Seal balance

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Re: Seal balance

Postby The Avatar on Tue May 08, 2012 9:44 pm

12-15? What? That's -3 Cp at level one, -18CP at level 2, etc. I'm probably misunderstanding, but that makes no sense. Anyways, if you meant plus, it would be too powerful for races that save conversions (I.E. Gnome, Halfling, and Goblin).

@Darvin: Then it seems off compared to all the other seals, because they are one use items.
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Re: Seal balance

Postby Darvin on Tue May 08, 2012 10:05 pm

I think he meant in the range of 12 through 15 per level. If the bonus was applied on-level-up, then goblin would be a non-issue. For gnomes and halflings, we're talking about 150 conversion points over your total character life, which is less than two potions. Less influential than translocating a keg.
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Re: Seal balance

Postby Blovski on Tue May 08, 2012 10:55 pm

Mm - I meant +12-15cp to the seal's conversion bonus per level (Maximum of 120-150, which is a lot better than the current, but that involves saving up your seal to level 10, which is quite a long time *and* overlooking a conversion bonus of 100 at low levels). It's clearly a bit more valuable for conversion saver races - by contrast the current flat rate conversion kind of favours those who plan on converting as soon as they see it - but it also involves a trade off for them, since the item slot is just as valuable and conversions only give them a one-off rather than a persistent bonus.
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Re: Seal balance

Postby Darvin on Tue May 08, 2012 11:13 pm

If it's applied all at once, then it's definitely too good for goblins. It'd basically be an Amulet of Yendor for them.
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Re: Seal balance

Postby Blovski on Tue May 08, 2012 11:53 pm

Darvin wrote:If it's applied all at once, then it's definitely too good for goblins. It'd basically be an Amulet of Yendor for them.


150cp for goblins is still only +7 minimum extra XP. If they can make it up with another conversion, +15 minimum extra xp (no idea what stacking XP people usually get up to as goblin, I tend to just botch through until I need to level). They'd probably be able to wing a level off it if they could nail a couple of mooks as they went, but it's still not close to Yendor. Problem with gradual application is that A) it doesn't thematically fit with the other seals and B) it doesn't really make the use of the seal any more strategic.

I agree that something in the range of 12-15cp a level is still a very patchy solution at best (and would love to see better ones) but it would make using the item more tactical.
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Re: Seal balance

Postby The Avatar on Wed May 09, 2012 12:13 am

I think just a complete remake, name concept, and all, is necessary in this case.
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Re: Seal balance

Postby Joist on Wed May 09, 2012 12:59 am

Couldn't a translocated item provide 0 CP, like a lockered item provides no gold?

I think transmutation is the seal that needs to be remade, not translocation. I use all the seals except transmutation, if translocation was removed/nerfed I still can't see myself taking transmutation.
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Re: Seal balance

Postby The Avatar on Wed May 09, 2012 1:20 am

Not translocation, conversion. Sorry I was unclear on that point.
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Re: Seal balance

Postby Lujo on Wed May 09, 2012 10:35 am

Whatever anyone does with the conversion seal, for the love of god don't overbuff the conversion stone again. Make it appear in the shops the way it is, it's lockerability was unintuitive and as an item prep it was just plain better than anything else.
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Re: Seal balance

Postby Darvin on Wed May 09, 2012 3:39 pm

If orcs go back to stacking conversion, then yes. Otherwise, sensation stone isn't really that impressive anymore. I've booted it out of my locker completely. For the record, 225 conversion points gets you:

Human: +20% attack
Dwarf: +3 HP per level
Orc: +4 base attack
Elf: +3 MP
Halfling: 3 health potions
Gnome: 3 mana potions

Goblin, being stacking, is variable. However, with Amulet of Yendor in the game I'm not too concerned with the sensation stone's potential in that respect. Otherwise, none of these are particularly oustanding. Most are exactly on par with various mid-range non-locker-worthy items, such as dwarven gauntlets, fine sword, and keg of health/mana. The dwarf and elf respectively aren't much better than just using a troll heart or pendant of mana. I'd much sooner take a better locker item and prep compression to save space.

I think you could make a very strong argument that, with both the stacking Orc and the Conversion Seal removed, the old 300 value is perfectly fine. A powerful top-end prep, for certain, but not a no-brainer.
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