The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

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The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby gjaustin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:27 pm

So Dwarf Fortress has seriously changed around the class balance, so much that I'm a bit unsure where everything fits into place. I'm going to make my best guess below, but I'd love to see some other people's thoughts.


High
-----
Paladin (Still the most solid reliable class)
Assasin (Fireball changes synergize very well with Poison + corrosion boost)
Rogue (Requires JJ due to Dwarf nerf, but very strong with Namtar's Ward)
Warlord (Still solid and reliable)
Wizard (Great with Wharrgarbl, HALPMEH, or PISORF)
Monk (Abundance of magic damage monsters has dropped him quite a bit)

Mid
---
Sorcerer (A beast with Fireball combined with Wharrgarbl, Crystal Ball, and/or Fireheart)
Berserker (Unable to efficiently use Fireball, but new magic damage monsters balances that out)
Gorgon (Fireball + Wharrgarbl synergizes VERY well with her built in poison strike - damage is still low though)
Thief (Trisword nerf hurt a lot)
Priest (Trisword nerf hurt a lot, but health buff bumps him up to roughly equivalent with Thief)
Half-Dragon (Capable of a lot of burst damage, but has problems with magic resist monsters)
Fighter (Levels up really, really fast!)
Bloodmage (Provides nothing another class can't get from just finding BLUDPOWA)

Low
----
Tinkerer (Provides nothing another class doesn't provide, especially due to item costs being reduced)
Crusader (Probably has some broken Mana Leak combo, but damage boost is too conditional)
Transmuter (Has potential, but balanced far too weak)
Vampire (A Dwarf Crusader who can't get resists. I'm serious - do the math!)
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Re: The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby q 3 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:41 pm

I'd honestly put Assassin on top of everything, mainly due to Swift Hands. Fireballs are now obscenely overpowered if you're willing to abandon your physical attack - and unlike any other class, Assassins are perfectly happy to give up their physical attack.

I haven't tested this because I haven't unlocked him on any of my current profiles, but I'm pretty sure the Crusader can't get immunity to the Mana Leak penalty - it doesn't apply the normal "Weakning" malus, but rather its own special status that directly reduces damage done. (I still think Crusaders should be able to get immunity to Death Gaze as well as Reduce Resists - the latter would be even more valuable with the new bandits / Tomity.)

I still like Tinkers, and the reduced item costs actually help them to a large extent because their fixed -5 cost reduction works better with cheap items than with expensive ones. However, my love for them is limited to purist runs where they shine; I can definitely see how they don't gain much relative to other classes once you add preparations back in.
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Re: The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby Gorgon on Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:46 pm

gjaustin wrote:High
-----
Paladin (Still the most solid reliable class)
Assasin (Fireball changes synergize very well with Poison + corrosion boost)
Rogue (Requires JJ due to Dwarf nerf, but very strong with Namtar's Ward)
Warlord (Still solid and reliable)
Wizard (Great with Wharrgarbl, HALPMEH, or PISORF)
Monk (Abundance of magic damage monsters has dropped him quite a bit)

Mid
---
Sorcerer (A beast with Fireball combined with Wharrgarbl, Crystal Ball, and/or Fireheart)
Berserker (Unable to efficiently use Fireball, but new magic damage monsters balances that out)
Gorgon (Fireball + Wharrgarbl synergizes VERY well with her built in poison strike - damage is still low though)
Thief (Trisword nerf hurt a lot)
Priest (Trisword nerf hurt a lot, but health buff bumps him up to roughly equivalent with Thief)
Half-Dragon (Capable of a lot of burst damage, but has problems with magic resist monsters)
Fighter (Levels up really, really fast!)
Bloodmage (Provides nothing another class can't get from just finding BLUDPOWA)

Low
----
Tinkerer (Provides nothing another class doesn't provide, especially due to item costs being reduced)
Crusader (Probably has some broken Mana Leak combo, but damage boost is too conditional)
Transmuter (Has potential, but balanced far too weak)
Vampire (A Dwarf Crusader who can't get resists. I'm serious - do the math!)



I'd move rogue and paladin above anything else, too. And move crusader and tinkerer to mid tier.
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Re: The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby gjaustin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:34 pm

Gorgon wrote:I'd move rogue and paladin above anything else, too. And move crusader and tinkerer to mid tier.


For what it's worth, the list is intended to be in a rough order. I kind of arbitrarily drew the Low/Mid line to keep the Transmuter and Vampire from being lonely.

I could have just as easily moved the HIgh/Mid line to below the Berskerer and bumped the Paladin, Assassin, and Rogue up into their own God Tier.
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Re: The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby Darvin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:57 pm

I'd say you've undervalued the Bloodmage. He still has blood pools, which gives him a considerable amount of end-game damage spiking power. More to the point, he's lost his flavor and has become a 1-trick pony. I'd also say you've overvalued Sorcerer. He still rocks at out at low levels, and I'd say he belongs squarely in the middle of mid-tier, not the top.

