A problem of metagame

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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Darvin on Mon May 14, 2012 7:19 pm

The Avatar wrote:The one annoyance with the new system is there's now the chance that two items you want might appear in the same shop, making scumming more annoying.


Let me just simplify it with an exapmle; suppose there are three shops. Under the old system, you might get:

Crystal Ball
Trisword
Spoon

Under the new system, you might get:

Crystal Ball, Platemail, Fine Sword
Trisword, Alchemist's Scroll, Tower Shield
Spoon, Battlemage Ring, Piercing Wand

So yeah, a lot of the items under my system would be mutually exclusive, but those extra items were not available at all under the old system. Sure, you can't get both Battlemage Ring and Piercing Wand, but under the old system neither were available, and your only option was the spoon; take it or leave it. If anything, this vastly reduces scumming... and actually when I multiply the effect over all the shops available in a dungeon that could be a lot of stuff available in any given run. As Lujo says, there's room for calibration, and this is just a suggestion in principle.


Having thought on this for a while, I think the only issue is beginners that might get overwhelmed by the shop system if it had the complexity. It should probably be unlocked via the Bezar quest line if implemented.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Joist on Mon May 14, 2012 7:49 pm

The Avatar wrote:The one annoyance with the new system is there's now the chance that two items you want might appear in the same shop, making scumming more annoying.


How does this make it more annoying?

"Oh, darn I have more chances for the item I want to spawn. So much more scumming to do"
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby The Avatar on Mon May 14, 2012 7:57 pm

Sorry, I was in a rush and I'm on low sleep. Didn't really think that one over.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Sidestepper on Mon May 14, 2012 8:03 pm

Darvin wrote:Having thought on this for a while, I think the only issue is beginners that might get overwhelmed by the shop system if it had the complexity. It should probably be unlocked via the Bezar quest line if implemented.


My preferred solution would be to have the number of slots per shop dependent on the number of items unlocked. So newbies would still have the basic 1-slot shops, which would gradually increase in size as they find more items. This would also solve the problem of selective unlocking in a manner similar to how they solved it with deities.

I think it would be best if the number of extra slots were just some fraction of your item unlocks (not counting the starter items, of course). These extra slots would then be divided amongst your shops as evenly as possible, up to some cap of 3 or 4 items per shop. This would allow for gradual, incremental improvement. So, if the fraction were 1/2, that would mean every two unlocks adds a new slot onto one of my shops. I would be much more excited about unlocking the blue bead if I knew it would actually increase my options instead of decrease them. It's sort of like how I now happily unlock Earthmother, since the extra altar that you get for having all 9 gods is worth the occasional dilution of the god pool.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby gjaustin on Mon May 14, 2012 8:49 pm

Darvin wrote:
The Avatar wrote:The one annoyance with the new system is there's now the chance that two items you want might appear in the same shop, making scumming more annoying.


Let me just simplify it with an exapmle; suppose there are three shops. Under the old system, you might get:

Crystal Ball
Trisword
Spoon

Under the new system, you might get:

Crystal Ball, Platemail, Fine Sword
Trisword, Alchemist's Scroll, Tower Shield
Spoon, Battlemage Ring, Piercing Wand

So yeah, a lot of the items under my system would be mutually exclusive, but those extra items were not available at all under the old system. Sure, you can't get both Battlemage Ring and Piercing Wand, but under the old system neither were available, and your only option was the spoon; take it or leave it. If anything, this vastly reduces scumming... and actually when I multiply the effect over all the shops available in a dungeon that could be a lot of stuff available in any given run. As Lujo says, there's room for calibration, and this is just a suggestion in principle.


Having thought on this for a while, I think the only issue is beginners that might get overwhelmed by the shop system if it had the complexity. It should probably be unlocked via the Bezar quest line if implemented.


I'd think the best way to handle it is to group items so that they always appear together in shops. I also think you'd only want to make it two choices, to keep things simple.

