Exclusive Subletting

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Re: Exclusive Subletting

Postby franz on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:44 am

Lujo wrote:avoid "ITS SINGLEPLAYER!" trolling


I've said "it's singleplayer" some time ago and I stand by what I said, what I mean is that because of some game mechanics (in that post we were talking about burning, corrosion and strength potions effect being constant at all levels) there will always be some way to exploit the system and perform crazy stuff like killing a boss at level 1. As long as doing so requires careful planning and precise execution I feel that there is no harm. Finding powerful combos can even add value to the game for some players, some veteran appears to be doing this already rather than "simply" clearing dungeon after dungeon in a more traditional way.
Obviously broken stuff, like crusader's momentum going over 100% or str pots effect not resetting, has to be fixed, but I think it's impossible to ask for a perfectly balanced DD, with every class having the same chance of clearing any dungeon regardless of items/glyphs/gods/dungeon layout/so on, without a major rewriting of some core mechanic.
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Re: Exclusive Subletting

Postby The Avatar on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:53 am

I fundamentally disagree with you. All they did is make burning not equivalent, but scaling, and it crushed all those problems. Finding powerful combos is not fun, especially if it is an accident and you're a new player. It removes any vague amount of challenge from normal and hard dungeons, the beef of the game. While a 100% balanced DD is not possible, as certain dungeons will always promote certain strats (i.e. Dragon Isles Berserker), you should be able to make all class, and to a certain extent strats, balanced. What I mean, is all classes should be roughly equal in a dungeon with "blank" monsters (Like Horratio, Zombies, and Wizards). Half physical and half magical distribution in all the levels, basically the ultimate anything works dungeon. If all classes are balanced on that "plain" dungeon it's balanced.
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Re: Exclusive Subletting

Postby franz on Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:54 am

But I agree with that, "blank" dungeons should present the same challenge to every class, but perfect balance is not possible every time, thus the existence of good or bad combos.
Combos that remove challenge should fall into the "broken, should be fixed", combos that work better than average but still don't guarantee success are what I feel could be allowed since DD is "single player, no need to balance". In the end it's all a matter of what the devs want the player to be able to do, the more challenging they want the game to be, the narrower the range of allowed combos. Changing fireball is like stating "we don't want you to be able to kill a boss as a level 1 character", and it's a welcome change. Even the tweaks to monster's health and xp curve encourage a more traditional play over inticate exploits, and again I think it's for the best.
English is not my first language and maybe I can't make my point clear enough, I apologize for that. Perhaps we're just disagreeing on the definition of "strong combo" :) Anyway I think I've gone off-topic enough, I just wanted to respond to the - surely indirect - accusation of trolling while I'm just expressing my point of view.
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Re: Exclusive Subletting

Postby The Avatar on Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:21 pm

Your English is perfectly fine. Now that you stated you point that way, I agree. Combos that work better than average but still don't guarantee success. That's what it should have.
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Re: Exclusive Subletting

Postby Lujo on Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:34 pm

What I ment by trolling is that "it's singleplayer" is not the answer to the questions we are asking. What avatar said basicaly is the background of the philosophy that leads to the question. I'm not even sure what would "perfect balance" be, but some sort of sense and sense of progression, or a logic behind a learning curve (or point of having one) would be it.

In other words, you can't have, or rather I feel you shouldn't have, people getting better at the game by "forgetting" learned lessons - I don't mind giving up some sort of newbie crutch, or outgrowing say "whoopaz" or a reliance on items, but outgrowing fighting monsters is a... well... a balance paradox. The balance is a balance between various levels of difficulty, and skill required to overcome them.

As long as there is a baseline for HP and damage gain per lvl up, as long as there is a baseline for monster stats, shop availability, powerup distribution, there will be a balance - some challenges will be easy, some medium, some hard. Getting to know this, getting the feel of it lets you decide how much resource expediture is optimal or even required for overcoming certain challenges.

But if it turns out that the proper way to play is to expend no resources at all, in a way that can be replicated almost anywhere - then there is really no balance, and since the balance (enviroment vs player) determines the difficulty of dungeons outside "trick dungeons", finding out that there is no balance (in favour of the player) kills a lot of the sense of acomplishment. In other words - you get the tools needed to make a laughting stock of the game from the get go, and most of the content is a red herring to prevent you from realizing this too fast.

That is, unless we, the testers, make sure the game IS balanced before it's done. And the dev's talk to us and respond and stuff. And crying "it's singleplayer" in this case would lead the discussion, if this even merits one, in the wrong direction.
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