Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby gjaustin on Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:53 pm

I suspect that Blue Bead will be rather good with the Mystera Paladin now. You should make a profile and give it a try yourself. It may even be crazier than your Paladin profile.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:57 pm

I am playing a mysteria paladin right now on THIS profile, and It's not only crazier than it was, it's also the only way I can think of to BEAT the damn dungeon and get the pics. And I got through the goos with only the bead, and then realized that Mysteria spawns with the trolls, and that it would've in fact been easier to beat the blobs if I knew that beforehand.

And it would certanly be easier to get through the bandits :D

Anyway, despite massive amounts of untouched stuff that should've been fixed/changed/reconsidered/reositioned a long time ago, and fresh retardedness to try out, I am supremely happy with this update and have good feelings about the devs.

If they don't fix the potion question with the next update, I'll be back in my screaming-bloody-murder harangue mode in no time, and with good cause.

(also, the monk nerf I like, although it might take some more fine tuning. He's still he'lla strong. And the conversion stone nerf was nice.)
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby dislekcia on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:15 pm

Lujo wrote:If they don't fix the potion question with the next update, I'll be back in my screaming-bloody-murder harangue mode in no time, and with good cause.


Be warned that you were flirting with being banned for being an asshole earlier. There is really no reason to carry on like you did - I have to keep this forum a friendly, useful place for everyone. If you act like a child, expect to be sent outside.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm

dislekcia wrote:
Lujo wrote:If they don't fix the potion question with the next update, I'll be back in my screaming-bloody-murder harangue mode in no time, and with good cause.


Be warned that you were flirting with being banned for being an asshole earlier. There is really no reason to carry on like you did - I have to keep this forum a friendly, useful place for everyone. If you act like a child, expect to be sent outside.


I know, i know, I'm not really serious about haranguing, and I was being an asshole. I was trying to point stuff out earlier, but it didn't get ANY meaningfull atention, so I felt like I had to resort to what I did. And it got things done. And I wasn't a whiny hardcore, a was a very do-what-it-takes CASUAL.

It wasn't just about convincing you, it was about convincing the rest of the guys to try stuff out, and THAT worked.

Seriously, though, the crashes are the biggest problem right now, but the potions are HUGE. Trying to adjust power levels of stuff (up or down) before letting people have a full shop roster every run is going to lead nowhere. I won't cause a ruckus about anything else (including them), as there aren't any possible ways to f**k up as much as resists due to the nature of them as a variable.

Speaking of which, giving so many bosses mana burn to try keeping halpmeh and cydstep in line just led to scumming up a soul orb being a necessity, do give the new long post in the "game philosohy" thread a read. It's douchebag free, and all true.

And I know full well I was stepping over the line, but i was willing to risk it - that line needed stepping over. I felt really bad about it too. :(
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby TigerKnee on Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:38 pm

You're posting very long, practically essay length posts on a forum about game balance and concepts, if that's a "casual" then it must be the weirdest definition of one ever.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:01 pm

Your ego is astounding. You think change only comes through you. You play up some sort of messiah complex as a savior of the game. Correllation is not causation. You show up with an axe to grind and you grind it down to your knuckles. Suddenly some changes happen that please you. You take credit. As if the developers had NO idea that these might be issues. At best you probably caused them to re-arrange the a list of changes they wanted to make so that some amount of focus could return to these forums. So that we could shift away from your negativity. However, that may not be what is best for the game. Development is often done in a specific order to make other things clearer to see, or make other things easier to develop. Shifting the order could be to a detriment. You could have made things harder for the devs just to stroke your ego on these forums.

If you have as big of an ego as I think, this message won't reach you. You will continue to feel completely justified.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:18 pm

Well, my ego is quite large, but you should consider that I was playing the game for months, and I played through the entire alpha, and never pointed out a thing. And never interfeared, posted very rarely and never a lot, patiently waiting for alpha-old issues to get some attention on their own. That's months of being annoyed and aggravated at stuff that was both obvious and possibly quite easy to adress. I didn't "show up" out of nowhere, I was here for a good long while.

EDIT: And if you don't believe me, check this old thread out: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=417&start=10 . That was the old monk. Notice the extent of my interfearance? Notice Darvins reaction? My justification for not posting anything for ages was - if most of the guys here aren't aware of how broken the monk is, then the Devs must be better at the game then them, and the dev's will surely come around to fixing it. And they did nerf him once, but not nearly enough.

