MY thoughts on stuff!

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MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:26 pm

I am starting this thread. I am starting this thread with the full statement that this is both a comprehensive evaluation of mechanics, and a brain dump. These are my opinions. Everything said here is tempered by the fact that: a) I love what I have played and b) I just like making suggestions and my brain just tries to solve problems even problems that aren't really there. I have A LOT to write. I am going to do it in chunks. They likely will take a while. Hopefully too much won't change in between but it is ok if they do. Feel free to reply. But also know that I am fully aware that some of my thoughts are short sighted, personal, and indicitive of my play level. For now I start with classes. I have only managed to find one advanced class/monster so I have no statements on those yet. Oh warning blocks of text incoming.

Classes:
Fighter - I love playing it, because of perception of strength gain(faster leveling). I consider him fun but non-competitive most of the time. Tiered healing at level 10 helps some but in general find his vanilla nature to not be a puzzle piece for any dungeon. One thought of a change is to make his XP requirements be -10% per level rounded up. Essentially changing total xp requirements to level 10 from 275 to 245. Almost identical power wise to +1 per kill but actually extends his power more in late late game.

Berserker - Woo flavor! Is a fun puzzle piece. I find him frustrating to play at times though. For two fold reasons, one is just RNG. Even in magic based dungeons you can be screwed by all the physical monsters being in a level grouping which ruins tempo. With magic being harder to use this can devastate a run by number of resources required to get past this. The other frustration is damage calculation. I will go into this more, but essentially it is time consuming to constantly calculate the extra 30% and makes it less fun.

Warlord - If there is ever a class that begs to behave fundamentally differently than others it is this one. This is a class that is designed around a) using Cysdstep b) barely 3 shotting enemies(2 shot after bonus from low hp), and stacking enough mana so that a mana pot will let you kill something that is just shy of a 4 shot(with three hits, and all sorts of bonus damage). I don't enjoy playing the class most of the time because the mechanics to make it work are essentialy JJ or go home. Stacking mana is often counter productive from a prep point of view to an essentially melee class(you need your mana for cydstep so you won't cast many other spells.) Lastly, the damage calculation feels like a nightmare, but again I will go into this more. I am not sure I am prepared to offer suggestions, but I feel the class is un-fun because of overhead.

Thief - Much has been said about his overpoweredness. I never really understood it. To a large degree I still don't. Part of the problem is I think that instead of all of his abilities synergizing into flavor, they are all just good. When you become a master at the game the resource numbers add up and you have a powerful jack of all trades. However, this seems to be able to be balanced with the value of resources. Really I feel no flavor of a thief though, and that sort of is dull to me.

Rogue - Woo are these guys fun. Get them some HP and they can ruin a lot of dungeons. Without more HP, they can be a frustration of mediocrity. Honestly I would love to see these guys be forced to be more tactical. I see them as opportunists. To do this however I think they would ALWAYS need dodge prediction. If they always had it they could be played much more effectively without having to rely on HP buffs. They would utilize low level mobs as even more unique resource. Though dodges would need to be re-rolled per attack not per hit taken. Regardless, fun to play.

Assassin - A fun puzzle piece. Largely feels blah outside of being a puzzle piece. I think this is because of the problem of third tier clases being tied to the spells they unlock. There benefit is to start with the spell. However the use of there spell feels like a giant resource hog. Especially considering the need to explore around mobs to get benefit of other ability(I like this ability thought, it has flavor). I think this could be improved(and add flavor) such that whenever a mob that has poison CAST on it dies, a 3x3 square is refogged. Sort of a "cloak of shadows" ability. Has flavor and function. This may need to be on only equal or higher level targets or be severely overpowered.

Priest - Never really liked them. Oh sure I feel great when slaughtering undead, and feel terrible when there are none, or none I can reach. Similiar to Berserker problem with magic attack enemies, sometimes you can't find any and you feel gimped. This is offset a little by the extra hp. Calculating optimally using their potions can be difficult, and often not really all that effective. Even with extra hp a lot of bosses still drain most of your hp in one shot. Great you say that is what your potions fix, except that means you have 6 shots at the boss(except for halfling) and then spent. If it not an undead boss, that is likely not enough. Flavorwise I am meh, undead is cool but otherwise I don't feel it.

