problem with the Warlord is the sheer existence of his glyph. Anyways, it might be a good way to incorporate a damage reduction glyph...
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby Darvin on Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:52 pm

Warlord: Remake Class

I like the Warlord. Find BLUDTUPOWA and pack the Avatar's Symbol, and he can easily take on monsters 4 levels higher than himself. Basically gives him a damage bonus comparable to a rogue without the exhaustion effect of CYDSTEPP, plus damage bonus for chugging a mana potion. With gnome or orc as your race, he's one of the best classes out there and a shoe-in for top-tier. Very comparable to the Paladin.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby The Avatar on Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:11 pm

Yeah, remake cause he's too good, and what makes him good is his glyph. You could change his glyph.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:01 am

Yes, paradoxicaly, he's not even as dangerous with his glyph as some other guys, that's why I dont like him. If for whatever reason I want to cydstep my way to victory, I'd rather scum for it with someone else. Even with exaustion.

In other words, he needs an end game relic and another gylph to be comparable to rogue. And meet a condition, and spend a mana potion. And compared to a Taurog worshiper he has to pay mana for endgame cydsteps (which are ultimately the only ones that really matter).

All this makes him painfully balanced compared to anyone else who plans to take the multi-death protection route. I can never see any benefit in picking him for the glyph over scumming for it with someone else.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby The Avatar on Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:28 pm

Yeah, I only scum if I really need to. I guess if you balance everything else, and nerf monster damage than CYDSTEPP won't be as effective.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:03 pm

Lujo wrote:Yes, paradoxicaly, he's not even as dangerous with his glyph as some other guys, that's why I dont like him. If for whatever reason I want to cydstep my way to victory, I'd rather scum for it with someone else. Even with exaustion.

In other words, he needs an end game relic and another gylph to be comparable to rogue. And meet a condition, and spend a mana potion. And compared to a Taurog worshiper he has to pay mana for endgame cydsteps (which are ultimately the only ones that really matter).

All this makes him painfully balanced compared to anyone else who plans to take the multi-death protection route. I can never see any benefit in picking him for the glyph over scumming for it with someone else.


They really shouldn't balance for scumming though. If you want to run the dungeon over and over again to get a glyph, that's fine, but I certainly don't.

But even then, Warlord is great with Avatar Sigil. The real problem is really the Rogue.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby q 3 on Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:17 pm

Warlords aren't exactly unique in being only second best at using their personal glyphs. Wizards and Sorcerers get a lot more mileage out of BLUDTOPOWA than Bloodmages do, while Monks benefit much more from HALPMEH and APHEELSIK than either Paladins or Assassins do. Scumming for one or more of those glyphs (or PISORF) is instrumental in I'd estimate at least 75% of power gaming strategies. Rather than overhaul all of the classes I think it would be much easier to simply figure out a way to minimize glyph scumming - such as, for instance, a preparation for selecting one specific glyph, or my suggestion of having third tier class glyphs available to other classes only via a special shop that always appears in the dungeon and has all four glyphs for sale but will only allow one purchase.
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Re: What would your personal tier list for the classes be?

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:21 pm

Now for my suggestions for balancing the classes. Note that all of these are MINOR and do not involve adding anything else to the game. Any suggestions to "create new glyphs" or "remake classes" are obvious non-starters, so I've avoided all of them.

Fighter - Make his death protection refresh on level up

Berserker - Lower his magic resist and reduce his penalty to cast spells

Warlord - No change. He's strong, but balanced.

Thief - Make his +33% items not spawn an extra glyph or potions

Rogue - Either nerf CYDSTEPP (in a way that doesn't hurt Warlord) or change his damage bonus so that he only gets it at full health.

Assassin - Give him a discount on APHEELSIK.

Priest - Change his 2 health per level to a flat health bonus. Around 15 would probably be good.

Monk - Lower his max resist cap to 70%.

Paladin - No changes

Wizard - Make him spawn an extra glyph, instead of an extra fireball. Maybe soften his damage penalty a bit.

Sorcerer - Make his healing scale with level. I recommend mana * level / 2

Bloodmage - Slightly reduce the GG and Earthmother piety penalty for drinking blood

Tinkerer - Reduce the cost on a few of the weaker items (Venom Sword, Witchalok Pendat, and Martyr Wraps specifically)

Transmuter - Leave him the same. Maybe nerf him more so I never have to play him :)

Crusader - Make fireballs not reset his damage bonus. Alternatively, have the bonus apply to the Fireball.

Vampire - I'm not really sure. Maybe make his conversion bonus +1 lifesteal and +5% damage?

Half-Dragon - Make poison apply AFTER knockback. This makes Venom Sword actually useful for a class and simplifies things.

Gorgon - The poison after knockback change helps her as well. She could probably use a little bit of Magic Resist though. Alternatively, make ENDISWALL give +10% to both resists.



Glyph suggestions:
WONAFYT - Add 15% damage reduction (physical and magical) when you cast it
CYDSTEPP - Make exhaustion completely stop mana regen (until level up)
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