I don't think the change comes through me, and if I influenced the reaggangement of their priorities in any way, it was all that mattered. Every time I saw an update, it was obvious what was the current goal, wether adding gods, or monster classes, or whatever, so i kept silent. And by the state of mind of the community, and the changelogs that kept happening, you couldn't really tell if the Devs were aware of some of this stuff at all. Hell, I wasn't aware of the Complicated Tasks I & II shop problem, and it really is big, go ahead an try not unlocking only them, and see for yourself.

I must admit, I do feel like taking some credit for some of this - partly as a way to apologize for being so annoying. And I made this thread as a way to keep spamming my annoyance into one place where it can be easily avoided by anyone who doesn't wan't to hear about it. And I did do a couple of things that were considered impossible or harder than it really was, and prove a hypothesis here and there about what led people to thing it was imossible. So did plenty of other testers and I give them credit for that, and all I've learned and keep learning from them and their efforts. I'm just annoyed that I was forced to even TRY those things to unlock content I was supposed to test -.-

The two essay lenght posts in the game balance philosophy thread are there so anyone can see what led me (and a couple of other guys) to conclude that the recent nerfs are justified and beneficial - they're the history of 2-3 long threads and events, and months of testing the game, boiled down to 2 posts. If someone asks were the nerfs justified, or why they were so vigorously demanded, and the answer takes an essay - let there be an essay. I'll also limit my interfearance into anything for a good while, too.

And for spamming the bugfix thread, I was just trying to give details about crashes, and the circumstances. :(

TLDR: The game was long overdue a reality check, I created, if anything, the circumstances for more people demanding one, stuff happened, and testing and development can go on, and I can return to being my usual unobtrusive self.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby dislekcia on Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:55 pm

Lujo wrote:It wasn't just about convincing you, it was about convincing the rest of the guys to try stuff out, and THAT worked.

...

And I know full well I was stepping over the line, but i was willing to risk it - that line needed stepping over. I felt really bad about it too. :(


90% of balancing this game is about focusing player attention in the right place. If we introduce 4 class changes in one update, none of them get properly tested. We've learned this through osmosis on other game projects via the old forums that DD originated on. We do things like map out when a specific change is going to come in so that we can see the impact it has relative to other issues. We introduce some changes with little to no fanfare and wait for them to get noticed so that we can track what players consider important in the game at the moment... We'd been waiting for people to notice the Troll Heart for months to see if conversion tactics really were an issue - in some ways we WANTED people to be able to convert a ton so that they'd be able to do awesome things with the Dwarves and later, Vampire.

On top of managing that, we have to take comments, feedback and criticism as impersonally as possible. We're pretty good at looking beyond what someone is ostensibly saying to find the actual problems underneath: The classic example here is the one about the game designer who gets told that everyone thinks Gun A is underpowered, so the designer adds more bass to the firing sound, suddenly everyone thinks it's the most effective gun in the game. But we still get it wrong pretty often. That's why having a huge group of players ready and willing to leap onto stuff is awesome. It's just that having a community like this takes time and focus to look after too ;)

Remember the change just before the Monk blew up? Yeah, we were directing attention to him to find out if our assessment of him as not-weak was wrong or not. We knew there was something odd there, we didn't need the polarisation that this thread created, all we needed was the odd - "Whoa, I can beat everything with the monk now, check this score screen!".

xspeedballx wrote:If you have as big of an ego as I think, this message won't reach you. You will continue to feel completely justified.


Nice try though :)

Lujo, try applying the type of attention you demand from everyone else and really listen to what people are saying about how you come across. Every time you try to justify yourself instead, everyone knows you're not actually listening.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:25 pm

dislekcia wrote:Remember the change just before the Monk blew up? Yeah, we were directing attention to him to find out if our assessment of him as not-weak was wrong or not. We knew there was something odd there, we didn't need the polarisation that this thread created, all we needed was the odd - "Whoa, I can beat everything with the monk now, check this score screen!".


I think you overdid that, btw :) Raising his resist cap to 75% was about a 30% increase to his top end effective health.


