Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Sidestepper on Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:51 am

Lujo, I don't see how you are consistently getting Enlightenment from GG and still being able to reliably convert out. I usually don't even come close. I think it's doable if you find any early Halpmeh and 'milk' a serpent for its venom, but that doesn't happen every time, or even most of the time.

You can do it rather easily if you have the Agnostic's Collar and a third altar. I think the benefits of Enlightenment are better than having a third option to convert to after draining TT of useful boons.

I've become a big fan of the 2nd level absolution. It gives you somewhere around ~25 HP and at most only removes 10 xp of monsters from the game. The extra HP at 2nd level are HUGE and let you reliably challenge 4th or even 5th level monsters right out of the gate. Combined with Humility, that's a huge purse of extra xp. I like this better than a late game absolution, which gives you massive hp but makes it hard to refill them, which defeats the purpose.

You would think that you would miss having ten extra popcorn monsters around after converting to TT, but you really don't. With Tikki's edge, I find that I can still consistently hit level 9 (with humility, so really level ten) before killing the boss, and level 10 (really 11) is not uncommon. As for the ~50 piety or so I could have gotten by forgoing absolution, eh, I don't need it. I'm ending my games with all of TT's useful boons already bought and still swimming in piety.

I haven't tried starting with TT yet. I think the way to go would be to enter with 50 gold, find 5 more gold in the dungeon, and then buy Poison and Tikki's Edge right off the bat. You can't really use GG at all if you do this. Your late game options are either to just stick with TT (he doesn't have much else to give you at this point, but at least he leaves you alone) or maybe convert to Taurog for an extra 15% resistance.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:20 am

Second or third level of absolution is what i'm doing last couple of runs, too. Read below, and figure out for yourself wether enlightenment is really necessary for you.

Yeah, I'm also amazed I'm able to convert out without a third altar, but I consistently do. I ussually end up riding the conversion Orc gravy train of converting everything but HALPMEH, the +10% badge and as many potions as I can save. I frequently convert burndayraz with no other conversion options avaliable, and I've only recently "institutionalized" the policy of converting mana potions rather than health potions to save hp potions for TT potion boon. It's always tight, and that's sort of what makes the game challenging, with a third, easily desecratable altar, I feel like I'd be cheezing out too much. This keeps things interesting.

The goal is not to abuse broken stuff for me, but to unlock content with no scumming, and since I'm fully aware that walking into a dungeon with a conversion stone Orc Monk knowing i can get a souped up version of assasins signature ability, fighter's signature ability, dodge, and +30 HP with little to no effort is very much like playing god mode, the only reall challenge left is figuring out a way to get out of GG post enlightment. I'd actually be better off skipping it most off the time, as far as actually completing the dungeons is concerned. Especially if I find the tower shield, because that turns the question into wether I want to go through all that trouble for the extra conversion dmg, or stick with 70% resists and no hassle. And i manage to pull the switch off 8 times out of 10.

Having said all that, with the game being the way it is, i'd play no other way than this, everything else is pointlessly grindy and this setup (or an even more convoluted / unbalanced one) is what is required to have a shot at end game content, only you have to scumm for it. Playing it any other way would waste my time, money (as time is money), in game money and nerves.

Also, i've just done vicious halls of steel with my signature monk and no pissedorff, and no poisoning enemies, and i've converted off of GG. It took me 2 tries, as I was sloppy on the first try and ended up having to gamble on dodge for the last hit on Blahblah, but I converted out of GG post enlightenment even then. Ok, i'm mistifying it a little bit, I did prep the knockback mace :D

Any ideas on the other 2 classes? I'm thinking Goblin Assasin (it's what i did last time, before the Goblin buff, assasin bypasses so much annoying stuff, and is a welcome "skip to the boss" cheat :) ), and I'm not sure if there's any no-brainer strats people have discovered. If not, I can probably pull it off with pally and thief. Any thoughts?
Last edited by Lujo on Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:31 am

Oh, and here's a cheezy thought. If the witch can be unlocked with one potion llike someone said earlier, making you able to take one into the dungeons without dilluting the pool, then if I was feeling really cheezy, I'd pick her up, pick up EM, and convert off desecrating EM every time, but I'd pick up one level of cleansing and clan up 3 corrosion with the withc potion, leaving me with only one lvl of corrosion and 20 piey worth of items richer as I settle into TT mode.

I mean, I figured taht out ages ago, and deciding whether I wanted to cheeze taht way was a question for a while, but I wanted to make my game interesting and keep my options open. I figured out that getting 4 corrosion wouldn't mess me up too bad, I didn't have a clue about the witch (and am still not willing ot risk it), but I had this idea around the time I figured Pactmaker wouldn't show up.

EDIT: or just pick up Myteria, whos desecration penalyt cant make most bosses able to tackle me what with the resistance curve giving out a lot more bennefits the higher you get. EM would make life easier for classes other than monk, though.

EDIT: If the third altar was Drac, I'd probably be using GG as a piety farm (untill up to 80 piety, he's and amazing piety farm, especialy if you focus conversions, and there's no reason no to. Plus you get Humility and Absolution benefits, and absolution benefits can be turned into Drac piety for converting out of him). Seriously, I feel like unlocking a third god would be cheezing out way too much.

EDIT: Youd skip enlightment that way, and probably lose out on some of absolution benefits, but at least you be able to get 15 resists boon out of Drac for virtually nothing, and if you figure out you'd never reach lvl 10 anyway you could do a +1 lvl +20 piety into bloodswell thingy, as well as get out of TT for more bloodswells later. Seriously, unlocking a third god would be cheeze city.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:33 am

Image

Flaming dungeon. That's bleaty's horn, and I didn't prep any lockered items this time :) No cydstepp, swap off GG post enlightment, I killed him off a dodge (the 10% one), and getindare. I had about 3-5 other ways to get a 100+ hit in, so I'd probably manage to kill him even if he was vicious (I didn't mean to get that dodge, I stacked up my reisists off off endiswall). It could've easily been a purist run, all I took was bet on boss, find altars, the +10% badge and some gold (which wasn't a problem. And I'm obviously full of convertable junk, which means I could've had around 15-20 more GG piety, and god knows how much more DMG.

And I actually could've used another boss here, as lvl up fodder. Except possibly the meat man, in which case I'd use Bleaty as lvl up fodder. And the whole profile is NOT a cheeze profile, a really cheezy profile would be much, much more powerfull on a consistant basis. Think about that.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the only "advanced" unlock necessary for this is the Orc and the Tinker (on a purist run). Low hanging fruit? Low hanging PLANTATION!
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby gjaustin on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:37 pm

I would like to point out that there are a number of strategies other than GG/TT that works for dungeons. GG/TT just seems to work for all of them.

For example, Taurog works very well for Berserkers on Dragon Isles and Monks most anywhere. JJ Gnome works quite well in a few places too.

As for the Witch, I am now 100% sure that unlocking her and getting the first upgrade doesn't cause potions to appear in the shops.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:21 pm

I'm not so sure about GG/TT working for all of them, for example, I have only beaten Vicious Halls of steel and Naga City with Monk. It WAS easy (see screenshot), but i can't really see other classes pulling it off on just that. I struggled with Namtar too.

Image

What beating naga city with Monk looked like. No enlightment, no collar, and no whoopaz. I had most trouble with Frank and Goo, Bleaty was a pushover. Oh, and if you're without the soul orb like I was, the Wraith boss is a small but significant headache.
Last edited by Lujo on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Sidestepper on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:23 pm

gjaustin wrote:As for the Witch, I am now 100% sure that unlocking her and getting the first upgrade doesn't cause potions to appear in the shops.


That's right. The first Witch upgrade gives you a third potion slot and access to Fort and Burn potions. It's only after you do Complicated Tasks I and II that she 'rewards' you by stocking the shops.

I think the devs really over estimated the usefulness of consumables versus long term items. Most of the hard-rock Complicated Tasks series is dedicated to edging out normal items with piles of weird specialty potions, and the Bazaar has a preparation where you actually pay gold to have this happen even more!
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:30 pm

Well, TBH, potion's ARE powerfull, most items in my shops aren't as powerfull as a HP or Mana potion, definitely nowhere near a schadenfraude, or the two TT potions. It's just that the anti-corrosion and burn-salve are worse than conversion fodder, and so is STR most of the time unles prepped.

Whoopaz is certanly more powerfull than any item, it's just that potions, the way they are are really, really situational.

I'll unlock he witch then, it might be usefull.
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby TigerKnee on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:50 pm

Well... I love Strength Potion. It pretty much at least gurantees a kill of a monster 1 level above you but very often you can probably aim higher and go for much more bonus exp. That's something a health or mana potion isn't guranteed to do.

And schrenfraude (or however you spell that) is basically for the most part a superior mana pot (aside from curing mana burn). And I would buy mana pots in shops.

It's the poison and mana burn cure potions that are the stinkers. If those shops were IN addition to the normal shops then they might see some use but...
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Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Sidestepper on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:05 pm

The higher tier potions are great. Strength gives you the best mana-to-damage ratio in the game, and can be leveraged more than a health potion. Schadenfreude is usually equivalent to two mana potions, and whopaz is amazing.

It's just that they cost a lot in shops, and I usually prefer to long term staying of items, either through direct use or through conversion. But the aforementioned potions almost always become part of my potion kit if I have a fully upgraded Witch's Hut.

The fortitude and burn potions were welcome solutions to previously untreatable conditions, but they have no business appearing in 90% of the maps. They really should be prep-only.
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