General thoughts on deities

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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby gjaustin on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:45 pm

Or maybe he should just have a boon that's the opposite of BLUDPOWA. You don't regen mana as you explore, but you regen double health.

That's really the problem he has right now. Between the item slots being used up, the reduced MP, and the penalty for using MP, he isn't resource efficient.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Lujo on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:55 pm

Thanks for the feedbac guys, as you see I'm sort of exploring this concet of "fun" everybody's talking about :D

And special thanks to Fran - your analysis is exactly why I've said it might be a bit strange (getting glyphs from a hy god? wtf?) and hard to balance (glyphs with additional bonuses? wtf?).

On the other hand, consider I limited the selection to sub-optimal conversion fodder glyphs (except pissorf, but even pissorf's conversion fodder for many classes). I also shied away wrom "power" and 3rd tier glyphs. But the idea that item boons turned into one shot bonuses once you have the correct piece of equipment is sort of the same thing - you could simly stick those abilities on items and make them cost piety instead of mana. Still would be a bit hybridy, but with proper activated abilities, it might make thematic sense :)
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Darvin on Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:22 pm

I'd prefer Taurog to offer something unique rather than replicating existing effects you can get elsewhere. Particularly now that he's just slapping you on the wrist with a -2 for infractions and he's the most well-rounded piety farm, anyone who is casting spells infrequently should do just fine with Taurog.

The biggest problem I have with the current Taurog is that the only thing cool and unique about him is the ability to chain death protections in the end-game, which as Lujo points out is actually broken and only kept in line by an absurd opportunity cost to access it.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby The Avatar on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:33 pm

I liked your old suggestion awhile back. Had a 90 piety "Armory" boon providing all the equipment. You also buffed them and gave them a double edge. Then you added some boons like slowing strike and might effect at full mana.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Darvin on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:50 pm

I'd still prefer to see something like that rather than what we have now. I don't know what the devs want to do with him; his current design has glaring issues and simply reducing his mana penalty isn't nearly enough.

Ah, here's the post.... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=983
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Fran on Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:19 am

Darvin wrote:I'd still prefer to see something like that rather than what we have now. I don't know what the devs want to do with him; his current design has glaring issues and simply reducing his mana penalty isn't nearly enough.

Ah, here's the post.... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=983


Whoa, thats a really nice concept - haven't seen this until now as this was way before I signed up here.
Although it'd had to be adjusted to the way the game is now. I'll try a variant to combine some things mentioned by now:

Purge Weakness:
Sacrifice 2 max mana to gain 20 piety, cannot reduce mana below 0.

Taurog's Armory (60 piety):
Grants you Skullpicker, Wereward and Taurog's Totem:
Skullpicker: +1 base damage per LVL
Wereward: 2 DR per LVL
Converting Skullpicker or Wereward destroys the other as well.
Taurog's Totem:
1-time usable at full mana. Grants Deathprotection and Manaburns you. Conversion gives you 20 Piety. Can't use when max Mp is 0.

Taurog's Smithery (100 Piety)
Enhances Skullpicker and Wereward (only works when both items are in your inventory):
Skullpicker: Weakening on strike and bypasses 25% Physical Resistance. Sacrifice 1 max mana to get BICEPS effect.
Wereward: Immune to weakening and Corrosion, 1 additional DR per LVL. Sacrife 1 max mana to cast PISORF.
Can't reduce MP below 0.

Unstoppable Fury (35 piety +15 per use):
Reloads Taurog's Totem so you may use it again.

Crippling Onslaught (40 piety): As long as you have full mana, you have the slow effect on attack. If your max MP is 0, this counts as having full mana.

All boons are simple to understand. You're welcome to balance the draft!
Last edited by Fran on Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby The Avatar on Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:32 am

I really like it. It combines everything so far, although I dunno if I'd use the BICEPS or PISORF except for the boss fight.

Taurog's Totem would be an item like Namtar's ward, I assume. It's either charged or not, but it never goes away. My three tweaks are make it so that you can use the totem when you're not mana burned, cause otherwise using a Schadenfreude potion before each death protection hit would automatically let you do the next one. I think you should change the shield to 2 DR per level, and then 10% to both resists for level 2. And I think your Brutal Onslaught should also give you a +50% momentum cap.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Fran on Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:24 pm

The Avatar wrote:I really like it. It combines everything so far, although I dunno if I'd use the BICEPS or PISORF except for the boss fight.

Taurog's Totem would be an item like Namtar's ward, I assume. It's either charged or not, but it never goes away. My three tweaks are make it so that you can use the totem when you're not mana burned, cause otherwise using a Schadenfreude potion before each death protection hit would automatically let you do the next one. I think you should change the shield to 2 DR per level, and then 10% to both resists for level 2. And I think your Brutal Onslaught should also give you a +50% momentum cap.


Thanks for the input! All three improvements sound good to me.
I'd like to know what lujo and darwin think about this as I took some ideas from them.
Of course, everyone else is also encouraged to give his/her opinion as well ;)
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby The Avatar on Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:39 pm

Always my pleasure to help!

But what can we do about the PISORF/BICEPS thing? And, before I forget, how does your weakening strike work? -1 enemy damage (per level?) I think resist reduction 5% would be better than weakening strike.
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Re: General thoughts on deities

Postby Lujo on Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:53 pm

While I like the compromise between the whole bunch of approaches to buffing Taurog, there's one problem with it.

It's not ellegant.

Taurog, as he is now, is a very straightworward, sleek deity, that a noob can easily understand. You take boons, get MP penalties, gain an item per boon, and in the end you're unkillable.

Vets will soon figure out that their inventory space is rarely worth any single piece of Taurog's equipment, and some other vets will figure out that in some cases the free string f death protections you can squeeze out of it all is all sorts of worth it.

He's not the most cost-effective god unless you go all in with a physical class, but he's by far the best designed god, and always was, simple as hell and noob friendly, but as far as design goes - a masterpiece.

I'm not sure he needs a rework that makes him complicated (not that we haven't done more complicated things about 10 times per run, but hey). Somehow, I kind of feel that just giving him a way to acess BYCEPS would give melle classes acess to a way to deal with phy's protection and also give them use of one glyph that screams "use me on a phys guy!", but is unusable to him because it's a repeateble glyph.

I think he's a great god as he is, don't get me wrong - he's actually so powerfull as to make the old warmonger wizard Berserker Camp run doable, back when it was undoable (just... think about it). And the only real problem is that his worshipers have no way to go all in with "phys damge + convert everything + get them freebies in" lifestyle.

Sorry to rain on your parade guys, I wouldn't mind having Frans Taurog in the game (tweaked ofc), but I sort of feel we got a little carried away. Taurog doesn't really need buffs all that much, and I'm not sure if we could talk the devs into a rework of him that would make him more "advanced user friendly". But we might squeeze a Taurog friendly byceps, and maybe a few other flavourfull but not gamebreaking glyphs on the lackluster equipment pieces. He doesn't even penalize spellcasting all that much to begin with...
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