Fewer "no exploration" subdungeons

[Darvin]

Making the entry to sub-dungeons explored in all cases hasn't solved the problem, though it has solved the problem of people not entering the subdungeons until late. Most of the small subdungeons have gotten considerably weaker as a result of this, while some of the bigger ones like zombie money have been unaffected.

A few subdungeons are definitely strong enough to merit being no-explore, the most significant being the blood fountain.

[The Avatar]

Agreed.

The biggest offender is Yin Yang, which is almost always useless and provides no exploration.

[Darvin]

And even if you can beat Ying/Yang the reward is often not even worth the effort. I pretty much only do Ying/Yang as Assassin, Rogue, and Vampire.

Hitball is pretty bad if you find it late. It's easy early on, but as a high-level character with little exploration space it's a significant challenge and you have to expend a lot of valuable tiles doing it.

[The Avatar]

Actually, it's hard at level 1 too. One of the enemies has 19 hp, and without DR he's EXTREMLY difficult.

[Darvin]

The third guy is hard at level 1, the first two are pretty easy. You need some sort of boost to beat him. A rogue that finds a +health item can do it blindfolded.

[The Avatar]

Or a Vamp, that actually gets healing!

[Darvin]

The final hitball guy is high-health low-damage; any DR-based character will whomp him.

[Sidestepper]

I'd like to give this another kick. I think that this is one of the last rough parts of the game. Some thoughts on specific subdungeons:

Bloodfountain: If we're going to have no-explore dungeons, this is the way to do it. Early discoverers can take the blood hunger power and gain an exploration-like resource, late finders can take the one-off recovery instead.

Yellow Potion Dungeons: Ugh. The fully explored dungeon containing a potion that lets you swap 1 MP for 10 HP, an effect that is usually worse than nothing. This is strictly a worse find than Mothers For Safer Dungeons. I think it either needs to be shrouded or eliminated entirely.

Pusher troll: Effectively a zero exploration dungeon because pushing the troll back costs you more than you get back. A heartbreaking find when you're on your last legs and need a few tiles of recovery. Expanding the entry chamber would round this one out nicely.

Grove of Knowledge: It's great if you have the money AND find it right away, but that's too many conditions for my taste. I think that a good solution would be to add another dialogue option where you tell the druid that you prefer ignorance. He leaves, shrouding a portion of the subdungeon on his way out.

Vegetarian Vampire: Could use a bit of shrouded area in the foyer.

Contemplation: Offers lots of exploration, but only if you can afford the monk's rather large fee. Just a hair too conditional. Like the with the Grove of knowledge, I'd like there to be an opt-out choice that grants you a small portion of shrouded area for those that can't/won't pay the fee.

[The Avatar]

Yes, yes, yes! I totally agree with you. The potion and troll are both heart-breaking and game ending.

[Darvin]

Bloodfountain: If we're going to have no-explore dungeons, this is the way to do it. Early discoverers can take the blood hunger power and gain an exploration-like resource, late finders can take the one-off recovery instead.

Agreed, though even it has lost its luster since the sanguine nerf. Still a good subdungeon though.

Yellow Potion Dungeons: Ugh. The fully explored dungeon containing a potion that lets you swap 1 MP for 10 HP, an effect that is usually worse than nothing. This is strictly a worse find than Mothers For Safer Dungeons. I think it either needs to be shrouded or eliminated entirely.

I vote for total elimination. This trade is virtually never worthwhile, and having an entire subdungeon devoted to this one item is absolutely criminal.

Pusher troll: Effectively a zero exploration dungeon because pushing the troll back costs you more than you get back. A heartbreaking find when you're on your last legs and need a few tiles of recovery. Expanding the entry chamber would round this one out nicely.

I definitely agree with this, especially now that there's a subdungeon that literally gives you a free PISORF glyph. Expanding the explorable area so it's still a net win in terms of resources would be a good idea.

Grove of Knowledge: It's great if you have the money AND find it right away, but that's too many conditions for my taste. I think that a good solution would be to add another dialogue option where you tell the druid that you prefer ignorance. He leaves, shrouding a portion of the subdungeon on his way out.

I like this suggestion a lot.

Contemplation: Offers lots of exploration, but only if you can afford the monk's rather large fee. Just a hair too conditional. Like the with the Grove of knowledge, I'd like there to be an opt-out choice that grants you a small portion of shrouded area for those that can't/won't pay the fee.

Well, if you find LEMMISI or BLUDTUPOWA on the topside then you can still use it down here. There's about a 2/3 chance that one of these glyphs will appear topside, so the odds aren't that bad.

Still, an option for the dirt poor player would be nice.