mechanics questions and advice requests

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mechanics questions and advice requests

Postby franz on Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:03 pm

Hello everyone!
I have three questions that I hope some veteran could answer:

First of all, how exactly does burning work?
Second, has anyone done the math on humans and orcs attack bonus, to see when one is more beneficial than the other? My guess is to pick orc when planning to convert a lot of stuff and go for a somewhat straightforward melee build, human when playing hybrid with more glyphs and equip, but I'm too dumb to figure out the exact numbers.
Third and last: are there items that can only be found in quests or the like and not in shops, items that must be lockered or be lost forever? In general I'd like to know what items are in expert players' lockers and why.

Thanks in advance for any response!
PS: deep respect to the developers of such a wonderful hard casual game!
Last edited by franz on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: some beginner questions (items, orcs vs humans and burni

Postby gjaustin on Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:05 pm

franz wrote:Hello everyone!
I have three questions that I hope some veteran could answer:

First of all, how exactly does burning work?
Second, has anyone done the math on humans and orcs attack bonus, to see when one is more beneficial than the other? My guess is to pick orc when planning to convert a lot of stuff and go for a somewhat straightforward melee build, human when playing hybrid with more glyphs and equip, but I'm too dumb to figure out the exact numbers.
Third and last: are there items that can only be found in quests or the like and not in shops, items that must be lockered or be lost forever? In general I'd like to know what items are in expert players' lockers and why.

Thanks in advance for any response!
PS: deep respect to the developers of such a wonderful hard casual game!


1) Burning stacks every time you hit an enemy with Fireball or Whurgarrbl. Each point of burning makes those attacks do 1 more magic damage. If you ever hit that enemy with a non-burning attack or hit another enemy, the burning will "ignite" and deal 1 damage per point of burning to the enemy. The max stack of burning is twice the enemy's level.

2)Orc is better at early levels and for Monks/Rogues
Human is better at higher levels and for Wizards/Sorcerers

3) There's no item that can be lost forever. However, there are three dungeon rewards (Dragon Shield, Namtar's Ward, Avatar Symbol) that never appear in shops. There's also the Sensation Stone from Havendale Bridge that you can lock if you pick it up and leave the dungeon without converting it.

My locker:
Dragon Shield (My default prep)
Tri-Sword (For Halflings and sometimes Gnomes)
Crystal Ball (For Casters)
Sensation Stone (For Orcs and Half-Dragons)
Vampiric Blade (For Vampires and sometimes for Monks)
Whurgarbl (For Sorcerers, Human Wizards, and sometimes Gorgons)
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Re: some beginner questions (items, orcs vs humans and burni

Postby franz on Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:35 pm

Thank you, you solved almost all my doubts :)
I still would like to see numbers on human vs orc but I think I can settle with the info you provided. Thanks again and good luck on your dungeon explorations!
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Re: some beginner questions (items, orcs vs humans and burni

Postby gjaustin on Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:54 pm

I think one of the other posters did the math once. The problem is that due to the way the Orc's bonus stacks, it's very dependent on how many conversion points you end up with.

I generally stick with the Orc myself, with Wizards and Sorcerers being my two exceptions. For both of those classes, I make sure to take the prep that replaces two attack bonuses with two mana bonuses. This lets the Wizard both eliminate his penalty and get to 15 mana (6 mana per potion), while it lets the Sorcerer get to 20 mana (8 per potion) and still get have a strong melee attack.
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Re: some beginner questions (items, orcs vs humans and burni

Postby Kuranes on Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:23 pm

franz wrote:Thank you, you solved almost all my doubts :)
I still would like to see numbers on human vs orc but I think I can settle with the info you provided. Thanks again and good luck on your dungeon explorations!


I haven't done the math either, admittidly. But as far as I understood Orcs are great earl game and humans are great in the long run.

Meaning orcs contribute most damage early one while humans contribute alot once you're high level.
"Which farm animal is featured prominently in Desktop Dungeons?" "Snakes"
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Re: some beginner questions (items, orcs vs humans and burni

Postby franz on Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:28 pm

Yes I read that post but I believe it was from a previous version, I think the orc conversion was a flat +2 attack bonus (that looks a bit underpowered to me).
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Re: some beginner questions (items, orcs vs humans and burni

Postby Darvin on Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:37 pm

If you're going to take attack->MP, then human vastly outperforms Orc in every respect except PISORF antics.

Seriously, even presuming a 720 conversion point character (rather high-end for a caster) the Orc has a 21 point increase to base attack with a 110% attack bonus. A similar 700 conversion point human has a 180% attack bonus. The human overtakes the Orc at level 6. Since level 6 is reached before exploration is completed, it's unlikely the Orc has maxed out his conversion meter yet, so the human starts outperforming orc even earlier than this. So the real turning point is probably more around level 3 or 4. That's way too early for Orc to be a viable choice.

Alternately, with HP->Attack matters are much more favourable for the orc. Those same 720 conversion point characters now have 150% and 220% attack bonus respectively. Now the Orc isn't matched by the human until level 9, and isn't overtaken until level 10.


Meaning orcs contribute most damage early one while humans contribute alot once you're high level.

Yes; you can spreadsheet the damage by level and by conversion threshold. For low conversion values or high-level characters, the human outperforms the orc. For high-conversion values or low-level characters, the orc outperforms the human. If you're not being aggressive about conversion (and that means devoting a significant amount of your preparations to boosting your ability to convert stuff) then Orcs are going to fall behind humans drastically. For this reason, I find orcs largely useless in purist runs outside of Rogues, Berserkers, Crusaders, and Monks.
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Re: some beginner questions (items, orcs vs humans and burni

Postby Mister Bile on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:12 am

A question in a similar vein: Does anyone actually prep specific gods for a dungeon? So far, I've only occasionally prepped Turaog and/or the random extra altar. Everyone else's penalty seems too severe, and I have to pay 50 gold for the "honor" to boot.
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Re: some beginner questions (items, orcs vs humans and burni

Postby Halion on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:36 am

While some of the penalties are harsh, specific strategies can make use of them quite well. Eventually that gold cost stops being an issue.

God preps are definitely amongst your more advanced preps though, it can take a lot of play to evaluate each god well.

Exactly how crippling each of the prep drawbacks are has been a somewhat contentious issue. Some veteran players find certain drawbacks intolerable, others are unconcerned.
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Re: some beginner questions (items, orcs vs humans and burni

Postby Darvin on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:56 am

Jehora Jeheyu is an awesome god, but giving up a precious inventory slot... ewww....
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