You'd group a niche item (e.g. Rock Heart) with a more general item for a different strategy (e.g. Battlemage Ring) in order to smooth out randomness in generation. This way you'd be less likely to have shops full of junk.

And you'd group really strong items (e.g. Trisword) with similar strong items (e.g. Alchemist's Scroll) to prevent runaway strategies from scumming, but at the same time if you prep one it "doubles" the chance of you getting the other one.


Translocation Scroll could only work on shops where one of the items has already been purchased. Since paired items would frequently have similar costs, this prevents abuses. So to get that free Amulet of Yendor, you'd have to rustle up enough gold to buy that Orb of Zot that appeared with it.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Darvin on Mon May 14, 2012 10:12 pm

My preferred solution would be to have the number of slots per shop dependent on the number of items unlocked

Works for me. Ultimately the biggest unlock in the game is Elite Items, which comes from the Bezar quest line, so I don't think the progression would be substantially different in either case.


You'd group a niche item (e.g. Rock Heart) with a more general item for a different strategy (e.g. Battlemage Ring) in order to smooth out randomness in generation. This way you'd be less likely to have shops full of junk.

Having a handful of shops full of junk is fine. So long as there's something worth a decent number of CP in there it's not completely useless, and the chances of getting something like the spoon, blue bead, and witchalok pendant all in one shop is pretty remote... and your chances of actually having a decent use for at least one is considerably higher.

I'd prefer to keep some degree of randomness with how the shops spawn in. Let players have their combos; if they're overpowered nerf them, but otherwise keep it variable. The whole point of this system is to give players choice without losing the randomness.


So to get that free Amulet of Yendor, you'd have to rustle up enough gold to buy that Orb of Zot that appeared with it.

Shops would disappear after one item is purchased, so you could not do this.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Bloggorus on Mon May 14, 2012 11:07 pm

Having shops with multiple items hadn't occurred to me, its a great idea.

One of the gold sink things could be heavily upgrading Bezaar to have one and then many shops hold three items to choose from. This would add the complexity and strategy that veterans crave without alienating new players.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Lujo on Mon May 14, 2012 11:11 pm

I really can't see there being more than 2 items per shop at best. 3 per sho would give 3X more possible items per run and then you might as well scrape the item locker as a concept :D

I still sort of feel like 3 regular, 2 with 2 items and one "mall" (3,4 items?) sounds bets to me, allthough everyone'd be scumming for the mall, the greedy powergamers that we all are...
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Bloggorus on Mon May 14, 2012 11:29 pm

Lujo wrote:I really can't see there being more than 2 items per shop at best. 3 per sho would give 3X more possible items per run and then you might as well scrape the item locker as a concept :D


I think if anything it would make the locker more useful and important. Scumming is caused by scarcity of resources, and increasing choice without increasing purchasing power will go a long way towards reducing players reloading.

With the locker acting as a guaranteed item, it allows gear based builds. However most gear based builds don't work because of the RNG only throwing up a few items, and almost always not the ones you might want for complex item strats. Having multiple item shops will drastically reduce scumming by increasing choice, but have no effect on player resources.

Similar to the rant at the start of the thread, increases in player choice in-game will preserve the sanctity of the in-game economy. I will take this kind of thing over more lockers or gold-only preps anyday.
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Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Bloggorus on Mon May 14, 2012 11:45 pm

On the subject of the gold sink ideas...

I think we need something to provide incentive beyond gold in the endgame. A meta-economy of dungeon interaction much like the one suggested by Sidestepper is a great idea.

I would like to see investments in class houses and guild become actual investments. They return income, but only small amounts if they go ignored. Finish more dungeons with different races and classes and income will increase. That way players can build and actual ' economy', rewarding them with income for their hard work rather than rewardign them for grinding (which can get tedious).

Unlocking a dungeon completely could unleash a harder version, much like VHOS. That progression is unique, very effective and should be repeated across all the dungeons.
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