Monk - So much said about this class since alpha. Always been fun even when "underpowered". Feels unique, more so than the other classes. Wish there was more of that across the board. As it stands now I feel it lost some uniqueness. Since I feel it competes with the Paladin. Not really sure what I would do about that, but one idea I had tossed around for use.. somewhere but could fit here is stacking damage reduction per level. Starts with -1 damage taken, and gets another -2 at level 2 and so one. Ending at -55 damage at level 10. This could be broken severely so some sort of other limiter might need to come into play. But I like the flavor. Starting damage may need to be increased a bit to compensate(for early levels). Won't say much more but just want to repeat I love the unique feel of it's abilities.

Paladin - Stable class. Mono-theism is neat. Cool things you can do with gods when you can ignore punishment. Halpmeh is pretty much what everyone wants to see sitting next to them when they start. This is the least complicated third tier class. I think this is directly related to the fact that it has the most generally useful glyph. I am not sure that is a problem, because there can be fun completixity with mono-theism, enough to end a run if you mess it up.

Wizard - Ranges from fun and unique(spell flinger go!) to blah and underpowered(so I hit things with my smaller stick?). Depends on dungeon, and RNG. Recent changes have improved this some, but still feels like they are better off a spell swords using magic to enhance there hitting. This is problematic because I feel this steps on the toes of the Sorcerer. Honestly I think a lot of this is related to an underpoweredness of Burndayraz. I will touch on this more later. Most of the time that I hear of magic being powerful in the game though it is because of pisorf, which seems awkward especially since they find an extra fireball glyph.

Sorceror - Love them. They are a lot of fun. They let you sort of dishout pain from all directions. They LIKE burndayraz because the mana cost gives more hp back. Scaling on the HP return can be a bit uncomfortable at higher levels. They in some ways get WEAKER as they get higher levels because of it. 10% healing per 1 mana spent would probably be overpowered, but some sort of percent might be cool. Standard damage calculation frustration mentioned before because of mana shield though since it isn't a percent it is far easier to accomodate and calculate.

Bloodmage - Honestly? This is in my mind the perfect advanced class. It is complicated but not arcane. It requires advanced play to get it's full benefit. It rewards thinking carefully about your next move, but doesn't mandate repeated math and number crunching to do that. It is mostly designed around exactly what it wants to do. Like the monk it feels unique and THAT is cool. My only complaint would be a similiar quibble about the class being designed around a spell which I feel should just be inherent like the monk. Double mana regen. I know this can't really be done consistency wise without doing something similar with the other 3 tier 3 classes but just a note.
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Re: MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby q 3 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:49 pm

I like the idea of having Sorcerers regen HP based on % of max HP. It would make Dwarf Sorcerers an interesting option. 5% per MP spent sounds about right at higher levels, although it would be a significant nerf at lower levels. Which I don't think is really that much of a problem - Sorcerers have always been overpowered at low levels, which has become far less of an advantage thanks to preparations making everyone overpowered at low levels, and in any event they will still have their hefty +5 max MP to see them through.
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Re: MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:05 pm

Have you tired regen fighting sorcerers? They are REALY scary.
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Re: MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:10 pm

Lujo wrote:Have you tired regen fighting sorcerers? They are REALY scary.


Oh they are, but that ability is weaker at max level than at the level below it. Not saying the class is, just that ability. I am personally just not fond of a class ability that gets weaker as you level up.
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Re: MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby Gorgon on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:14 pm

Lujo wrote:Have you tired regen fighting sorcerers? They are REALY scary.


I think sorcerers were not meant to be regen fighters (+5 starting MP is certainly not a regeneration-friendly ability).
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Re: MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby The Avatar on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:22 pm

But their HALPMEH is equivalent to 2 levels above them. That makes a good regen fighter.
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Re: MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby Darvin on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:45 pm

The Sorcerer starts as a regen fighter at lower levels with the healing from spellcasting, and then slowly morphs into a burst damage character with his larger mana pool. Overall, he starts strong and gets weaker. With preparations now, this sort of character is not nearly as strong as he was in the alpha. Sorcerer is a top-notch class for purist runs, but outside of this not so much.

On the topic of the Bloodmage, I feel this guy has way way way too much burst damage potential right now. Between blood pools, double-power mana potions, healing potions and copious amounts of pop-corn that a burning heart opening can leave behind, a Bloodmage can have positively insane amounts of resources to throw at the boss. With his recent buff, a well-played Bloodmage is basically a guaranteed win on any hard difficult scenario. On the vicious levels, however, the Bloodmage starts to run into a problem. All his class features revolve around tapping his limited resource supply, which he really needs for a burst-damage against the boss. In the true endurance scenarios, like Naga City, he just burns out and doesn't have a good enough regen game to keep going.

I enjoy the Bloodmage a lot, but the way he's laid out he's just wickedly overpowered in typical scenarios and hopeless in most of the vicious scenarios (I must say, though, winning Dragon Isles as a Bloodmage was a fun challenge).
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Re: MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:51 pm

Darvin wrote:The Sorcerer starts as a regen fighter at lower levels with the healing from spellcasting, and then slowly morphs into a burst damage character with his larger mana pool. Overall, he starts strong and gets weaker. With preparations now, this sort of character is not nearly as strong as he was in the alpha. Sorcerer is a top-notch class for purist runs, but outside of this not so much.

On the topic of the Bloodmage, I feel this guy has way way way too much burst damage potential right now. Between blood pools, double-power mana potions, healing potions and copious amounts of pop-corn that a burning heart opening can leave behind, a Bloodmage can have positively insane amounts of resources to throw at the boss. With his recent buff, a well-played Bloodmage is basically a guaranteed win on any hard difficult scenario. On the vicious levels, however, the Bloodmage starts to run into a problem. All his class features revolve around tapping his limited resource supply, which he really needs for a burst-damage against the boss. In the true endurance scenarios, like Naga City, he just burns out and doesn't have a good enough regen game to keep going.

I enjoy the Bloodmage a lot, but the way he's laid out he's just wickedly overpowered in typical scenarios and hopeless in most of the vicious scenarios (I must say, though, winning Dragon Isles as a Bloodmage was a fun challenge).


I need to sit down and scum the following for a Bloodmage in Naga City

Glowing Guardian topside (and be very careful with blood pools)
Crystal Ball (I could prep this)
HALPMEH

I'm pretty sure he'd be unstoppable after I converted to Mystera and took Mana Leak.
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Re: MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:59 pm

Darvin wrote:The Sorcerer starts as a regen fighter at lower levels with the healing from spellcasting, and then slowly morphs into a burst damage character with his larger mana pool. Overall, he starts strong and gets weaker. With preparations now, this sort of character is not nearly as strong as he was in the alpha. Sorcerer is a top-notch class for purist runs, but outside of this not so much.

On the topic of the Bloodmage, I feel this guy has way way way too much burst damage potential right now. Between blood pools, double-power mana potions, healing potions and copious amounts of pop-corn that a burning heart opening can leave behind, a Bloodmage can have positively insane amounts of resources to throw at the boss. With his recent buff, a well-played Bloodmage is basically a guaranteed win on any hard difficult scenario. On the vicious levels, however, the Bloodmage starts to run into a problem. All his class features revolve around tapping his limited resource supply, which he really needs for a burst-damage against the boss. In the true endurance scenarios, like Naga City, he just burns out and doesn't have a good enough regen game to keep going.

I enjoy the Bloodmage a lot, but the way he's laid out he's just wickedly overpowered in typical scenarios and hopeless in most of the vicious scenarios (I must say, though, winning Dragon Isles as a Bloodmage was a fun challenge).


Well, this was true for a while now, and if all the raising hell and haranguing has though me anything its that this looks suspiciously like when the Dev's gave an allready overpowered but out of fashion class a needless buff to goad people into using him. Good thing too, the other walking cheatcodes got what was coming to them, I sure hope he get's his due. Also, quite nice that they nerfed resists first, and THEN removed all his melle problems, so we have a reason to pick a spellcaster to take in there.

Hmmm, shame my vicious Gaan'Telet is crashing, otherwise i'd go walk all over it with him a couple of times. I'd raise no hell this time, either, just inconspiciuosly post a couple of silly wins on my "guide to playing this game" thread ^^
Last edited by Lujo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MY thoughts on stuff!

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:02 pm

Races:
I don't actually have a lot to say here. Most of what I want to say here really is going to more tie into thoughts on conversion and resources. All of the races have a flavor. All of them maintain them. Not really concerned about balance, because there specific balance is mostly just a number to be tweaked and it isn't necessarily THERE numbers that need to be tweaked.

