A problem of metagame

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Blovski on Tue May 15, 2012 10:42 am

I dunno, this whole fiddling with shops thing seems like it would really hurt the procedural/decision-making part of a dungeon crawl and be needlessly fiddly. I don't know if it's just that I've left a couple of the rougher viciouses alone so far but I think being able to *rely* on the shops being useful will cut a huge amount of unpredictability (which is in moderation a good thing) from runs. A small blacklist as a prep isn't a terrible idea (and would give you somewhere to look at what items you've unlocked), though I think it makes it only more likely I would keep ignoring any items I'm ignoring at the moment. Re total buyout runs - now we've got the gold-sink items and a lower starting point they're a lot rarer (I tend to have elite items prepped, so very rare for me), and even then the spare gold can go to TT piety... I think it's fair to say that almost invariably a total buyout run will give you some sort of advantage and it's a bit silly to expect every run of that kind to offer roughly equal value - heavy gold runs are meant to be a bit risk-dependent on what you find.

I dunno, finding out what's in the shops without any foreknowledge or ability to directly affect that is a nice part of the procedural bit of DD... I think this'd just turn shopping into another element of the game to be prepared beforehand whereas now it works quite nicely as a random element. The only occasion in which you might absolutely *need* a particular item or type of item to show (in addition to a locker, potions and a blacksmith prep) is using tricky classes in viciouses.
Blovski
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Lujo on Tue May 15, 2012 12:03 pm

What your argument comes down to is whether there should be dungeons who's difficulty is reliant on what you find in shops like some of the current vicious dungeons. At least that's the way I relate to it - the easier dungeons don't need that much of a power boost, and the harder dungeons do, but the gap between 1 item per shop and any other ammount is so big that you're not playing the same game anymore.

Which is the "the difficulty of many VICIOUS dungeons is created by a process that makes hard look casual by comparison" arguments we had a while ago, and I can't remember how they were resolved. If they were resolved. I can't remember dev's talking about it, but maybe they did. It's (or was) a big issue, this is just one instance of it cropping up.

And I'm probably the biggest and most annoying proponent of redisigning the concept of VICIOUS if possible on the boards. There shouldn't be a need to have almost every item in the game available at all times.

However, having "trinkets" - low power, low CP items be sold alongside regular items would still be a good idea because the gap in usefullness between them and other items is too big for them to occupy the same dispenser slot, so to speak.

I suggest fixing it the way potions in shops molass was fixed, by introducing a trinket shop much like the apotecary which would have a wider selection of stuff that you could pick one out of?
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2823
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby The Avatar on Tue May 15, 2012 12:13 pm

That's true. I guess if they nerf Vicious to reasonable totals, it will not require so much scumming. The problem people have is they can get shut out from a good item through a low cash, low CP, low effect item (like a spoon, witchalock pendant, or blue bead).

@Bloggerous: Having a Vicious version of everything is an interesting idea. But you either want a Vicious version of everything, or no vicious versions. There's enough discrepancy as is ATM.

@Lujo: I agree on the trinket shop. And it would be a good prep replacement of shop scroll.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4452
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Bloggorus on Tue May 15, 2012 10:03 pm

I didnt imagine a vicious version, just a small bump with some different twists in there to rewards you for completely finishing a dungeon.

I kind of imagined it as 'new game +', where the dungeons gives you some crazy item or gold or power, with increased difficulty. Wouldn't have to be vicious, just harder with more stats overall.
User avatar
Bloggorus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Orstraleeea

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby The Avatar on Wed May 16, 2012 1:46 am

Basically making it more interesting yet difficult. Actually, I like the idea of a game plus that you could play after you beat Horratio Vicious.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4452
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Lujo on Wed May 16, 2012 6:27 am

Game + ? Like the VICIOUS dungeons I like, which give you more altars and make you fight more monsters?
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2823
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Sidestepper on Wed May 16, 2012 10:35 am

A "New Game+" could be interesting, but I don't think that simply upping everything to vicious level stats would hold my interest for long. The existing vicious dungeons are fun because they have unique mechanics and are the capstones to the main story arcs. Having a climatic battle with the creator of the magical tundra in front of the gates of hell excites me in a way that "Den of Danger: Vicious Version" does not.

I think Lujo has the right idea, where maybe New Game+ dungeons have extra altars, shops, powerups, or some such. The idea is that it would be a not-very-carefully-balanced playground where we could create insane combos and test them out against insane challenges.
Sidestepper
 
Posts: 773
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:36 am

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby The Avatar on Wed May 16, 2012 11:57 am

Then why don't we make a "creator's lair" dungeon for once you've beaten everything. You can spawn any item, monster boss, cover up the map, spawn walls, etc. and make three bosses named after the devs with practically invincible stats, so they're hard to beat even with super powers. And of course make anything spawned have no CP and No Exp. It'd be like Wizard Mode for Crawl.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4452
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby gjaustin on Wed May 16, 2012 2:17 pm

I'm pretty sure the devs have said that they're planning on making a difficulty setting to ramp up other dungeons.

You know what would be really cool? Having super-dungeons. They would contain every single dungeon in one direction (North, East, etc.). They would all be connected by stairs, so that you could go between all of them but you could only "advance" if you beat the boss in the dungeon. The goal would be to beat one of the Vicious bosses.

So you might start in the Western Jungle, which would lead to Havendale Bridge. Once you beat the Bridge, you'd have access to both Labyrinth and Magma Mines. You could jump between the two, but you could only advance once you beat one of them - and then only to the next dungeon after them in sequence.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: A problem of metagame

Postby Sidestepper on Wed May 16, 2012 2:26 pm

That sounds like it would be really fun. That would scratch the powergamer itch that we all get from time to time. You would eventually accumulate an insane amount of conversion, gear, and boons, but would have to deal with increasingly distant level up milestones. In the end, it would probably still be fairly easy, but oh man what a ride. It also sounds like it would have a relatively low development overhead since it doesn't require any new assets.

EDIT: The more I think about, the more I think that this would work better as some sort of ironman mode instead. You start out with a normal kingdom and with the normal post-tutorial resources, except that you can pick any class and any race from the beginning. Once you pick a character, you ARE that character for the rest of the game. When you enter a new dungeon, you retain the exact state that you had when you left the old one.

It would probably be pretty easy, but as the xp milestones get further and further apart, finishing all four vicious dungeons plus the tower might become challenging. You would need to tweak the availability of certain resources to to keep the concept interesting (I think altars and shops would work fine, but potions, glyphs, and especially powerups would need to be limited/removed from successive dungeons). It would probably also be best to enforce a "one visit only" rule to keep people from building up resources on an easy dungeon.

MORE EDIT: I've really got this idea stuck in my head so I might as well get it out of my system.

I think a one-character ironman mode could work with a few simple tweaks:
1) No powerups except for in the very first dungeon
2) No benefits for post-10 levelups. This screws goblins, but seems necessary to keep things interesting
3) Only one health and one mana potion per dungeon
4) Once you purchase/pick up an item or glyph, it is removed from the pool forever.
5) Conversion thresholds should be increased by some suitable amount
6) Once you convert away from a god, his/her altar vanishes from the pool forever.
7) The player can't leave a dungeon until every monster is dead
8) Open-ended stacking items like the alchemist scroll or the trisword would probably have to be excluded.


I doubt that anything like this will ever be implemented, but I'm interested in the idea as a thought experiment. Would a gamemode like this be viable? Are the restrictions enough to make a complete clear of the game an interesting challenge for the kind of uber-heroes that we would be building?
Sidestepper
 
Posts: 773
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:36 am

Previous

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests