Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

All things Desktop Dungeons

What's Your Favorite Vicious Dungeon?

Demonic Library
5
26%
Namtar's Lair
5
26%
Dragon Isles
1
5%
Naga City
6
32%
Vicious Halls of Steel
1
5%
Vicious Gaan-Telet
1
5%
 
Total votes : 19

Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Bloggorus on Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:45 am

Avatar broke the game; what a great beta tester!

Lujo, if you missed out on the multiple cues about level catapulting during the tutorial and first quests, i think you are assuming your experience was the same as everyone else's. There's even a badge for catapulting at the start of the game, and one for reaching level 10. One leads to the other, and I see no reason why a new player would not develop naturally towards the conservation of resources required by Vicious.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Lujo on Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:10 am

-.- (shakes head in disbilef)

I don't mind level catapulting as such. Jesus. But if I can get from level say 1 to level say any by using just a few monsters then there's an issue there. Either that or too many monster level tiers. If you don't really need more than 5-7 gorgons or goats in any given level to complete it, and it's the most optimal strat, WHY ARE THERE OTHER MONSTERS THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

The way it is/was if you never ever put a monster besides a goat or gorgon in a dungeon, and reduce the number of monsters in a dungeon to whatever number of goats and gorgons you need (which is very little), everyone would be PRO in a matter of an afternoon! Why is this so hard to grasp?

The devs pretty much said so in the into to todays patch: people are spending way to much early game on exploration rather than playing the game intuitively - this means they go look for the few things that are needed in a level, and those are often really a few, and then stomp on everything. I do this every time, enter a dungeon, if its vicious look for the only monster I can kill, if its not look for the only type of monster I HAVE TO kill...

I really don't think I have to argue any of this further. Really.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Joist on Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:27 am

Here you go Lujo.

Image

prep JJ + strength, no scumming.

Not sure on which side of this issue I stand though.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Darvin on Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:46 am

The one-shot-wonder Crusader is such a unique character build. I love it ^_^

That said, you'd be much better off with Orc than Human, since Crusader's attack bonus is already through the roof.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Joist on Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:59 am

Are you sure about that? This build doesn't go hard on conversions, you'll get maybe 500-600 points.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Bloggorus on Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:34 am

Lujo wrote:-.- (shakes head in disbilef)

I don't mind level catapulting as such. Jesus. But if I can get from level say 1 to level say any by using just a few monsters then there's an issue there. Either that or too many monster level tiers. If you don't really need more than 5-7 gorgons or goats in any given level to complete it, and it's the most optimal strat, WHY ARE THERE OTHER MONSTERS THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

The way it is/was if you never ever put a monster besides a goat or gorgon in a dungeon, and reduce the number of monsters in a dungeon to whatever number of goats and gorgons you need (which is very little), everyone would be PRO in a matter of an afternoon! Why is this so hard to grasp?

The devs pretty much said so in the into to todays patch: people are spending way to much early game on exploration rather than playing the game intuitively - this means they go look for the few things that are needed in a level, and those are often really a few, and then stomp on everything. I do this every time, enter a dungeon, if its vicious look for the only monster I can kill, if its not look for the only type of monster I HAVE TO kill...

I really don't think I have to argue any of this further. Really.


Sorry, i was just trying to say that a large majority of the game coaxes you towards preserving resources and taking advantage of level jumps. What we are seeing advanced players do is an extremely refined version of that

The fact that this is only possible in Vicious dungeons by exploiting the weakness of a few monsters, glyphs or gods is idicative of the design of the dungeon, not an issue with the entire game structure.

The devs cater to the 'elitist' crowd to avoid the disappointment of breaking the game for noobs. If a new player DID, heaven forbid, stumble on one of the few game breaking strategies, they would have right to complain.

Thank god the game is still in beta, and us guinea pigs are still on our wheel, and the devs can turf all the imbalances before someone's game is ruined before it starts.

I agree with you for the most part, but we can't assume the developers aren't aware that they are catering to a playing base which is vastly more knowledgeable than the regular player.

We can only assume that any imbalances found, such as that insane crusader thing above, will be rectified before launch.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Gorgon on Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:47 pm

Lujo wrote:The way it is/was if you never ever put a monster besides a goat or gorgon in a dungeon, and reduce the number of monsters in a dungeon to whatever number of goats and gorgons you need (which is very little), everyone would be PRO in a matter of an afternoon! Why is this so hard to grasp?


I agree. I think debuffing monsters should be made less absurd. Monsters that permanently lower 15% of your resistances every time they touch you are completely untouchable. I think burn salves and fortitude tonics should remove more levels of corrosion/weakening, maybe 5 or so. In their current incarnation, I can only receive 3 hits from an enemy before drinking a potion. If I receive more, I'll get an annoying permanent debuff.

The fact that this is only possible in Vicious dungeons by exploiting the weakness of a few monsters, glyphs or gods is idicative of the design of the dungeon, not an issue with the entire game structure.


This is true. There's a strategy for every kind of dungeon, and the debuffing monsters are there to annoy you, but I think I should be able to hit them, at least. Not being able to hit a monster is the same as having a wall in its place.

And I'm not trying to start an argument here, just saying what I think...
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Darvin on Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:36 pm

Joist wrote:Are you sure about that? This build doesn't go hard on conversions, you'll get maybe 500-600 points.

Let's take 600, since that's 5 conversion for the Orc and 6 conversions for the human.

Attack bonus: 100% + 50% from boosters + 100% from momentum = 250%
Base Attack (level 1): 5 + 48 from strength = 53

Human gets an extra 60% attack bonus, Orc gets an extra 15 base attack

3.1*53 = 164
2.5*68 = 170

And that is with a ridiculous boost from strength potions. Before and after you use them, the Orc drastically overshadows the human. If the human can't beat out the orc with his base attack boosted through the roof, then he's just non-viable period. Similarly, if you add an Avatar's Symbol or Sensation stone on top of this the Orc becomes positively monstrous.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Joist on Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:44 pm

Very neat.

I still think that, in this particular situation, the human beats out the orc. I was prepping JJ to hit 22 mana and bringing the tri-sword which ended up at +18. Also I didn't use all 4 strength potions at once, just 3.

Human: (2.5 + 0.6) * (5 + 22 * 3 + 18) = 275
Orc: (2.5) * (5 + 22 * 3 + 18 + 15) = 260
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Darvin on Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:23 pm

So for all that effort to boost your base attack to ridiculous levels, and the human still just barely exceeds the Orc. My point still stands in a realistic sense: there's no reason to pick human over orc. Once your strength potions are exhausted, the Orc will be significantly stronger on subsequent (and preceding) attacks, and the actual advantage of the human on your one-hit-wonder is actually not very large despite all the optimization.

Of course, this does raise an interesting point with the current bugged strength potion. It seems that humans may just have the upper hand over Orcs on this one.
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