Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

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Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby The Avatar on Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:59 am

We've been discussing the EXP, fighting strats, and monster problems on the Exclusive Subletting forum, and we've reached an agreement that the only way to stop people from abusing extreme catapults, because the devs don't want the game to work like that, is to make it so monsters are roughly the same level of difficulty and get rid of broken strats. Here's my list of nerfs and buffs:

Buffs:
Bandits: Give them mana burn or poison too so they pose more of an annoyance to non-resist strats and more hp (90%?)
Goats, Wraiths, Imps, Shades, Gorgons--More hp (90%?)
(Wow, looks like the real problem monsters all have awful hp.)

Nerfs:
AA's: Make their damage normal
Doom Armors: Replace them with AA's
Thralls: Lower their hp to a reasonable level (100%?)
Djinns: Give them less then normal hp, not more than normal (90%?)
Zombies: Nerf their hp to only slightly more than normal monsters (125%?)

All Corrosion, Weakening, and Reduce Resist Monsters: Permanant Debuffs are too unfair. I think removing 2 or so corrosion and weakening upon leveling, not to mention 15% resists back, upon leveling up. Otherwise the monsters will be untouchable. The numbers might need adjustment, but you get the concept.

Please, add your own and comment on mine, because I know I missed some.
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Re: Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby Darvin on Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:43 am

The issue with resist-down is that it's downright terrifying to some characters but harmless to others. It's very hard to actually balance a monster around that. If it's dungeon specific, where we know the dungeon favours high-resist characters, then it can make a lot of sense. If it's just a general-purpose monster like the bandit that represents a serious issue. Until we get consensus on that issue, I don't think we can talk about Bandits, Naga, or any of the other dungeon-specific debuffers.


Goats and Gorgons definitely need buffs. I'm not too concerned about Wraiths or Imps. You need luck to knock out an imp before exploration is complete, and Wraiths aren't really any weaker to spellcasting than golems are to melee attacks. Shades are dungeon-specific monsters and are only found in two dungeons (one of which requires a special event to occur before they appear) so I'm more inclined to view them as dungeon fixtures like illusions.

Animated Armors could probably stand to have less than 100% attack damage, but have their hit points brought up a bit. This would encourage a hybrid approach to take them out, with physical attacks to knock out their HP and magic attacks to knock out death protection.

I don't think Djinns need a nerf. Zombies are arguable; they're stronger than your average monster, but I feel they're within an acceptable variance.
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Re: Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby franz on Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:16 am

The Avatar wrote:All Corrosion, Weakening, and Reduce Resist Monsters: Permanant Debuffs are too unfair. I think removing 2 or so corrosion and weakening upon leveling, not to mention 15% resists back, upon leveling up. Otherwise the monsters will be untouchable. The numbers might need adjustment, but you get the concept.


Darvin wrote:The issue with resist-down is that it's downright terrifying to some characters but harmless to others.


They could give some classes like monks and paladins a feature to recover lost resistance, over time by exploring, by leveling or by drinking a potion. Resist from gods or equipment could still be forever lost.

What about tweaking the XP value of monsters? Make a goat XP value say 80%, nagas 120%. That way a high level goat would still be a nice find but there would be less incentive to explore 3/4 of a level to fight it, on the other hand when the only killable monster is a perma-debuff one there would be at least some form of compensation. Maybe this could affect only bonus XP, it could go in the direction of promoting same level fights.
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Re: Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby Bloggorus on Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:22 am

Removing permanent stat losses sounds like the best way of going about things.

I imagine that bringing stats of monsters down and giving them interesting debuffs instead would be a good way of bringing the difficulty up without forcing broken stats only.

At the moment hard and vicious mean vastly higher monster stats AND crazy debuffs.

If it was just debuffs with regular stats, we wouldn't need to focus on taking down only high level monsters to finish a level.

Not every class has the staying power to outlast high hp monsters, but every class can choose a debuff that effects them the least.

edit: the point being, the devs need to have players always being forced to choose between debuffs, at least in hard and vicious.

I feel that is a form of difficulty that requires strategic thought on the fly, based on randomly generated monsters.

It would also put a spanner in the works of all those player that know the dungeons so well by now thay can plan complex strategies in advance (which is something i don't have the knowledge or patience for)
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Re: Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby Fran on Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:50 am

I think it would be reasonable to change corrosion and weakening this way:
You get 2 points of corrosion/weakening when you hit a monster that has the debuff, but you lose 1 point every time you attack any monster.
You still add up 1 point of the effect while fighting against the same monster with the effect (as the way it is now), but by fighting against monsters with different status alignments afterwards you can get your stats back to normal.
This would also give an incentive to fight the monsters without debuffs after the ones with debuffs, as they help you to recover and gives popcorn a new purpose.
Last edited by Fran on Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby Joist on Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:02 am

That'd be neat but I don't think you should be able to shed the debuffs by killing popcorn. Make it like body pact, when you get hit they decrease. It forces the debuffs to have an affect on you.
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Re: Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby Fran on Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:21 am

That may be even better as it requires a more tactical approach, yes.
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Re: Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby The Avatar on Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:43 pm

That's a cool idea! With my suggestion weakeners and corridors would still be untouchable at lower levels.
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Re: Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby Kevin on Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:09 pm

"We’re growing concerned about the trend towards over-exploration in the early game vs actual monster killing"- Exclusive Sub-letting

I think any mobs which blink absolutely encourage over-exploration in the early game vs. actual monster killing. The strategy most often used for killing blinking monsters before most, if not all, exploration is done, revolves around being able to kill the mob in one shot which nullifies the effect anyway.

Keep the blink effect at least for bosses though, it's a nice effect for them that still requires some strategy to deal with. As it is now, all blinking mobs force over-exploration in the early game until they can be one-shotted.
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Re: Buffs and Nerfs to Monsters

Postby Darvin on Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:23 pm

The suggestion to let weakening and corrosion expire is interesting, but it'll need work. One of the huge issues will be Jehora Jeheyu. I'd imagine any character who is immune to mana burn could safely play JJ without purchasing petition... speaking of which, something really has to be done about the soul orb. Immunity to mana burn is just way too good an effect for a single item, since mana burn is a two-in-one effect to begin with.
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