Vampire is much better than the current Transmuter. In fact, I don't think he belongs in bottom-tier at all. If you scum for BLUDTUPOWA, he's actually a scary spellcaster. This is because BLUDTUPOWA allows you to convert lifesteal into mana, so killing a popcorn monster is basically a full mana restore for a Vampire. It's hard to get a strong Vampire off the ground and he needs a lot of scumming, but if everything lines up he plays like a high-tier character. This guy could very easily be overbuffed, since his primary issue right now is luck of the draw in getting the right altars/items/glyphs...
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Re: The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby gjaustin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:25 pm

I tried out Lifesteal + BLUDPOWA. I was getting something like 3 mana back for 25 lifesteal. That's a pretty awful ratio.

You agree that Vampire requires Dracul right? A Dwarf Dracul anything is better than a Dracul Vampire. The Vampire gets 11 Lifesteal for 440 conversion points, while a Dwarf gets 10 damage reduction for 450. Then the Blood Pool healing, Poison/Mana Burn Immunity, and extra health barely make up for the reduced health regen and lack of resists.


Edit: You may be right about the Sorcerer and Bloodmage. But there's a lot of dungeons where the Bloodmage can't use his blood pools.
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Re: The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby Darvin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:50 pm

You agree that Vampire requires Dracul right? A Dwarf Dracul anything is better than a Dracul Vampire. The Vampire gets 11 Lifesteal for 440 conversion points, while a Dwarf gets 10 damage reduction for 450. Then the Blood Pool healing, Poison/Mana Burn Immunity, and extra health barely make up for the reduced health regen and lack of resists.

The Vampire's ability to drink from his blood pools gives him piety with Dracul, allowing him to boost his life-steal much higher. With a sensation stone and a few good purchases, you should be able to hit 25 lifesteal without the aid of Dracul. Dwarves can only hit 25 DR as a Transmuter, and that can't be converted to mana using BLUDTUPOWA. By primarily relying on BLUDTUPOWA to double his mana regeneration and then avoiding exploring while exhausted, a Vampire can mostly sidestep his atrocious health regeneration. His lack of resists are a bit of a problem at higher levels, but this guy won't be playing a melee game against high-damage bosses.

As I said, the problem with the Vampire is primarily that he needs the right altar, glyphs, and items and he needs them early to get his combos rolling. If he gets his desired combos online he'll be level-up catapulting like mad and will easily have enough popcorn to cast the bosses to death. If he can't get the combos he needs, he's going to suck horribly. As a result, he's more nuanced rather than irredeemably bad.


But there's a lot of dungeons where the Bloodmage can't use his blood pools.

There's lots of dungeons where the Sorcerer can't leverage his strong low-level performance.
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Re: The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby Gorgon on Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:00 pm

Darvin wrote:Vampire is much better than the current Transmuter. In fact, I don't think he belongs in bottom-tier at all. If you scum for BLUDTUPOWA, he's actually a scary spellcaster. This is because BLUDTUPOWA allows you to convert lifesteal into mana, so killing a popcorn monster is basically a full mana restore for a Vampire. It's hard to get a strong Vampire off the ground and he needs a lot of scumming, but if everything lines up he plays like a high-tier character. This guy could very easily be overbuffed, since his primary issue right now is luck of the draw in getting the right altars/items/glyphs...


He can eat popcorn monsters for MP, but you end up not getting HP and it's the only way to effectively regenerate health (other than blood pools, which I usually save for the boss). I suggest lowering his CP to 30.
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Re: The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby gjaustin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:48 pm

Darvin wrote:
But there's a lot of dungeons where the Bloodmage can't use his blood pools.

There's lots of dungeons where the Sorcerer can't leverage his strong low-level performance.


That isn't the case so much anymore. Now that you get full heals for reaching an experience threshold past 10, low-level performance matters more.

For example, before you didn't want to enter the Naga City Arena any later than level 7 or 8, otherwise you would lost out on too many resources. Now, you want to enter at level 10 if you can!

So the Sorcerer's exceptional low level performance provides him bonus experience to better help in those dungeons. And in the dungeons where the Bloodmage can use his pools, he can use the extra unexplored spaces to build up Burning on the boss.

Edit: And the gap between Sorcerer and Bloodmage on that list is pretty small. All of the mid-tier is very well balanced. If it were another day, I'd probably have them in a completely different order. I'd also be interested to see your ordering.
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Re: The Post-Dwarf Fortress Tier List Thread

Postby q 3 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:02 pm

Well, the problem for the Sorcerer is that his low level performance is more about vanilla tanking than it is about burst damage or insane feats; he can get several full heals in a row at lv 1-2, but he can't take hits any better than a Fighter. Once you get to dungeons where the monster damage multiplier is set high enough, his inability to survive a blow from most higher level monsters renders his healing ability useless. Contrast that with Berserker, Warlord, Rogue, Assassin, Monk, Paladin, and Wizard, who all either have the ability to tank high damage hits or the ability to get high level kills without taking damage.

Also, since post level 10 refreshes continue to require more and more XP, I find that you still generally want to enter the arena in Naga City at around level 9; you only have 90 XP incoming if you're already at level 10, which is barely going to get you two full refreshes.
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