New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters.

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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby The Avatar on Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:16 am

Although no Lifesteal from bloodless guys... Stupid Plants.
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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby gjaustin on Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:25 am

fall_ark wrote:
gjaustin wrote:
fall_ark wrote:The thing is, Conversion bonus of Damage Reduction is also an interesting concept, if done right


Actually, I disagree.

At their core, damage reduction and lifesteal are the same mechanic. There are subtle differences, but in the end they're the equivalent of giving monsters weakening.

I'd rather see the Dwarf get Health back and give Vampire lifesteal (120 for 1 lifesteal is probably fair).



And at their core Attack and Base Damage are also the same mechanic. In the end they're the equivalent of making monsters die faster. Also Burning and Corrosion, except one burns out and one does not. Just like Damage Reduction and Life Steal - one gives you extra HP, one doesn't.
Speaking of which, does Life Steal work against Undead and Lifeless monsters?

I would definitely *choose* Damage Reduction sometimes if that option is available. And I love more options. That's all I'm saying.


I see what you're getting at, but I still have to disagree.

Attack and Base Damage are fairly different, since once is a flat amount and one is a percentage. They interact differently with various abilities, resulting in each being better in distinct cases.

A percent-based damage reduction would actually interact very well with Lifesteal! Except we already have that in resists. Resists and Lifesteal, like Attack and Base Damage, interact with each other. Are there any synergies that Damage Reduction has? I certainly can't think of any.

Burning and Corrosion are fairly close, but Burning extinguishing itself gives it some room to differentiate itself.

The differences between Lifesteal and Damage Reduction are what makes Damage Reduction awful. It's applied before resists, doesn't scale, and can't heal you. Lifesteal is better in every case except one - you need to hit the boss one more time and there aren't any low level monsters left. Well, two if you count GG and Earthmother hating it. A fixed damage reduction would be exactly the same as Lifesteal, without overhealing or piety penalties.


I don't mind damage reduction showing up in some places (Earthmother and Shields). I just don't think it's nearly an interesting enough ability to be a race bonus. And if it were fixed to be interesting enough, it would almost certainly end up broken once people start taking 0 damage from bosses.


TLDR - Damage Reduction is worse than both Lifesteal and Resists. Fixing it would either turn it into a duplicate of one of those two or make it wildly broken.
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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby Ara on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:03 am

A bit off topic but Earthmother boons could be improved with a simple cost rebalance:
- Green Blood (corrosion): instead of 5(+5) make it 10(+2). The first 4 points cost more (cumulatively), then it's cheaper. (10 corrosion would cost a total of 180 piety instead of the current 275).
- Vine Form (DR/hp): instead of 5(+3) make it 8(+1). The first 4 cost the same (cumulatively), then it's cheaper. (13 DR / 26 HP would cost 182 piety instead of 299 which is still too pricey in my opinion).

Making Vine Form scale like Blood Hunger would be much better anyway: a one time 1 DR / 2 HP per level (the DR taking place after resists) for 40 piety ? And if DR will never be applied after resists, make it repeatable like 40(+40).
Last edited by Ara on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby Darvin on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:11 am

The problem with both Vine Form and Green Blood is that their usefulness drops off dramatically as you level up. Unless you find the Earthmother very early you just don't have enough time to leverage them, and if you want to really push them up to high levels you won't have enough piety for anything else.

I'd say Green Blood and Entanglement should be consolidated into a single boon, and Vine Form should also gain the effect of her old boon that provided you with conversion points. This would free up space for a new boon, which I feel Earthmother desperately needs to become competitive. Her current offerings just aren't worthwhile enough to make a stand-alone deity.
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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby fall_ark on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:50 am

gjaustin wrote:The differences between Lifesteal and Damage Reduction are what makes Damage Reduction awful. It's applied before resists, doesn't scale, and can't heal you. Lifesteal is better in every case except one - you need to hit the boss one more time and there aren't any low level monsters left. Well, two if you count GG and Earthmother hating it. A fixed damage reduction would be exactly the same as Lifesteal, without overhealing or piety penalties.



Or when Dracul doesn't spawn. Or when Vampiric Blade has a fixed Lifesteal of 5 and isn't always available.

It would be worse than Lifesteal in several aspects, but more reliable in other circumstances (e.g. usable under GG, synergy with Earthmother, applies even when the enemy attacks you first, etc). *And* they stack.


gjaustin wrote:I don't mind damage reduction showing up in some places (Earthmother and Shields). I just don't think it's nearly an interesting enough ability to be a race bonus. And if it were fixed to be interesting enough, it would almost certainly end up broken once people start taking 0 damage from bosses.


If a player takes extreme measures specifically aimed to take single digit damage from one or few bosses....what's so broken about it? It's not unlike an Elf Crystal Ball JJ to MA Wizard that fireballs his way through "taking 0 damage from bosses".

Darvin wrote:I'd say Green Blood and Entanglement should be consolidated into a single boon


Green Blood is something you want early on while Entanglement is something you save for the big fights. Either the cost makes Corrosion too cheap or Entanglement too expensive. I'm torn on this one.

I'm okay with slightly reducing the piety increment. After all Earthmother *is* a situational God (like almost every God there is), and at least late game converters/worshippers can get about a dozen shots of Entanglement which could be very very useful. Most deities don't work at endgame stage anyway.
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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby Darvin on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:07 am

The Earthmother is littered with boons of limited usefulness. If she had at least one stellar boon this woudl be another matter, but as it stands at least one of them must be replaced or reworked to expand on her usefulness. I don't think her current offering is remotely sufficient.

That's why I say combine greenblood and entanglement. You won't be able to leverage both effects easily, but I think that's fine if EM gets another high-utility boon out of the change.
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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby Gorgon on Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:37 pm

Darvin wrote:That's why I say combine greenblood and entanglement. You won't be able to leverage both effects easily, but I think that's fine if EM gets another high-utility boon out of the change.


I'm not for this idea. Corrosion is a boon that I'd like to use many times in a row, and Entanglement is a boon which I'd not like to repeat...

I'm for Ara's idea. In my opinion, EM's boons are too expensive.

On a different topic, has anyone else noticed that Mystera received an indirect nerf after the "magic monster increase"?
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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby The Avatar on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:55 pm

That's why she kept getting peeved at my gnommish assassin...

Are we all agreed that we want new dwarves back?
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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby gjaustin on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:06 pm

fall_ark wrote:
gjaustin wrote:I don't mind damage reduction showing up in some places (Earthmother and Shields). I just don't think it's nearly an interesting enough ability to be a race bonus. And if it were fixed to be interesting enough, it would almost certainly end up broken once people start taking 0 damage from bosses.


If a player takes extreme measures specifically aimed to take single digit damage from one or few bosses....what's so broken about it? It's not unlike an Elf Crystal Ball JJ to MA Wizard that fireballs his way through "taking 0 damage from bosses".


The main difference here is that the caster runs out of mana eventually, while the physical damage character can go forever.

Anyway, my main (and slightly addled by illness) point is that damage reduction isn't nearly an interesting or core enough ability to be a racial bonus. I'd say it could work as a monster class bonus though.
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Re: New Dwarves v. Old Dwarves, Paladins, and Magic Monsters

Postby Fran on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:50 am

Apart from who should gain the ability, i think we all agree that it would make it alot more useful if damage reduction was applied after resists.

Would it be possible to change this?
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