Dwarf Fortress

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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby Lujo on Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:58 pm

I see people have caugt on the idea thet the CB is realy, really, broken. I've known when I saw it immediately, especially as it helped me do stuff in Gaan'Telet that was unthinkable before (shame every run ends in a crash).

Didn't want to talk abbout it, as I've raised quite a fuss with the resisist, just before it got introduced, I figured most people would figure out it's practicaly a god-mode cheat item, and the dev's have been surely aware of this all the time.

At the very least, that thing needs a cap. It might even be enough. Determining the exact cap - not sure what we'd be going for.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby gjaustin on Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:46 pm

Lujo wrote:I see people have caugt on the idea thet the CB is realy, really, broken. I've known when I saw it immediately, especially as it helped me do stuff in Gaan'Telet that was unthinkable before (shame every run ends in a crash).

Didn't want to talk abbout it, as I've raised quite a fuss with the resisist, just before it got introduced, I figured most people would figure out it's practicaly a god-mode cheat item, and the dev's have been surely aware of this all the time.

At the very least, that thing needs a cap. It might even be enough. Determining the exact cap - not sure what we'd be going for.


Oh, I knew it was amazingly good when I first saw it too.

I just like the concept behind it and would rather get it adjusted to a better power level than have it completely changed or given a drawback.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby xspeedballx on Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:34 pm

When did lifesteal switch to 1 point per level? Vampiric blade appears to be doing that and so does Dracul.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby xspeedballx on Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:36 pm

Nevermind new patch, no notes yet, church is different too. Will note stuff when thread comes up.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby SnapDragon on Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:48 am

q 3 wrote:Strategic unlocks are a symptom, not the problem. There isn't a single thing that you can do on a limited unlock profile that you can't also do on a fully unlocked profile - you just need a lot of luck, or a lot of time to scum.


I disagree, and think that strategic unlocks are a problem in and of themselves. Luck is a "resource", too. By your logic, the existence of 10% dodge makes it feasible to complete every dungeon without getting hit. ;) Limited-unlock profiles are essentially an unintended abuse of the "luck" resource.

My understanding of the designers' goals is that they WANT players to have to manage "luck" by making do with suboptimal dungeon/altar/shop layouts. Preparations mitigate this somewhat, but the intent was never for luck to go away. And as long as this is the case, and as long as it's possible to do end-game challenges with limited unlocking, doing so will ALWAYS be an advantage. (I don't care about mid-game challenges as much; presumably they won't require pushing the limits in the same way.)

On the other hand, I do agree that scumming being too useful (or even necessary) is a separate problem. That's a much harder one to solve, though, and one that the devs clearly are trying their best to fix. :)
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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby fall_ark on Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:03 am

SnapDragon wrote:
q 3 wrote:Strategic unlocks are a symptom, not the problem. There isn't a single thing that you can do on a limited unlock profile that you can't also do on a fully unlocked profile - you just need a lot of luck, or a lot of time to scum.


I disagree, and think that strategic unlocks are a problem in and of themselves. Luck is a "resource", too. By your logic, the existence of 10% dodge makes it feasible to complete every dungeon without getting hit. ;) Limited-unlock profiles are essentially an unintended abuse of the "luck" resource.

My understanding of the designers' goals is that they WANT players to have to manage "luck" by making do with suboptimal dungeon/altar/shop layouts. Preparations mitigate this somewhat, but the intent was never for luck to go away. And as long as this is the case, and as long as it's possible to do end-game challenges with limited unlocking, doing so will ALWAYS be an advantage. (I don't care about mid-game challenges as much; presumably they won't require pushing the limits in the same way.)

On the other hand, I do agree that scumming being too useful (or even necessary) is a separate problem. That's a much harder one to solve, though, and one that the devs clearly are trying their best to fix. :)


Players only took to scumming because Vicious dungeons are so, well, Vicious. Else we'd all be pretty happy go with the flow and scum for a purist Hard dungeon run or two now and then.

Sure. Even the Hard Gaan-Telet would require much luck because certain floors are so so difficult, but that map is small enough for it to not be a problem. Now Vicious dungeons? You might even explore 1/3 of the whole map without finding a good first kill. And try to win them would require so much luck, even good runs can fall short. And it gives such an overwhelming impression of difficulty that one does not see any possibility other than "scum some more".
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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby Lujo on Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:51 am

Scumming was neccessary for certain situations or rather seemed so. The mana burn mechanic in particular, when put on bosses, makes Soul Orb mandatory in so many cases that you can't really go without it, and since the same was also true for a coulpe of items that you HAD to prep, you almost always ended up scumming for the orb.

My original "unlock the leas amount of stuff you need to beat the game" was really all about not having to scum for Soul Orb, most of everything else I "discovered" on that run, and by discovered I mean "recognized by me (as in I personally wasn't aware of how good it was before)" to be additional stuff I felt good about finding in a regular dungeon run as opposed to stuff I never had any (or little) incentive to use. Including gods - originally I unlocked TT to help me FARM GOLD in every run (so I don't get bored scumming for other stuff and failing).

But the main issue was Soul Orb. Anyone could complete the Old Gaan'Telet with soul orb, and noone could do it without it (except Berserker, but that was an exception). It's the same now, ony the end boss has mana burn, just one enemy in a 10 story dungeon, and even on a completely minimalist profile you can write off any run without soul orb - an item you won't need untill you reach the boss, and then it will just sit in your inventory doing nothing just so you can use both phys and magic against him with some ease.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby Darvin on Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:51 pm

The issue with the Soul Orb is that mana burn is such a potent and devastating effect. Having mana burn vastly increases the difficulty of a monster, particularly a boss. As a result, an item that gives you immunity to mana burn is on the same lines as the old Piercing Wand against bosses with high magic resist; it's an item that lets you just flat out ignore their primary strength.

I think mana burn needs to be split into two effects; mana drain, and mana burn. Drain reduces your mana to 0 (or perhaps by a set amount like 10) but does not preclude regeneration, while burn precludes regeneration but does not actually take away your mana (similar to how poison affects HP). Soul Orb would grant immunity to mana burn, but not mana drain. This would put the Soul Orb more closely to the Poison Ward in terms of usefulness.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby The Avatar on Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:07 pm

That makes a lot of sense... Would there be a mana drain immunity item?
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I speak chaos.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress

Postby Darvin on Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:24 pm

Total immunity? I'd say no. I'm not opposed to an item that lets you mitigate the effect of mana drain, but the current soul orb has proven that completely ignoring such an effect is just too powerful.
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