Naga City

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Re: Naga City

Postby Darvin on Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:51 pm

Don't know why you're using fire magnet as an orc. Presuming you can get enough life to survive Bleaty, I'd probably take additional attack bonus to improve my regen game, particularly for the Monk. Getting your glyphs early isn't a big deal, since the top-level is pretty laid back.

expect a completed fighter run of Naga City, it's definitely doable

I'd expect it's possible if you're willing to scum for the right setup. Getting your resists up that high will be the real challenge.
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Re: Naga City

Postby gjaustin on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:04 pm

I have done the math on the Monk and I'm not sure where you're getting 6 times. Since the resist cap is 75%, that's only 4 times. It's also ignoring the fact that Monk's don't start with 75% resists, so any comparison needs to have the other class with 25% resists. That drops it down to 3 times. Throw in the damage penalty (which makes the monk do about 65% the damage of another class) and you're down to only 2 times.

That's fairly good, but certainly not 6 times. It also ignores the fact that the other classes have other abilities that quickly make that up. For example, the Paladin ends up doing the same damage (thanks to his starting resists), plus has Monotheism and a free HALPMEH, which I prefer over the double regen.

As for the Thief, his power level is deceptive. His extra 33% items gets you one of each power up, two potions, a glyph, and (I think) some gold. That's a pretty massive boost and I think that one ability is more helpful than the entire Fighter class in Naga City. Btw, I find it amusing that I'm arguing he's stronger than you think, while you're arguing that he's a cheat code :)


Finally, I'd suggest you do try Body Pact. If you think resistances are busted, just wait until you pump every class up to >40% resists while still getting the advantages of another diety (Taurog and Earthmother are the best - TT can work if you're VERY careful about getting hit exactly once by each monster). As you try out Body Pact and get more experience with GG, I suspect you may reevaluate what you consider a cheat code.


But we can at least all agree that Bleaty cheats, right? :)
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Re: Naga City

Postby Darvin on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:59 pm

Btw, I find it amusing that I'm arguing he's stronger than you think, while you're arguing that he's a cheat code :)

Thief is one of the game's strongest classes. Always has been, right back to alpha. I keep telling beginners who are just testing the waters in the alpha to play the thief until they get comfortable. I don't think there's a more newbie-friendly class that remains a powerhouse in the hands of an expert.

But we can at least all agree that Bleaty cheats, right?

On the developer's request for more "progression" feedback I've started a new file and played from the start. It came to my attention that the level where Bleaty is introduced is called "Terror's End", but alas it's only the beginning of the demonic goat terrorizing your dungeon crawls.
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Re: Naga City

Postby The Avatar on Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:07 pm

Hilariously true. Thiefs are pretty good, though. It is the one beginner class that is still great in the hands of a master.
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Re: Naga City

Postby Crawly McCrawlsa on Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:25 pm

Yea, I basically played through all the normal/hard dungeons I could with a thief, unless it was specifically said I should play a different class.
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Re: Naga City

Postby Gorgon on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:07 pm

Lujo wrote:My calling certain classes cheat codes is because they ARE. They are based on breaking fundamental rules of the game, and do so in a fashion that turns "vicious" into "cakewalk".


I don't see how the thief breaks game rules. He has nothing extremely game-breaking. He's just quite overpowered, but if his potions get re-balanced (like restoring just 20% of the opposite potion's effect, not 40%), it would be ok...

And I've argumented this a lot, doing the math on Monk proves that he is not "a little out of tune" but in fact capable of outdoing a non-resist char at lvl 10 by about 6X as much damage per full HP bar, without extra regen included in the mix. That's not "a little out of tune". That's mortifying. No, wait, he's able to outperform someone who does 2X times as much damage per hit as him by 4-6 times. Thats... Just go do the math.


No, he can't. A character with 100 attack, 25% resists and 130 HP can deal 100 damage to a monster with 500 HP and 100 attack, only needing 5 hits and 4 potions to take it down. A monk with 75% resists, 130 HP and 50 attack can take it down with 10 hits, but only needs 2 (or 3, I don't know) potions. It isn't much stronger, is it? The main advantage the monk has over the other character is extra regeneration.
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Re: Naga City

Postby The Avatar on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:47 pm

It's really the combo between them. With his 50 he is effectively regenning twice as much. Double that and it's 4 times as much. 40 to a tile with 50% and who knows how much with 75%?
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Re: Naga City

Postby Darvin on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:49 pm

Unless the class you're comparing it to has an explicit damage bonus (Berserkers, Warlords, and Rogues. Priests if the boss is undead) it's highly unlikely an optimized Monk's attack power will be that far behind. Throw in health->attack prep and a Triling and the Monk will probably end up with somewhere in the range of 15-30% less damage than other characters.

The regen definitely adds up, particularly on levels like Naga City and Gaan-Telet where you get new exploration opportunities at regular intervals.
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Re: Naga City

Postby gjaustin on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:13 pm

Darvin wrote:Unless the class you're comparing it to has an explicit damage bonus (Berserkers, Warlords, and Rogues. Priests if the boss is undead) it's highly unlikely an optimized Monk's attack power will be that far behind. Throw in health->attack prep and a Triling and the Monk will probably end up with somewhere in the range of 15-30% less damage than other characters.

The regen definitely adds up, particularly on levels like Naga City and Gaan-Telet where you get new exploration opportunities at regular intervals.


Assuming 3 of each power up, a Monk does 30 damage at level 10, while a Fighter does 65 - more than double.
Throw in a Health to Attack, and it's 36 to 75 - still more than double.
Throw in a Trisword and 5 health potions and it's 54 to 97 - still 75% more.


Oh, just found the error in my previous math. So ignore my double damage per health bar comment. It's more like 50% more, which seems fair for 2 ability slots.
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Re: Naga City

Postby Lujo on Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:02 am

Regarding the thief, balancing him is easy, just nerf the potions and you're set basicaly. The way it is it's overpowered, a small fix would make it balanced. Small fix - huge difference.

Regarding the monk - one full health bar = 20 Drac piety, +10 for each sucessive bloodswell. If the monk gets 2X the damage out of one bloodswell, that breaks all kinds of things. As he can hit his (75%) cap with dragonshield and 2 patches hits, he is free to use all his piety farm on bloodswells and poison (and he can think of Pactmaker as a piety farm, instead of wasting loads of piety on Body Pact). With 2X the regen and ease of getting poison, the damage advantage spirals out of control very fast.

And as soon as you up the damage in any way the comparison between a 75% resistance and 25% resistance char starts going in favour of the 75% resists guy. Because he can get more hits in, and because he doesn't have to waste slots on resistance after 2 patches hits, he can afford more damage items, which leads to posible parched runs of Naga City.

Again, this is also a huge advantage that can easily be fixed - tweaking monks starting resists, and adjusting his starting disadvantage would do wonders. Make him work for his resist cap like everybody else does, and he wouldn't have the ease of booning himself into godhood. 2X hp regen out of exploration is still broken (by default, the guy starts at nearly 2X the available resources compared to everybody else). Basicaly, what's wrong with him is that he was designed for flavour and elegance of look (nice rounded visualy sensible numbers like 50% resists, 2X exploration), which translated to broken gameplay.
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