General thoughts on deities

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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby The Avatar on Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:40 am

In that case, what petion does is limit punishment to killing and revealing monsters, halving punishment chance, remove corrosion and weakening, and it's cost is reduced to 25 piety.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby gjaustin on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:19 am

My thoughts:

GG - Absolution and Humility are great. Good luck getting piety though

TT - Strong, but not useful in every situation. Perfect.

JJ - Strong and useful in every situation. Probably too good.

Mystera - Weakening is still awful, but overall useful and reasonably well balanced.

Taurog - His boons are very situational, but his high piety gain is very nice. Combines very, very well with Body Pact (my choice for top boon).

Binlor - I'm a big fan of Binlor now. Easy piety gain and a nice assortment of boons that are pretty useful. The fact that his boons stop working when you run out of walls (literally, it won't let you take them!) is annoying though.

Dracul - Strong in the right situations, weak in other. Balanced quite well.

Eartmother - Useful, but in a completely counter-intuitive way. You worship her for the free IMAWAL and petrify plants for bonus exp. Then you slow everything down for bonus popcorn experience. Then you convert out.

Pactmaker - I can't think of a case where you don't want this altar to spawn.


Overall, I'd say that Binlor, Dracul, and TT are at the right spot right now. On the plus side, they have enough varied boons that they support multiple strategies and they provide good sources of piety. On the negative side, they have some really harsh piety penalties or other drawbacks (i.e. destroying walls) that keep them from being completely obvious.

Taurog and GG are the ones that need the most work. Earthmother just needs to have Vine Form give resists so that she scales properly. JJ just needs to have Petition convert all punishments into Weakening (I'd say Corrosion but that's Earthmother's thing).

My only complaint about Pactmaker is that he rewards scumming. The fourth altar spawned by the prep should just always be him.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Darvin on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:32 am

JJ just needs to have Petition convert all punishments into Weakening (I'd say Corrosion but that's Earthmother's thing).

That'd be horrible. JJ has a lot of emphasis on maximizing health-based resources, but characters who have suffered large amounts of weakening have no use for health-based resources. This makes JJ largely pointless if you take too much weakening.

Each of JJ's punishments has the potential to be game ending if he smacks you with too much of them or if he hits you at just the right time. We have to fundamentally rework how JJ punishes people, because right now he's smacking you with some really nasty stuff and without a way to quickly shut off the pain he's simply more of a liability than a benefit.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Lujo on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:47 am

My thoughts:

EM - it may sound strange but I've never really had problems with EM. Her main problem was that the other piety farm deities had more usefull boons and almost equal piety farm potential. Since I've always used TT a lot, taking her first, racking up levels and piety and grabing cheap boons then slowing everything and converting to TT from a massive popcorn bowl bonanza always felt really good. I only stopped using her regularly when I discovered how good a piety farm the old GG was, but that turned out to be a dvelopment mistake. The strat's still great for fighters, mass slow + fighter XP bonuses + Tiki's Edge = massive level catapulting.

She could use work, but I feel like there having too many more usefull piety farms is her real problem. I've also never really tried out the corrosion+spellcaster combo enough, but that might need testing too.

Taurog - again, it's a perspective thing. He's deffinitely a good piety farm (excelent now that there are more spellcasting monsters around). The lack of +DMG items in general makes the sword a better choice for an item slot than it looks. Also, the possible string of death protections that work off piety instead of other resources is actually fundamentaly broken, and the "takes up your inventory" deal is either a harsh counterbalance to that or quite irrelevant when you consider that the "string of freebies" characters are very often conversion heavy.

I'd say his main problems are the complete prohibition of ANY glyph use. If there was an intuitive way to allow him to grant you at least BYCEPS, possibly a shrunken down variant upon joining that doesn't count as a spell, I'd say he'd be a lot more appealing. His second problem in my opinion is that the shield sticks in your inventory long after it has inevitably become somewhat useless. I'd say welding the sword and shield togather might be more appealing to me than the armor pieces. Or making his "gear" behave as physical glyphs, as in, being items that you can click on to cast predetermined spells, with carefull consideration of which glyphs exactly.

Say put BYCEPS on the shield, WONNAFYT on the sword, death protections are his final boons anyway so CYDSTEPP has been taken care of, and I'm not sure what the other ones would be...


I don't have the time to talk about the others, but those 2 seem to need work so I guess this is enough. I think the glyph-on-a-stick idea for taurog might be a good one if done right.

EDIT: thematicaly, Byceps could go on the Armour and Wonnafyt on the helm, which would leave pissorf to the shield as a shiled bash I guess though I'm loath to give dmg spells to Taurog. Still no clue as to what the sword would do then. Getindare? I'm not sure wether this would be impossible to balance but it would be hell'a fun and flavourfull :_D
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Fran on Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:00 pm

The Avatar wrote:If you got a 3 time boost on shield that's 65 DR and max both resists. Broken, but I like the concept.


The 3 effects I listed where meant to become available one after another. So first time you take the shield upgrade, you get the 25% PhysRest. Then the next time, you get 25% MagicResist. And finally, you get 20 DR.
So you'd end up with 25% botch resists and 25 DR. This is propably too weak and the order in which you get those boons makes no sense but this is where I'd like to see what others could think of to make it a viable concept.
The same about the sword, first you get burning, then weakening and last the resistdecrease.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby The Avatar on Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:23 pm

My mistake! That could work, but people would probably just grab the resists and convert out.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Lujo on Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:13 pm

Any chance I could get feedback on my Taurog idea? I can shorten the post considerably if it ment it might get some attention :(
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby fall_ark on Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:56 pm

Concur with the inventory-eater Taurog. Now that more and more awesome items appear in the game, even melee-only characters might steer clear of Taurog due to favorable item spawns.

The Avatar wrote:My mistake! That could work, but people would probably just grab the resists and convert out.


Make it worshipper only then. If you convert out you lose the additional boons. The 5 DR might stay intact.

Lujo wrote:I'd say his main problems are the complete prohibition of ANY glyph use. If there was an intuitive way to allow him to grant you at least BYCEPS, possibly a shrunken down variant upon joining that doesn't count as a spell, I'd say he'd be a lot more appealing. His second problem in my opinion is that the shield sticks in your inventory long after it has inevitably become somewhat useless. I'd say welding the sword and shield togather might be more appealing to me than the armor pieces. Or making his "gear" behave as physical glyphs, as in, being items that you can click on to cast predetermined spells, with carefull consideration of which glyphs exactly.

Say put BYCEPS on the shield, WONNAFYT on the sword, death protections are his final boons anyway so CYDSTEPP has been taken care of, and I'm not sure what the other ones would be...


Glyph-using penalty under Taurog is abysmally small. Reducing penalty on BYCEPS and WONNAFYT could work though.
Perhaps change penalty to 1/2 glyph mana use?
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby gjaustin on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:21 pm

Lujo wrote:Any chance I could get feedback on my Taurog idea? I can shorten the post considerably if it ment it might get some attention :(


On-click effects for his items is an idea that had occurred to me before, but you've clearly put more thought into it than me.

How about:

Sword = GETINDARE
Shield = PISORF (I really like this idea btw)
Armor = BYSEPPS
Helm = WEYTWUT
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Fran on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:35 pm

Lujo wrote:Any chance I could get feedback on my Taurog idea? I can shorten the post considerably if it ment it might get some attention :(


I see Taurog as the opposite of Mystera so i think its completely fine if you penalize the glyphusage. I think your concept is fun to play, but to me it feels like it has a greater focus on hybrid characters than on pure fighters (themetically speaking, not necessary gameplay-wise).
It better fits my concept of Taurog to have enhanced gear that grants passive bonuses instead of gear that lets you enhance yourself actively. But this is more about the way how one perceives the theme of taurog; I see him as a diety that wants you to beat the crap out of your enemies without having to use a single spell.
I could however, imagine him to give you those enhancing himselfs.
Instead of Biceps, something like a boon that gives you a weak version of 'Momentum' for example:
Gain 25% attackbonus after killing an enemy, but capped at 25% (the crusader would have his cap enlarged to 125%).
You get similiar effects, but you don't use mana so it fits the theme.
As said before, I'd propose the sword and shield to be basic items and then having two boons that enhance them with various effects where the shield enhances defence and the sword enhances attack. Consider them as "enhancing levels" of the sword and shield. So basic shield and sword would be lvl1 gear. You can take the boons to increase their level, thus gaining additional effects. When you convert out, both items lose 1 lvl so you can't just grab the defence boost and convert out without penalty.
The deathprotection would still be the last boon that you can simply grab without too much involvement besides picking up the sword and the shield, so there is something in for every class.

Having glyph effects on the equipment is a concept i thought about as well at some time, but i don't really like it themetically. In the end, effectively it would be glyphs which also add stats to your character so in a sense they are better than the glyphs that are already there AND it is guaranted that you get them in the run. That is pretty much how I'd imagine some kind of magic diety to be: granting spells. So this is definitively something I'd not want for taurog.

Also, compare it to the other dieties: Most of them grant you abilities you're not able to get otherwise as a passive effect (poison, lifesteal, level in/decrease, corrosion, DR, resists, knockback, stoneskin, changes in glypheffects).
In fact, besides of healing dieties only grant you passive effects, the only exception being the glyphs you get to farm piety on start. Why should especially the diety of nonmagic users be the one that grants you active abilities? I think that is quite a contradiction.
Last edited by Fran on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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