Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

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Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Normalguy on Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:05 am

I've seen many posters comment on how Vicious dungeons enter an entire new game mode where instead of playing DD you're setting up and scumming the perfect puzzle. The common reason stated for this is so that vicious mode is set out to see how far IMBA classes can go. Do you believe we'll eventually receive end-game items/micro that will make vicious mode dungeons more manageable for the average player or will they be toned down if the developers feel comfortable with balance?
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Crawly McCrawlsa on Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:48 am

Normalguy... are you normalguy from BLC?
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby gjaustin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:58 am

Normalguy wrote:I've seen many posters comment on how Vicious dungeons enter an entire new game mode where instead of playing DD you're setting up and scumming the perfect puzzle. The common reason stated for this is so that vicious mode is set out to see how far IMBA classes can go. Do you believe we'll eventually receive end-game items/micro that will make vicious mode dungeons more manageable for the average player or will they be toned down if the developers feel comfortable with balance?


We've already gotten those end-game items that make the Vicious dungeons reasonably doable. Things like WHUPAZ, Elite Items, and the Alchemist weren't around when those dungeons were first added.

And most of the dungeons aren't like that. Yes, the Tower is and Naga City sort of is. But the rest of them are fairly reasonable and can even be beaten Purist.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Normalguy on Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:43 am

Crawly McCrawlsa wrote:Normalguy... are you normalguy from BLC?

I am actually!
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Crawly McCrawlsa on Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:34 am

Haha I would never have suspected you as a DD player too. I played with you a looong time back, close to beta. (not by this name obviously) You just hosted a NA tourney right? I read it on the GK forums. I was plannin on playin, but then my gf required my attention... grrr. In any case, welcome to the DD forums haha.

As to the actual topic, I believe the main strategies/micro of the game is pretty set in stone. One of the biggest difficulties in Vicious dungeons is not the actual scumming, that just takes a little time, it's coming up with that key solution that takes a "good" character to that level of IMBA where he can take on 9 bosses in a row and succeed. Or, that key combination that really accents a character in just the right way to take advantage of what is provided in the dungeon, then repeat until you achieve victory.

Now, the things that make scumming so prevalent in vicious dungeons is the fact that 2 glyphs are much stronger than the others (halpmeh and cydstepp), and that certain items are Extremely effective for certain classes or the dungeon in general (triling, agnostics collar, etc), and that 2 of the gods have way stronger long term benefits than the others (dracul and GG).

The question is... will elements of the game be buffed to get on this "vicious" quality level? or will they bring these elements into line with the other items/gods/etc and then bring down the difficulty of these dungeons to be tolerable.
As for that, only the devs know. Balance is always the most difficult thing to create in any game. (lmao at the old grim/rav)
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:05 am

and that 2 of the gods have way stronger long term benefits than the others (dracul and GG).

Personally, I've found Dracul has fallen out of top-tier ever since Blood Power got removed. Still a solid deity, but not for every class. I actually think Jehora Jeheyu is better than him now, stealing second place after Glowing Guardian.

Pactmaker, Tikki Tooki and Taurog aren't half-bad. It's only Earthmother, Binlor and Mystera that really fall below par, but at very least they're great piety farms and have a few gimmicks at their disposal (Mystera is awesome on levels with multiple weaker bosses; mana leak FTW)
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Gorgon on Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:57 pm

The real problem with Binlor is that he destroys too many walls, so he'll become obsolete after a certain number of boons.

I like the idea of having a double-edged god like Mystera, but she is too punishing. You have to use 220 piety on "Magic" to get 10 MP, and all monsters will get 30% defenses. Lowering enemy magic resistance by 30% costs 120 piety, while Binlor can lower both magic and physical resistance by 30% with only 60 piety.

The Earthmother is not so bad, but her boon effects are a little weak. Maybe changing "Vine Form" to 5+2 piety and "Green Blood" to "50 piety: Adds 3 levels of corrosion, but allows you to corrode monsters" would fix her.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby gjaustin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:45 pm

Darvin wrote:
and that 2 of the gods have way stronger long term benefits than the others (dracul and GG).

Personally, I've found Dracul has fallen out of top-tier ever since Blood Power got removed. Still a solid deity, but not for every class. I actually think Jehora Jeheyu is better than him now, stealing second place after Glowing Guardian.

Pactmaker, Tikki Tooki and Taurog aren't half-bad. It's only Earthmother, Binlor and Mystera that really fall below par, but at very least they're great piety farms and have a few gimmicks at their disposal (Mystera is awesome on levels with multiple weaker bosses; mana leak FTW)


I'll mostly agree with this, though I'd definitely believe that Pactmaker is the third best diety. Worst case he's 50 free piety. Best case he gives you 40% resist all.

I also happen to really like Earthmother since she gives you so much bonus experience. She's great to start as (for the free glyph), grab a few levels of Vine Form, then convert out at 100 piety.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby TigerKnee on Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:08 pm

Earthmother needs one super capstone boon and she would be okay. Her biggest advantage is getting her early means a lot of extra exp on most levels.

Binlor's Stone Skin buff boon still needs to be changed. His boon that instantly provides 50% stone skin is still worthless because it's too expensive. I rather prefer the old First Strike boon (which isn't that good either)

At least he has one good boon now though (minus resistances boon), in the past he had NO good boons... well, I thought First Strike was good actually.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby gjaustin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:47 pm

TigerKnee wrote:Earthmother needs one super capstone boon and she would be okay. Her biggest advantage is getting her early means a lot of extra exp on most levels.

Binlor's Stone Skin buff boon still needs to be changed. His boon that instantly provides 50% stone skin is still worthless because it's too expensive. I rather prefer the old First Strike boon (which isn't that good either)

At least he has one good boon now though (minus resistances boon), in the past he had NO good boons... well, I thought First Strike was good actually.


Stone Fist is pretty good too. It's kind of dumb that it destroys walls though.
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