The Glowing Guadian

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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby Gorgon on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:28 pm

Well, I actually like the way the devs made GG. I just think there are very few ways to get piety, so if he gets more reliable ways to get piety and some cost rebalancing for his boons, it would be perfect (in my opinion).
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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby Darvin on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:45 pm

I disagree; using humility and absolution guarantees you will take massive piety losses with GG, so they will need to fundamentally overhaul either his piety gain mechanism or his boon effects. There's no either-or, right now his boons force you to attack higher-level monsters and his piety structure forbids it. This means the only sensible way to use him is to get your boons and convert out immediately; sticking with him is foolish.

I'd also add that his old hatred of killing low-level monsters was much more interesting and gave him deeper personality. Now he's a deity who hates bravery and courage and wants you to smack down weaklings; he's just a miserly Tikki Tooki.
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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby The Avatar on Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:45 am

With a glowing beard. I think Darvin's piety system is better. Sure it might need a few tweaks, but it looks better in the long run.
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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby Sidestepper on Tue May 15, 2012 2:48 pm

I thought I'd give this a kick, since I haven't really played much since the GG change and a restoration of the old GG is one of my most desired changes.

I've played around with the new GG, and he kind of works, but in a really weird way. You basically just ignore his strictures against fighting higher level foes and go for the biggest catapults that you can find. This minimizes the amount of piety you lose per level. He seems to want you to only fight weaklings, but there is no boon in the game that is strong enough to compensate for the massive loss of xp that would entail.

I also really, really hate the new theme for GG, and really miss the old "heroic redemption" theme. It was fun. It was a type of heroism that you don't normally see in fantasy games. GG didn't want you to fight unless you couldn't help it, cared about the lives of even the evil monsters, and wanted you to solve conflicts on your own resources. The new GG is a self-righteous coward, basically a Tikki Tokki without the humor and charm.

I don't think swapping GG's piety structure but leaving his boons alone really worked. The tension between Humility/Absolution and his strictures doesn't make any sense. Those boons used to play into his themes very well, but now it feels way off, like Taurog suddenly granting you mana in exchange for attack power, but still getting mad when you use magic. Enlightenment is now completely inaccessible and GG may as well have one less boon for all the good it's going to do the player.

I think the old GG could have worked, he just needed his piety income toned down and there needed to be an on worship effect so that he isn't for 1st level characters only.
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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby Darvin on Tue May 15, 2012 4:21 pm

I've played around with the new GG, and he kind of works, but in a really weird way. You basically just ignore his strictures against fighting higher level foes

Yup, the devs didn't really "fix" the GG's problems, they just lowered his piety loss to the point at which we could ignore them. If you begin worship early enough, it's considerably less restrictive than spellcasting with Taurog, and Taurog is one of the most laid-back gods out there.

The new piety gain structure has also created a new problem: you must begin GG worship no later than level 3 (unless you're just converting in for some last-minute protection after having used your potions). The GG already has a serious problem with both humility and absolution being front-loaded and best used at low levels, but his piety gain is now set up so people who join the religion at higher levels will never build up significant piety, which means he's completely useless for level 4-7 characters. You don't have the piety to afford his best boons, and they're weaker anyways since you're too high a level to leverage them effectively, and piety loss from killing higher level monsters is magnified since you need to kill more monsters to level up at this stage of the game.


but there is no boon in the game that is strong enough to compensate for the massive loss of xp that would entail.

And any such boon would be blatantly overpowered.


I also really, really hate the new theme for GG, and really miss the old "heroic redemption" theme. It was fun. It was a type of heroism that you don't normally see in fantasy games.

I agree; I loved the concept of the old Glowing Guardian. I've come to view the traditional fantasy adventure game as a bit of a moral joke; the "hero" invades the lair of "evil" creatures and proceeds to slaughter them with the primary motive of increasing his wealth and power. The context of the setting is that they really deserved what was coming to them, so you're not culpable for their outright extermination. This kind of merciless slaughter is difficult to justify, and usually fantasy games resort to very cliched displays of depraved villainy on a regular basis to maintain the player's moral superiority despite the violent acts committed.

I like that DD doesn't do this, and in fact implies the opposite; the kingdom is conquering this land from the monsters (who may or may not all be evil), you are the invader who is entering their homes and slaughtering their kin. The Glowing Guardian represents an actual god of heroism in such a setting; you have to rise above violence and redeem evil if you want to be a real hero. If you're just picking on those weaker than yourself, you are the monster.

Enlightenment is now completely inaccessible and GG may as well have one less boon for all the good it's going to do the player.

Thanks to stacking piety gain taking off, it's possible to get Enlightenment if you begin worship at level 1. If you stick with him for 8 level-ups, that's 108 piety total gained from leveling up. Desecrate an altar, convert a few items, and kill a handful of undead to top things off, and you can have the 180 piety you need for humility/absolution/enlightenment and convert out. If you have Pactmaker or if you worship him for 9 level-ups (135 piety) then this becomes even easier. Of course, because this piety gain is backloaded and that many level-ups is contingent on leveraging humility early it's basically impossible to do if you find GG after level 2.

Still very risky and a poor use of piety, though.


I think the old GG could have worked, he just needed his piety income toned down and there needed to be an on worship effect so that he isn't for 1st level characters only.

I believe the fundamental problem with the old structure is that his piety gain and his boons were front-loaded. Absolution and Humility are strongest when purchased at very low-levels, and at this stage pretty much everything counts as a higher-level kill for piety gain. Later on, this boons can't be leveraged effectively and piety gain with GG becomes a nightmare, while protection is one of the weakest late-game boons largely only useful to resist-stackers with HALPMEH. I agree he needed serious attention and minor tweaks to his piety gain probably weren't enough to completely solve his problems, but I don't believe the devs have really solved anything with their iteration.
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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby The Avatar on Tue May 15, 2012 7:47 pm

I liked the old GG too. The main problem was his theme was divided to be long term, while his Boons were front loaded. Enlightenement was a bad desicion. I think remaking Enlightenment or seriously buffing it could work, as long as it isn't too broken.
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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby Darvin on Tue May 15, 2012 8:23 pm

Enlightenment is a permanent boon that comes too late for you to leverage it over the long-run. It's going to be difficult to balance if the devs are determined to keep it at 100 piety.
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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby gjaustin on Tue May 15, 2012 8:47 pm

Darvin wrote:Enlightenment is a permanent boon that comes too late for you to leverage it over the long-run. It's going to be difficult to balance if the devs are determined to keep it at 100 piety.


Agreed. Enlightenment is only really useful in Naga City.

I haven't really used the new GG at all, since I just don't find being punished for things I HAVE to do to be fun. Taurog is the only other diety like that, but he offsets it by providing so much piety.
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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby Darvin on Tue May 15, 2012 8:53 pm

Stick with GG a little while, and he's like Taurog with useful boons.

3 piety for your first levelup, 6 for your next, then 9, then 12, then 15, and so on. If you can convert a few items to give yourself some wiggle room early (APHEELSIK or BLUDTUPOWA will make it a cakewalk) you'll be rolling in piety before long.
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Re: The Glowing Guadian

Postby The Avatar on Tue May 15, 2012 9:40 pm

Yeah, but I still can't stand his theme. I want my old GG back! While he kind of works right now, he really shouldn't stay this way.
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