Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Sidestepper on Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:37 pm

Lucky you, I happen to have a helm right now.

Price: 13
Conversion: 50
+1 Mana, +5 HP, +2 Dam

I think you get it by finishing beginner's brigade, but I'm not sure.


I understand where you're coming from on the Elites. This weird meta-game that we're playing is really a puzzle, and the object is to figure out the most consistent set up. If you are already dong well with your set up, then adding a new feature that lets you 'win harder' some times but weakens your position in others, then that isn't a great trade.

It's a little different for me because I went ahead and unlocked all the classes, mostly for the monsters. It just doesn't feel right without the whole bestiary.

Oh, don't worry about Naga City screwing up your god unlocks. All 9 altars spawn normally, and then things go back to business as usual once you finish the map. Same thing with the final tower.

EDIT: I'm really hoping that modding will make it possible to tweak the tables to our liking. I'd like to play a more 'honest' game where I do all the quests, but can excise the 'rewards' that I don't like (I'm looking at you, Complicated Tasks II).

EDIT AGAIN: More digressing... I think that the core of the game works just fine. If you play the random dungeons and don't bring preps, you get an experience very similar to the alpha. If you do bring preps, you should be able to win very consistently, and there's enough wiggle room that it doesn't really matter if your shops and altars are filled with mediocre offers.

The cracks only really show on the most extreme dungeons and the most restrictive quests, where the only way to win at all is to get the magic combination of the most efficient items available. I get the impression that the devs are balancing the game around the 'normal' game, which is where most people are going to spend their time on anyway. The people on this board have been here for a long time and are much more interested in the extreme aspects of the game. It might be just as well that they aren't balancing around our playstyles. I'm really hoping that the game will be moddable enough to hold our intererst after release.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:08 pm

Sidestepper wrote:Lucky you, I happen to have a helm right now.

Price: 13
Conversion: 50
+1 Mana, +5 HP, +2 Dam

I think you get it by finishing beginner's brigade, but I'm not sure.


Tnx for the info, I'd love to have that helm in my pool. It's not begginers brigade that unlocks it though, maybe lvl 3.

Sidestepper wrote:I understand where you're coming from on the Elites. This weird meta-game that we're playing is really a puzzle, and the object is to figure out the most consistent set up. If you are already dong well with your set up, then adding a new feature that lets you 'win harder' some times but weakens your position in others, then that isn't a great trade.


Yeah, overkill's not what I was going for, just consistency, a way to point out to the devs that if they don't fix the broken stuff it invalidates te fun and balanced stuff, and a way around the screwed up economy (in other words, I've sucessfully eliminated most of the scumming from my game, and am now free to see stuff like gorgon).

Sidestepper wrote:Oh, don't worry about Naga City screwing up your god unlocks. All 9 altars spawn normally, and then things go back to business as usual once you finish the map. Same thing with the final tower.


Oh, that's a relief :)

Sidestepper wrote:The cracks only really show on the most extreme dungeons and the most restrictive quests, where the only way to win at all is to get the magic combination of the most efficient items available. I get the impression that the devs are balancing the game around the 'normal' game, which is where most people are going to spend their time on anyway. The people on this board have been here for a long time and are much more interested in the extreme aspects of the game. It might be just as well that they aren't balancing around our playstyles. I'm really hoping that the game will be moddable enough to hold our intererst after release.


Well, my tastes are casual too, I'm just a good mathematitian/strategist. But I do that for a living, I don't want to do that when i sit down for a game of my favourite game. The entire experiment for me wasn't cheesing out, it was just a way to both reduce the tedium of having to scum for stuff and pinpoint what items/classes have no place in the game in the current state. Basicaly, if I had a way to videolog all this (can't be bothered), I could probably make the devs a documentary on "this is wrong, this is wrong, this concept needs tweaking, this is SOOOO wrong, imagine I wasn't a monk here, imagine I didn't have GG here, imagine TT's poison was balanced, would this be possible, etc, etc..."

In other words, you could probably take most of the stuff I used in this run, remove it from the game or severely tweak the nubers on it, adjust the dungeons accordingly, and have a very nicely balanced game. Hell, if there was a user friendly way to mod the game, I'd probably fix all of the stuff I've been abusing in one afternoon, arrange the dungeon and class tiers to make sense and all that.

And the reason I think I could do it right is because I'm not in love with any concept, and i'm one guy who doesn't have to argue changes with other guys, and none of the original concepts were my idea so I wouldn't even thing about trying to make stuff I made work. If i can abuse it, anyone can abuse it, I'd just draw a line somwhere with words "this is wrong" and bring stuf in line with it. Like a publishing editor, really :lol:
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:39 pm

Lujo, I find the difficulty you had with Namtar perplexing. I know someone here has beaten him Purist.

It's not the Crypt, but its definitely one of the easier Vicious dungeons. I'd even rather play it than Magma Mines, Slime Pits, or Shifting Passages.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:45 pm

Also, I think that Hero's Helm might be unlocked by beating one of the dungeons with all four tier 3 classes. Which explains why we haven't seen it.

I'm also wondering where Piercing Wand is (see my other thread that I'll be posting shortly). I *think* that it's from the Bloodmage's Easy quest.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Sidestepper on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:13 pm

Lujo wrote:Oh, and I have one more very important question - if the pactmaker doesn't show up, and I suspect he won't, I have to choose a third god from Mysteria, Dracul, Earthmother and Taurog. Anyone have any thoughts?