Spells:
Wonafyt - I never use it. Never did in alpha, never did now. Rock Garden is pretty much the only dungeon where I don't feel pained to kill equal level or lower mobs until late game. I LOVE finding it though, because it one of the few spells after recent balances that I can safely convert now without caring about what I will find later.

Weytwut - Damn this spell. I pretty much HAVE to keep it around until most dungeons are fully explored. It is so versatile with a bunch of uses. This isn't a bad thing. The tweaks over time to it have made it nice to see for most classes and most runs. Even if I use it once and convert it.

Lemesee - On the fence perpetually with it. Use it too early and it hurts you, save it for too late and it hurts you(both in conversion value and actual value). The spell is far more advanced in it's use than it appears. Not necessarily a bad thing. Opportunity cost of resources from it is one of the most complex(in my mind) in the game.

Getindare - Can't say I always love to see it(there is sometimes something I want to see more but ain't that always the truth?) but it is generally an easy spell to decide if you want it or not. If I don't? WOO conversion, if I do? Leave it there until I need it and then WOO conversion. Beginner spells are good.

Bysepps - With recent change I like seeing it. For a lot of the same reasons as getindare. The Resistance dropping is nice though usually feels tertiary. By the time I want to use it on a relevant monster I am calculating whether available resources are better spent fireballing, and they usually are. This isn't necessarily this spells fault.

Endiswall - Like weytwut I tend to keep this around to figure out if I need it. Some dungeons I know I do(shifting sands, labyrinth) and others I keep hoping I will see the tinker. Which I think I have found him several timese when I converted it. FML. I HAVE used it's physical resistance and NEVER regretted it. A great spell with good low and high skill level usage. Feels expensive and mostly got the most use out of it when I had poison.

Imawall - Don't use it. I probably SHOULD use it. But I don't. This again might be mental capacity for strategies. But that is ok because my brain likes things I can convert on sight. More on conversion later.

Pisorf - I will be honest, I might just be too thick to like this spell. Every time I try and get it to work and line things up I end up wasting too many resources hating myself converting it realizing I wasted resources and retiring. I have made limited use of it in restrictive dungeons as a cheap endiswall but that is it. As one of two attack spells I have always felt it was just not fun.

Burndayraz - The old standby. In Alpha it was pretty much necessary to accomplish any amount of high level kills. There were advanced strats written about it. A lot has changed since alpha. Both in monsters health and our damage. The spell feels weak to me most of the time, and whenever I do number crunching of all of the AMAZING things I can do, I generally feel unimpressed by it. This may be why most spell casters turn in to spell swords. The absolute best case scenario(outside of fire heart becuse that is another thing on top of this and it seems to be only piece that really makes it useful) seems to be a wizard, with mana leak, crystal orb, 3x weakening and flames and 21 or so mana(more is possible but lets be real). This does 350 damage at level 10. To accomplish this, -50% physical damage, converted 490 points as an elf and/or increased physical resistance a bunch(and got a truck ton of piety to do it). That feels severely underwhelming. With fire heart and no mana regen so just a blast at a clip and you did 395 damage. Oh sure after that point you will start putting in a world of hurt but at the cost of SOO much resources. *I* think this spell is a problem for casters.

Halpmeh - Healing spells. Under or overpowered and rarely just right. The problem with low number games is finding the "just right" is a nightmare. Tweaking this in any direction from it's base numbers could make it go too far either way from where it is. Not positive it needs to be fixed in my mind though so much as Fireball needs to be improved.

Cydstepp - TO THE GROUND! Many a degenerative strat has made this into a binary of "are you a warlord?" "no?" Convert. See my point above about warlord feeling like it should just be a unique design not something balanced around cydstep, would make all things happier. I honestly didn't use it a lot before the nerf mostly because I didn't really play a rogue. So I really don't use it at all now. It's expensive and a resource hog compared to other options usually.

Poison - A solid meh. Powerful but the people who want it will usually yoink it from tikki tooki and move on. I am not sure how to feel better about it. Again I feel resources are always spent better in another way. Recent tikki tooki nerf may alter that. Also despite previous statement this could also be related to halpmeh strength though honestly not positive.

Bludtopowa - Good for combo's and meh for a lot of other strats. Number scaling for a lot of abilities make this ability a wash often without combo's. Unless you PLAN for that combo AND find this ability often hard to use. This seems leads to the oft maligned "scumming." Still when and doubt CONVERSION!!! ;)
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