I suspect a lot of the frustration is that a lot of us would actually prefer to have you making large changes every week to just making a few focused ones. At least for me, the fact that we don't know what your target release date is makes me worry there won't be enough time to tweak things slowly.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:43 pm

dislekcia wrote:90% of balancing this game is about focusing player attention in the right place. If we introduce 4 class changes in one update, none of them get properly tested. We've learned this through osmosis on other game projects via the old forums that DD originated on. We do things like map out when a specific change is going to come in so that we can see the impact it has relative to other issues. We introduce some changes with little to no fanfare and wait for them to get noticed so that we can track what players consider important in the game at the moment... We'd been waiting for people to notice the Troll Heart for months to see if conversion tactics really were an issue - in some ways we WANTED people to be able to convert a ton so that they'd be able to do awesome things with the Dwarves and later, Vampire.


Speaking of which, I'm testing that out right now on my new profile. Dwarven rogues are quite good even without resists, and even after the nerfs. Gj on shutting cydstep down for a while - more people might take a hint. Resists in moderation, coupled with good health gains work wonders, I'll ost some composed feedback on it if the trend looks good.

dislekcia wrote:On top of managing that, we have to take comments, feedback and criticism as impersonally as possible. We're pretty good at looking beyond what someone is ostensibly saying to find the actual problems underneath: The classic example here is the one about the game designer who gets told that everyone thinks Gun A is underpowered, so the designer adds more bass to the firing sound, suddenly everyone thinks it's the most effective gun in the game. But we still get it wrong pretty often. That's why having a huge group of players ready and willing to leap onto stuff is awesome. It's just that having a community like this takes time and focus to look after too ;)

Remember the change just before the Monk blew up? Yeah, we were directing attention to him to find out if our assessment of him as not-weak was wrong or not. We knew there was something odd there, we didn't need the polarisation that this thread created, all we needed was the odd - "Whoa, I can beat everything with the monk now, check this score screen!".


Well, I couldn't tell - from my perspective he didn't "Blow up", he was allways like that. And I knew he was strong from expirience for months and months, but the guys around here weren't taking me seriously while I was being polite. And the "good on you, chap" mentality at the time of subanarks Gaan'Telet win didn't point out at the dephts of the problem. And because the monk was around in this form for so long, nobody really thought he might actually've been borked all this time.

It took making quite a ruckus to get the vets to come to a conclusion that Gann'Telet might not have been there for them to beat, or indeed to run over like we did. I felt like I needed to get all of them complaining to see an age old problem (from my perspective) into finally being adressed. And when the update before the last came around, and you stated that you wanted us to test the new progression, I've had a seizure, and thought, hell, no, all the Gaan'Telet business was all the proof we need, nerf the resists nonsense first - THEN other stuff.

Good thing it inadvertedly led to testing conversions out, eh?

But that only happened because I pupusefully didn't unlock the potions - same as a lot of other stuff, which is why i'm constantly reeating it. God know's how many other things you've planted that will never see light of day because of that.
The Complicated tasks potion unlock bussiness is also seriously messing up testing the "game progresson feel", is it "taken into consideration, changes on the way?" If you guys confirmed more stuff, I'd feel less need to reiterate it over and over. Knowing that Monk was busted for months and nobody saying a word about it kind of got me there...

dislekcia wrote:
xspeedballx wrote:If you have as big of an ego as I think, this message won't reach you. You will continue to feel completely justified.


Nice try though :)

Lujo, try applying the type of attention you demand from everyone else and really listen to what people are saying about how you come across. Every time you try to justify yourself instead, everyone knows you're not actually listening.
[/quote]

I think I've allready explained that I knew how much of an arsehole I was, and while it doesn't in the least bit justify the negative emotions it may have caused, I still feel it was neccessary. You guys might notice that my behaivior has changed quite a bit, and it's sincere - the frustration from seeing stuff I knew was a problem seemingly ignored for months, went away almost comletely when it was finally deal with. I HAD data, and theory, and so much proof - but it seemed to mean nothing, and I felt that all my testing was pointless. A bit of "we got this, will be looked into" here and there would've went a long way - it would've certanly prompted me to stop reiterating.

Remember - you only really noticed me when I got annoying, and I've had to deal with your faults for much, much longer than that, while trying to test YOUR game (program), and enjoy MY game (expireince). Next time try telling us what to focus, at least, I'm happy to report my findings in a composed fashion - just say more clarly what exactly needs testing.
Last edited by Lujo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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