Seal balance

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Seal balance

Postby The Avatar on Thu May 10, 2012 3:24 am

Then what? A flat +2 base, using up to 5 monsters for +10 base?
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4452
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Seal balance

Postby TigerKnee on Thu May 10, 2012 3:42 am

I think Orcs should just get 80-90 CP cost for conversion next version and see how it goes, shrug.
TigerKnee
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:54 am

Re: Seal balance

Postby Lujo on Thu May 10, 2012 10:23 am

About buffing conversion stone - it was never a problem in an off itself. Ok, it was, but the bigger problem is how much conversion value it added to a dungeon. I'm not saying it would necessarily be a problem, just that it generally SHOULD turn out to be.

Because if conversion means anything meaningfull, say adds base attack, even if it isn't stacking it's still a whole bunch of CP in there that wouldn't be there. Hmmm, how do I explain this?

There's aways a cap to the available CP in a dungeon and it's ussually (I guess always) finite. Add up all the glyphs and possible items, number of shops, blah blah, and the number is something. A 300 conversion stone brings that number up. Yes that means one or 2 more conversions, but they add up to the conversion points already present in the dungeon. What would the numbers on those be?

Again, not saying it's necessarily a problem, just wondering about it...
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2825
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Seal balance

Postby The Avatar on Thu May 10, 2012 12:24 pm

Well, if someone adds up all the highest conversion items+glyphs with and without the stone we can see how it lines up.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4452
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Seal balance

Postby Darvin on Thu May 10, 2012 3:52 pm

Well, let's presume you're a T3 class with a +1 glyph prep and you're using the Pactmaker's spirit pact. It's a fair presumption that you will retain one glyph in the end-game, so you'll convert 6 glyphs at 90 a pop for a total of 540 CP.

For item conversions Then let's say you use translocation scroll for a 100 CP item, from shops you acquire soul orb [65], venom ward [65], bloody sigil [65], and a Keg [70]. I'm sure more is possible if you can manage a total buy-out, but this should still be a high-end estimate of what can be expected from a conversion-heavy shopper. We'll add a 35 CP blacksmith item to round it out, though I suspect the vast majority of characters would be better served by a perseverance badge whose effect is the equivalent of 100 CP for a human. Accounting for the spirit pact, that's 460 CP.

So it looks like 1000 is our realistic upper limit. You could probably eke out a bit higher if you really push it, but I suspect this is the most you'll get under normal circumstances. Let's take a look at the relative gain offered by the 300 point sensation stone in these cases:

Human: +100% / +130%
Elf: +14 / +18
Dwarf: +12 / +16 (per level)
Halfling: +12 / +16
Gnome: +11 / +14
Orc (new): +20 / +26
Orc (old): +36 / +55
Goblin: +95 / +180

This only becomes a serious issue with stacking bonuses. In the case of halflings and gnomes this is really on par with the kegs for effect, and you'll probably get better returns out of alchemist scroll or mage plate for those races to boost the effectiveness of your potions. Humans, elves, dwarves, and new orcs are hit by diminishing returns are will be better returns from investing in other things.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3102
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: Seal balance

Postby The Avatar on Thu May 10, 2012 7:10 pm

But goblins level up three times. I only see a problem with dwarf, goblin, and elf assassins with Mage plate, or other caster items.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4452
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Seal balance

Postby Darvin on Thu May 10, 2012 7:23 pm

I don't see an issue with dwarves, for one very important reason: they need to counter-balance their hit points with attack damage. These numbers presume you convert everything with reckless abandon and eschew other potentially valuable resources, and even select a pact from the pactmaker to get a little bit extra. In practice, a dwarf's racial bonus can't be stacked to such incredible proportions because they need to balance it with attack damage to actually put it to use.

As for elves, keep in mind you're giving up a crystal ball prep to do this. The sensation stone amounts to +4 MP, which is a lot for a typical character but more of a drop in the barrel for elves which have already stacked MP to high proportions. If we're talking about a 25 MP Elf Assassin with a crystal ball versus a 29 MP Elf Assassin without it, I'd go with the 25 MP variety.

Goblins are the only ones I'm concerned, but I'm not completely convinced. What gives me pause is that this represents a total focus on conversion points, investing everything in stacking them to maximum proportions. This will leave your goblin character quite weak, without any other bonuses to speak of. Since we never had the 300-point sensation stones and stacking goblins in the same version, I can't say for sure whether this benefit would be too much, but I'd be interesting in seeing what the result is.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3102
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: Seal balance

Postby gjaustin on Thu May 10, 2012 8:01 pm

Putting Sensation Stone back to 300 would make it an interesting choice for Vampires and (maybe) Half-Dragons. Both 2.5 lifesteal and 60% knockback are not things you can get from items.

That said, Platemail and Rock Heart are probably better preps for them anyway.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Seal balance

Postby The Avatar on Thu May 10, 2012 8:48 pm

Never tried Rock Heart Half-Dragon, but I imagine it would be great with HALPMEH.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4452
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Seal balance

Postby Lujo on Fri May 11, 2012 8:32 am

Ok, two more questions:

1) how does the elf extra conversion benefits work in relation to the burndayraz "sweet spots" for pure casters? As in, the math.

2) if the stone is buffed back up, could it be inmplemented into the game in some way other than the counterintuitive "you gotta kill a mid dungeon monster then locker something that doesn't look lockerable... How about as a Hard or Vicious or Gold challenge unlock or something?

The way it is/was was really counter intuitive...
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2825
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests