Tikki Tokki potions need more accurate descriptions

All things Desktop Dungeons

Tikki Tokki potions need more accurate descriptions

Postby Sidestepper on Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:32 pm

Both are misleading, and I still haven't fully figured out how the dodging potion works.

The Reflex potion grants you 1st strike. Moreover, if the monster survives the attack, and then you survive its counterattack, you get a free retaliation attack (which happens automatically and is easy to miss if you aren't looking for it). The tooltip doesn't explain this at all.

The Quicksilver potion is also weird. '10% stacking dodge' sounds like to gives you a 10% dodge bonus which is stacked with any existing bonuses. What it actually means is that you are given a 10% dodge chance, and after every attack you make, the dodge chance increases by 10%. After three stacks, your dodge rate is increased to 100% (which is not reflected on the status icon but shows up in the combat prediction window as !!Dodge!!, a confusing indication with no precedent elsewhere in the game and uniterpretable without extensive experimentation).

I'm still not clear how this potion works if you already have innate dodge. Does the potion still get discharged if you 'naturally' dodge the attack?

I tried to test this using a Rogue who had already taken the Dodge boon. I got a really weird result. The rogue failed all three dodges, and then got the autododge, which clears the potion effect. I got this same result with three different runs. The odds of this happening are extremely low. The first dodge is 40%, then 50%, and then 60%. To have all three of those fail, and three times in a row, suggests that I either have cosmically bad luck or that the quicksilver potion actually deactivates ALL dodge effects (including its own) until the autododge is reached, is uh, is not what it says on the label.

EDIT: Just tested this twice more. Still the same results, although this I noticed that a dodge-booned rogue hits autododge after 2 tries instead of 3 (which is different for other classes).

The odds of this being a coincidence are 0.23%. It looks like the dodge potion actually PREVENTS you from dodging at all until you reach the autododge threshold (which seems to be affected by the presence or absence of the Dodge boon). This means that the dodge prediction displayed on the character screen is entirely fictitious and potentially dangerous. The potion is also unattractive for rogues (over four attacks, a rogue has a 59% of getting at least one dodge, and a 10.2% of getting two or more. The potion changes this to a 0% dodge for 3 rounds, and then gives you a 100% dodge on the fourth. That is a ho-hum trade and will sometimes even be detrimental).
Last edited by Sidestepper on Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:36 am

Re: Tikki Tokki potions need more accurate descriptions

Postby Lujo on Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:44 pm

It's also buggy, as guarantees that you can't dodge the very next attack after you drink it.

And the retaliation thing is also a problem as that word never apears elswhere and the tooltip is worded in a way that assumes that anyone will understand what that it means what Sidestepper said. And people don't, obviously.

While we're on the subject, the Blue Bead needs a clearer tool tip, one that sayes "I R IN UR SHOPZ, DILLUTING UR POOLZ". Either that or a buff to 2 mana per kill for one update so we can check if it breaks the wizard. Or a decent price and conversion rate. I'd still love the tooltip, though, it would keep this spam on topic.
I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
User avatar
Posts: 3793
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Tikki Tokki potions need more accurate descriptions

Postby xspeedballx on Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:22 pm

Honestly, I had zero problem understanding the intent of either of those two potions from first read. I can't speak for why I wouldn't and why others would though. I read "retaliation" as counter attack, which would imply I hit them again after they hit me. Since my first attack was not a counter-attack but an initial one I presumed 2 hits and damage done always seemed to reflect it.

As for the stacking dodge, again I had no problem understanding what it meant to stack(there are other mechanics that use the word stack and I could extrapolate). Also checked my dodge rate while using it. As well as dodge prediction, knowing that there was a combat prediction indicator(safe, death, protected, etc.) I figured a dodge would show up there, and it did. However, I fully agree it's overall functionality is buggy or at least counter intuitive. It should:
Stack until it predicts a dodge, and go away when that dodge happens. While this is mostly what it does, the fact that you cannot dodge right after using(never seen it happen) and that you can have a 100% dodge rate by the tooltip(6 non-dodges in a row) and STILL not dodge says there is something wrong.

Note: based on what I can tell it amplifies current dodge rates and provides you increasingly better and tells you when you are going to dodge. It does not differentiate on whether that dodge was because of your innate dodge or dodge it provided. Nor should it. In fact the very functionality of dodge prediction really makes that issue moot because knowing when your next dodge is fairly powerful on it's own.

edit: I suspect though I have no proof that the problem with the first attack after use never dodging probably has to do with WHEN a roll for a dodge is done. I think without the potion a roll for a dodge is always done at the time of an attack. However, with the potion it is does right AFTER the last combat resolution. However the default state is no dodge and there is not a roll check for a dodge upon drinking it.
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: Tikki Tokki potions need more accurate descriptions

Postby Crawly McCrawlsa on Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:05 am

*This post is copy-pasted from somewhere else I previously posted*
The potion will tell you EXACTLY when you will dodge, and will never dodge before that point. Example:
You have natural 10% dodge for some reason to start with in this example.
Thus, you will occasionally randomly dodge an attack without warning.

Now! If you use a dodge potion... (quicksilver? whatever)
You will NO LONGER randomly dodge attacks. Instead, that increasing 10%, 20%, 30%, etc, is just the game's reminder that you will soon dodge an attack at an ever more likely chance!
When this finally occurs, it will Always tell you. That's what "Dodge Prediction" is.
The game decides whether you will dodge a monster's attack before you ever even decide to hit it!
So, that 100% dodge chance in your status window just means that following this next failed attack, you will be gauranteed a dodge, and your status window will say !DODGE! in teal letters instead of the normal SAFE, DEATH, VICTORY etc.
If I have a 30% dodge chance on my status window, but my combat predictor says SAFE or DEATH, I will NOT dodge that attack. Ever. Because my "Dodge Prediction" status says I won't. The potion is a useful way of being gauranteed a dodge that you will know of ahead of time.

While reaching 100% like your case is rather rare, it just so happens that you managed to do it and got unlucky since the game isn't completely clear on the subtle mechanics of how dodge and dodge prediction work.
This is the same reason why you will never dodge the attack after using one of these potions. Because the game has already decided whether or not you will dodge the attack.
I play everything in every genre. Send me a message!
Dear DD Designers, you're awesome. TY!
steam name: bobbywojo (BrbHouseOnFire)
User avatar
Crawly McCrawlsa
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:36 am

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 10 guests