Ideally, the 3rd one would either be Binlor (for early piety/conversion/desecration antics), JJ (only useful source of MP in the game), or Pactmaker (good way to burn off excess piety from TT). As it stands, most of the gods on your list are only useful for Agnostic Collar desecration, given that your other two altars are guaranteed to be GG and TT. Dracul is a lot less useful since he lost Blood Power, and he's hard to convert out of if you need your potions/Halpmeh/Cydstep. Mysteria is a pile of crippling curses that you have to pay piety for (seriously, wtf).

Taurog is a nice starting deity because of his easy piety gain, but you already have a guaranteed GG, which is a better opening move. Taurog is a decent god to end with, just because he doesn't restrict your actions very much (the piety loss for spellcasting is not much and is easily offset by eating popcorn), but TT is even better for that sort of thing.

Earthmother is an okay xp generator for fresh characters, but again, you have GG for that sort of thing.

Taurog would follow something like this: You start with GG, convert to TT when there's only popcorn left. Murdering the popcorn will give you PILES of piety, enough to buy everything worth having and still be able to convert to Taurog. Taurog doesn't offer you much, but you could use that last bit of otherwise unspendable piety to buy one of the resistance items.

I think Dracul offers more to a endgame character (Blood Shield and Blood Swell are both excellent), but makes healing complicated and totally screws you if you are relying on Halpmeh. Dracul might be worth it if you can reliably get an Agnostic's Collar.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:32 pm

I agree with the analysis.

Mysteria and EM are good desacration fodder, but GG is practicaly a piety farm in and off himself if I take him first.

Taurog can get me an extra 15% resists if I need them and doesn't restrict my healing the way Drac does (as well as being a good piety farm), and I think I'll go with him, eventually.

Also, I've beaten the hard Gaan'Telet with a purist Orc monk, big whoop.

I worshipped only mysteria (and used no boons, so it turned out I didn't really need any gods), the floors were 1) Bridge Trolls, 2) Vampires, 3) Goats and Horatio, and I eventually converted everyhting besides Halpmeh, +10% Damage Badge, Some H and Mana Potions and the Fine Sword. The only difficult thing was the first Bridge troll, but everything besides that was meh...

What I gather from that is that a purist Orc Monk without any gods is stupidly strong. Ok, I did find a conversion stone along the way, but hey, it was my second try, and I almost beat the animated armor floor on the last one. Got the 5th animated armor down to one hit before running out of resources.

On an unrelated note, I've unlocked the vicious Halls of Steel with a pisorff Orc Wizard (conversion stone), an orc Thief (conversion stone), and an Orc Paladin (conversion stone).

Funny thing hapened with the pally, I converted every glyph but halpmeh and fireball (in retrospect a dumb move considering any orc with enough conversion breaks pissorf) and killed the Indomitable . Then i realized I haven't yet found the other boss, and I found him on the last square - BLEATY -.-' And me with only 35% protection -.-' I used all my resources to gather enough mana and piety and conversion, fireballed him till i had no more mana anywhere, converted everything except - perservarance badge! Took the death protection, just one - and killed him.

Moral of the story? One death protection per level is more than enough. Cydstep is a stupid feature.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby TigerKnee on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:35 pm

Hero's Helm unlocks from a quest that asks you to complete one of the early dungeons (it is either Den of Danger or Venture Cave) as a purist.

I don't know the criteria to unlock the quest itself though.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby dislekcia on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:37 pm

Lujo wrote:In other words, you could probably take most of the stuff I used in this run, remove it from the game or severely tweak the nubers on it, adjust the dungeons accordingly, and have a very nicely balanced game. Hell, if there was a user friendly way to mod the game, I'd probably fix all of the stuff I've been abusing in one afternoon, arrange the dungeon and class tiers to make sense and all that.


Ok, I'm really trying to imagine how you see the game working behind the scenes... It's pretty much impossible for me to see how the game could be data-centric when there are so many special cases for interaction between objects. Then again, I designed the system the game runs on to allow for controlling interactions vs controlling data, based off what we learned with the structure of the alpha and the problems we had with it. If I hadn't built it that way, then gods would only work in a very limited number of ways, or items would only be able to affect specific stats on players and that would be the height of what we could do with the game.

The most user-friendly way to edit the game is via code. It will probably remain that way given how the content's evolved - it only really makes sense to go data-centric when you know exactly what you're going to be working with - we did not have that when we were starting to think about game balance. Which, to be fair, you guys do: You have the game there, in front of you, at all times.

I must admit that we do take hardcore feedback with significant pinches of salt: Only a few months ago people were moaning that the Monk was crap, Quicksilver potions were a waste and the Troll Heart was a horrible item ;) The way that minimalist unlock play is starting to pick up is interesting, it means that there's a speed-run style to playing the game if you want to play it that way. I'm pretty sure that conversion-heavy play is just one minimalist style though, you'll find others. Even if you don't, it's still a good thing for us though because it means that the tri-sword cycle of diminishing strategy has been given alternatives. We'll probably give you a few more as the game continues to evolve too.

Our goal is to give you fun things to discover and make sure no-brainer decisions are kept to a minimum. Personally I'm pretty happy to be poking and prodding at a game system that can have this many hours of enjoyment and inquiry emerge from it, even though that might mean that it's not specifically data-centric or easy to edit. I'm also pretty damn sure that eventually someone will come up with a better way to structure game's our system - but they'll have the advantage of having the complete game to work with.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby dislekcia on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:38 pm

Also, silent update is on the way... Have fun with the vicious tower :)
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:01 pm

Well, you did buff the Monk pretty substantially in the most recent patch :)
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