Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Fran on Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:20 pm

gjaustin wrote:
We've already gotten those end-game items that make the Vicious dungeons reasonably doable. Things like WHUPAZ, Elite Items, and the Alchemist weren't around when those dungeons were first added.



Then again i find it disturbing that i was able to complete dragon isles relatively fast and almost won namtars lair while I'm still not able to do the witchs quest pt 6.

I'd like to be able to do at least all quests on dungeons of one difficulty before moving onto the next difficulty.
Also, I think this quest is seriosly broken because it is the complete opposite of the central concept of the game:
Having meaningful decisions.
I don't think it's meaningful if I'm locked on class, diety and strategy setup for this to be winnable. Not even considering the luck you need in order to get all you need at the beginning. I just spend all my money (~5000) on preparations for this and don't really feel like playing the game anymore because it's just depressing and feels unfair. This is the part where it changed from strategy and skill to complete luck, even if you have figured out how to win the dungeon...
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby gjaustin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:54 pm

You're not going to get any disagreement from me.

Witch Part 6 is dumb.

The last part of the Monk quest line is also dumb. Fortunately that quest has been bugged for months, because beating Slime Pits as a Purist Monk is also dumb.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Gorgon on Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:57 pm

You don't need to beat slime pits as a purist monk. Unlike part 1 and 2, you can take preparations.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Fran on Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:16 pm

Yep, it is explicitly written in the quest description that you're allowed to use preperations, if i remember correctly.

I also think that the monk quest is far easier doable than the witch quest (simply because i could beat it in the thirst three tries), although I didn't enjoy it either.
But at least you can get the strategy where you use binlors resistance debuff a lot easiert to work than the absurd amount of luck needed für GG and HELPMAH at the start of the map.
I really hope there is a patch coming out this week that changes some things.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby gjaustin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:21 pm

Gorgon wrote:You don't need to beat slime pits as a purist monk. Unlike part 1 and 2, you can take preparations.


That would explain why I could never beat it.

That seems like a rather arbitrary thing to change mid-quest line.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:22 pm

That seems like a rather arbitrary thing to change mid-quest line.

Considering you jump from levels that are on the low end of "normal" difficulty to a level that's on the high end of "hard" difficulty, I think they had to change the rules otherwise you'd have a difficulty curve in this quest that's more like a sheer cliff.

I like the idea of having a double-edged god like Mystera, but she is too punishing. You have to use 220 piety on "Magic" to get 10 MP, and all monsters will get 30% defenses. Lowering enemy magic resistance by 30% costs 120 piety, while Binlor can lower both magic and physical resistance by 30% with only 60 piety.

Indeed; her ability to raise mana pales in comparison to Dracul's old blood power, and her ability to lower resists pales in comparison to Binlor's new stone heart.

She needs total rebalancing. Given the current benefit and piety costs on her boons, they really don't merit having any double-edge at all. If they're going to maintain their double-edge, they need massive improvement.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby gjaustin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:42 pm

I agree on Mystera.

She's a lot like the first iteration of Pactmaker. Her boons are so bad, that it feels like you should be given piety for taking them.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:02 pm

Mystera was only ever useful (outside of mana leak) when her magic boon only affected one type of resistance, allowing specialists to use it without fear. The boon has never been well-balanced for characters that actually have to deal with its downsides, and its cost ramps up much too quickly given that steep downside.

I think weakening either needs to be revamped or totally replaced now that Binlor has stone heart, which is basically the same thing except less expensive and it affects both resistances and it has no downside. It's very much the same kind of comparison we had to Dracul's old blood power, which had a slower cost increase so after a few hits it was actually giving more mana for less piety with no downsides, and those using PISORF, CYDSTEPP, or BURNDAYRAZ you could blood tithe all your health away so you had no piety issues.

I also think the old glyph magnet boon should become her on-worship effect. Some starting piety wouldn't be bad, either, since she's just a terrible alter if you find her late after exploration is complete. Now, if refreshment didn't increase in cost quite so fast, that might be another matter...
Last edited by Darvin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby The Avatar on Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:15 pm

Yes on the changes to Mystera. Yes. No double edge, glyph magnet as an on worship effect.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
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Re: Can we expect "Vicious" dungeons to be toned down?

Postby dislekcia on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:41 am

The vicious dungeons have been slowly coming down in difficulty and a lot of quests are going to get moved around/rebalanced over the next month or so. We're starting to need less stress testing and more "flow" testing - how enjoyable the game is as an experience from a progression point of view.

Would you guys like some way to artificially increase difficulty in dungeons as an optional thing though? We've been lobbing an idea like that around for a while now and can't decide if we want to go forward on it or not.
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