A problem of metagame

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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Lujo on Mon May 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Yep, I've sort of been suggesting having the "lock the niche stuff" slots in racial building upgrades for ages, so it doesn't clutter up the pool. Might very well be a good idea...
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby The Avatar on Mon May 14, 2012 3:02 pm

I was mainly thinking of it to get rid of items that don't help your specific strat.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Darvin on Mon May 14, 2012 3:33 pm

The problem is more that the game has a clutter of marginal items that have limited use and few conversion points. Basically, any item that has niche applicability needs to have large amounts of conversion points to ensure that worst-case scenario you at least have conversion fodder available for purchase. This makes items such as the blue bead - which are too inexpensive to be afforded large amounts of CP - a problem.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Sidestepper on Mon May 14, 2012 5:58 pm

When I was a beginner, I used to love the blue bead. I was like "Hey, its practically free, even if it doesn't do anything." I figured having it was better than having some other item which I might not be able to buy. Now, I would much rather have a wider selection of items and just accept leaving one or two behind rather than have one of those slots occupied by a rarely useful consolation prize.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby TigerKnee on Mon May 14, 2012 6:05 pm

Well, it's one of the casualties when the game went from a TARDIS infinite space inventory into the 6 slot thing we have now.

I honestly don't know if limited inventory space actually adds interesting design space to the system compared to Alpha.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Darvin on Mon May 14, 2012 6:10 pm

I honestly don't know if limited inventory space actually adds interesting design space to the system compared to Alpha.

I don't think the problem is inventory space. Now that items can be converted, you can always recycle inventory space and still get a net benefit. As well, many of the more niche items are small items and those have negligible inventory impact.


Blue Bead and Spoon in particular are great items in terms of their cost for effect. The problem is that they offer very poor density in terms of how much effect you get from your shops. For a gold-heavy run where complete buyouts are not uncommon (TT worshipper, a larger number of bosses, early gloves of midas), having a shop selling a low-cost/low-effect item is a waste.

Hmmm.... perhaps we should get something similar to the apothecary, where each shop randomly selects three different items. Take your pick, but you can only pick one of the three and the shop then disappears. This would vastly increase our selection from the shops without increasing the maximum amount we can buy. This could also balance the translocation scroll; you randomly get one of the three. Shoplifters can't be choosers :-D
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Sidestepper on Mon May 14, 2012 6:42 pm

TigerKnee wrote:Well, it's one of the casualties when the game went from a TARDIS infinite space inventory into the 6 slot thing we have now.

I honestly don't know if limited inventory space actually adds interesting design space to the system compared to Alpha.


I was talking about the opportunity cost of the shop being taken, not a space in inventory.

Darvin, I like your idea. This would dilute the effect that situational items have on the shop pool without having to resort to a blacklist mechanic.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Lujo on Mon May 14, 2012 6:58 pm

I really like Darvins idea, and the analysis of the real problem - waste of shop space. One of the key selling points of the orignial minimalist approaches was getting rid of excess potions in shops, and it was huge. Cluttered shops vs. uncluttered shops felt like a whole different game.

The browsing shops idea sounds great, the devs could also rig the what can and can't appear lists in whatever way they want.

Hmmm, what's up with so many great ideas floating around these days? :)
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby The Avatar on Mon May 14, 2012 7:09 pm

The one annoyance with the new system is there's now the chance that two items you want might appear in the same shop, making scumming more annoying. Perhaps there should be a bazaar prep that let's you buy another item from the first shop you shop at. You could not buy anything till late, ruining items like fine sword, or get it early, risking losing an item you want. Or that could be a tinker ability instead of +5 shops.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Lujo on Mon May 14, 2012 7:14 pm

There'd be plenty of laces to take this idea - there could be 2-3 regular one item shops where trinkets couldn't appear, then, say, 2 that sold item+trinket and 1 selling 3 items - a trinket, and two other items. You could unlock different levels of them by leveling up the bazzar and the bank (or whatever).

Plenty of ways to calibrate it...
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