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QCF Design Community • View topic - Please release the monster classes. They want to be free...


Please release the monster classes. They want to be free...

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Re: Please release the monster classes. They want to be free

Postby Joist on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:36 am

You say that a lot, have any of the devs said that?

Disleksia seemed concerned about the difficulty of the dungeons earlier in this thread, leading me to believe that he wants them hard but doable.
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Re: Please release the monster classes. They want to be free

Postby The Avatar on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:40 am

That's what I mean. By the time they've fixed all exploits, almost all of the strategies were using these days, they will be practically impossible. They will have to nerf them if they want people to have a chance.
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Re: Please release the monster classes. They want to be free

Postby Joist on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:42 am

Do you think any strategy used to beat a vicious dungeon should be considered an exploit?
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Re: Please release the monster classes. They want to be free

Postby The Avatar on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:58 am

Almost all. Berserker in VHoS is not. Alchemist scroll priest and rogue is.

Just compare boss stats. We'll take Shifting Passages. Evolvia, 400 hp and 97 attack. Then one random boss which will approximately have the same stats.

Now we'll take Dragon Isles. Firstborn, 600 hp, 112 attack. The Matron of Flame, 1400 hp, 112 attack.

Combined Stats:
SP: hp 800 and 194 attack
DI: hp 2000 and attack 224
Difference: 1200 hp and 30 attack.

Not only does our DI super-boss have 1200 more hp, it hits for 30 more each hit. And then there's the fact that dragon isles has one of the hardest monster sets in the game plus constricted movement space. Anything that can beat that makes hard look like a practical joke. If it can beat that it is either super specialized (i.e. VHoS berserker) or an exploit.
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Re: Please release the monster classes. They want to be free

Postby Bloggorus on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:32 pm

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Re: Please release the monster classes. They want to be free

Postby Lujo on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:37 pm

Add another... process, I guess... at work to what Avatar said and that is the possible inital / total resource loadout per dungeon for the player. If you can enter a HARD and a VICIOUS dungeon with the same prep loadout and beat both, and VICIOUS requires a much, much bigger amount of resourcess to take out the bosses, then you can look back at a HARD dungeon and figure out you've been given a lot more resources than was needed to overcome it. Since the regular players are complaining about difficulty allready, and the VICIOUS dungeons are really far away from HARD in terms of enemy resources, stuff has been nerfed to accomodate HARD play, and VICIOUS should be brought in line quite a bit sometimes in the future.

It also shows that whatever strat you use for beating VICIOUS can probably count as an exploit. In case it's not walking into a specific dungeon with a specific class, applying it elsewhere would probably make a HARD level look like child's play, and many of those strats had made the entire game look like a joke.

This also brings forth two examples of VICIOUS dungeons which are standouts from the current norm for VICIOUS - Naga City and Gaan'Telet, which upp the ammount of HP you have to take down to complete them, but give the player more total resources to find - making them possibly skewed in the players favour, depending on how much advantage you can squeeze out of all the extra altars. They're broken both ways, but at least it's obvious why, and it's not applicable elsewhere so you can actually have fun with it.
Last edited by Lujo on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please release the monster classes. They want to be free

Postby Joist on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:39 pm

@ avatar:
I mean, yeah they are crazy hard and once you can beat them the rest of the game feels like a joke but I remember when I couldn't beat Hard dungeons to save my life. It's all a big learning curve. I get your point though.

By the way, any chance you could post a run of you abusing the alchemist scroll? I don't think I use it right.

@ Bloggorus:

Nice! Now try halfing priest, prep tri-sword and binlor. Use binlor to get as much magic resist as you can. Fight the wraiths for preference because of the extra damage. Do the same thing as berserker, get to level 6 then start regen fighting Indomitable, you may need to chug a health pot to break the first death protection, hell use a few. You don't need many against Blahblah because you do massive damage with the priest skill.

Try this for Demonic Library : http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/DesktopDu ... ic_Library

That strat will also get you through Dragon Isles but it's much, much harder. Look for a soul orb or save a heck of a lot of mana pots for the final boss.

@ Lujo: the thing is, exponential enemy stats kind of make sense. For example, proper prep, say, doubles my overall efficacy, proper item and shop use doubles it again, superb god use may triple it. It sort of snowballs towards the vicious dungeons. IMO hard aren't the end, they're just another point on the learning cuve.
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Re: Please release the monster classes. They want to be free

Postby Lujo on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:44 pm

Yes, it would certanly seem so, but then you have a learning curve that curves in on it self - the way stuff other than Naga City and Gaan'Telet is designed requires you to UNLEARN stuff, rather than learn new tricks, and again, what you start using there, once applied to anythign else ammounts to looking for goats and killing bosses at lvl 1-4 or GTFO. We've had this discussion before :D
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Re: Please release th monster classes. They want to be free

Postby Joist on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:48 pm

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Re: Please release the monster classes. They want to be free

Postby Lujo on Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:02 pm

Well, if VICIOUS ammounted to more than "same as everything before but with more stats", I'd be hapy if it was harder/required more thought. It's not just going purist or not, it's the philosophy behind "the optimal strat" - exploration is not difficult or challenging, and with proper info (a wiki or a forum) yo know what to expect. And the current "optimal end game strat" is based off of exploration more than anything.

Gaan'Telet and Naga City make you grind for piety - which actually takes effort and knowlegde and expirience. It's impossible for a newbie and takes a bit of time/thought investment for a pro, but you actually get to pull off every trick in the book. It doesn't affect the abstract difficulty of HARD in the least bit, but it makes you interact with monsters and content, and use your knowlege of your class, race and gods (unless you transmute stuff for TT but that's an educated exploit ^^). If all VICIOUS was like that, forcing you to deal with content instead of dodge it it would still be harder than HARD, instead of "lol, HARDS not hard at all".

And my suggestion for fixing this would be to make all "special" mobs like the Red Djinns and the Dragonguards give no XP at all. That's the main problem with most VICIOUS dungeons IMO, since they need more monsters than regular dungeons they tend to go for the "boost monster stats" solution to deny the player extra XP. If the extra obstacles gave no XP but you could level catapult off of regular mobs in a sane fashion, the dungeons themselves could be balanced a lot more easily (like how much damage/stats does dragonmother need? How many Red Djinns? Etc...)
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