Some Thoughts on Items

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby The Avatar on Tue May 22, 2012 8:23 pm

That suggested 20% of your resists seem a bit overkill. 10% seems much more reasonable.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4453
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby gjaustin on Tue May 22, 2012 9:05 pm

Sythion wrote:Hard to make resists multiplicative without a base. I suppose you could go multiplicative with lack of resist, with an equation like 100 - (100 - resist1) * (100 - resist2) etc., but that's a little obtuse.

I would rather see the -resist people take a % of your % instead of a flat rate. So if you have 50 resist a bandit might take 10 of that resist away, but if you have 10 resist he would only take away 2.


I wouldn't consider that obtuse.

That's how resists have worked in pretty much every game I've played in the last 10 years.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby Sythion on Tue May 22, 2012 9:15 pm

gjaustin wrote:
I wouldn't consider that obtuse.

That's how resists have worked in pretty much every game I've played in the last 10 years.


Perhaps obtuse was the wrong word, since effective reduction can be shown at the top. However, it is unintuitive (despite your past experiences). There will likely be many people thinking "I have 50% resist and I got 10% resist. Why is my resist only 55% instead of 60%?!?"

I actually can't think of a game that works this way, but there might be some. All games I can think of work off of an armor/resistance "value" system where the total armor value can go to infinity, but is applied to some sort of function with a horizontal asymptote to soft cap it.
User avatar
Sythion
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:38 pm

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby gjaustin on Tue May 22, 2012 9:29 pm

Sythion wrote:
gjaustin wrote:
I wouldn't consider that obtuse.

That's how resists have worked in pretty much every game I've played in the last 10 years.


Perhaps obtuse was the wrong word, since effective reduction can be shown at the top. However, it is unintuitive (despite your past experiences). There will likely be many people thinking "I have 50% resist and I got 10% resist. Why is my resist only 55% instead of 60%?!?"

I actually can't think of a game that works this way, but there might be some. All games I can think of work off of an armor/resistance "value" system where the total armor value can go to infinity, but is applied to some sort of function with a horizontal asymptote to soft cap it.


The armor/resistance value system pools all of the armor and resistance into a single source. Look at Diablo 3. You have the value system, but your armor reduction and resistance reduction are multiplicative when combined. Any other damage resistance abilities are then multiplicative with that result. So 50% reduction from armor and 50% reduction from resists results in taking 25% damage.

Another example is Mass Effect 3. All of the damage resistance sources are multiplicative, otherwise an Enraged Krogan with Tech Armor standing in a Biotic Bubble would be completely immune to damage. All the Bioware games I've played (Dragon Age 1 and 2, Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3) work like that.


Some people might be confused by it, but it's pretty much an industry standard since it's the only way to really balance those things. Though I find it interesting that Dodge doesn't usually fall into that, and dodge has been additive in almost everything I've ever played.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby Sythion on Tue May 22, 2012 10:49 pm

None of the games you are referring to have direct % based damage reduction (except Diablo 3 separately through skills, which are additive). They all use abstract armor or reduction values, soft capped as I explained above.That's not the same as multiplicative stacking.

In Diablo 3 damage applies to either armor or resistances, not both, so your point is moot. Even if it weren't, we're talking about two completely different things here. The items in DD are not "different sources" they just add to your magic resist value. If there were some sort of "damage resistance" (not damage reduction) and "magic resistance" as different values, I would expect those to be multiplicative for the reasons you stated above. But they aren't.

Abstract armor/magic resistance values are a route this game could take, but I don't think that's necessary.
User avatar
Sythion
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:38 pm

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby Bloggorus on Wed May 23, 2012 12:05 am

Mathematical systems are nice and all, but i feel that using varying percentages just makes things too complex.

At the moment monsters have different amounts of resist down but nobody plays them that way- its either you can, or cannot touch a resits down monster.

Seriously, all the other debuffs are temporary and quite simple in their execution. Just make resist down function like mana burn and poison- you lose ALL resists until you cure the effect. Call it 'slow' if you like, curable with a quicksilver, reflex or level up.

Mana burn and poison are a handicap for magic users and fighters respectively, i dont see why resist down shouldne tbe the same for resist dependent characters. You weigh up your options and take the plunge if you think you can cure the effect before you get screwed.

Making the system needlessly complex is... needlessly complex.
User avatar
Bloggorus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Orstraleeea

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby The Avatar on Wed May 23, 2012 2:24 am

Now that I agree with completely. One of DD's biggest attractions for me was that the math for damage taken vs. dealt was obvious, easy, and straightforward. Please, let's avoid complexity.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4453
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby gjaustin on Wed May 23, 2012 3:10 am

Sythion wrote:None of the games you are referring to have direct % based damage reduction (except Diablo 3 separately through skills, which are additive). They all use abstract armor or reduction values, soft capped as I explained above.That's not the same as multiplicative stacking.

In Diablo 3 damage applies to either armor or resistances, not both, so your point is moot. Even if it weren't, we're talking about two completely different things here. The items in DD are not "different sources" they just add to your magic resist value. If there were some sort of "damage resistance" (not damage reduction) and "magic resistance" as different values, I would expect those to be multiplicative for the reasons you stated above. But they aren't.

Abstract armor/magic resistance values are a route this game could take, but I don't think that's necessary.


Mass Effect is absolutely direct % based reduction.

And damage IS blocked by both armor and resistances in Diablo 3. It wasn't that way in Diablo 2, but in Diablo 3 armor applies to EVERYTHING :)

And I'll have to agree to disagree that Tower Shield and Enlightenment count as the same source of resistances. Both of them block 10% of the damage you take. The only difference between what I'm suggesting and what the system is currently, is what order they're applied.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby gjaustin on Wed May 23, 2012 2:29 pm

Oh, and to be fair, I did think of an example that's counter to my claim. Evasion mechanics in World of Warcraft (at least in the first few expansions) were added together.

So I'm going to rephrase my claim to:

"Every other game I've played in the last 10 years that has percentage damage reduction has made those percents multiplicative."
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Some Thoughts on Items

Postby Darvin on Wed May 30, 2012 4:26 pm

Some more thoughts on (specific) items:

Balanced Dagger
The concept behind this item is quite interesting, but scuttled by its 2 GP cost per activation. As a preparation, you may as well take the Amulet of Yendor which is a flat +50 XP (about the max you could ever hope for with balanced dagger) and costs no additional gold and lets you time the activation for maximum effectiveness. In-dungeon, the gold cost of activation for this thing is just unreasonable for what it grants. This is before we even get into the long-term opportunity cost it incurs by clearing out your popcorn.

I'd say drop the gold cost entirely from this item. I suspect it has a whole bunch of strategic quirks and shortcomings that aren't even coming out of the woodworks yet because it's just too expensive to use.


Gloves of Midas
I was calculating the CP:GP ratio of the best conversion fodder items in the game the other day, and Gloves of Midas are just right out of the ballpark. Given that the item's primary purpose is farming gold to purchase other conversion fodder items, that's a problem. It probably should be dropped down to (at most) 40. Its old value made more sense back in the days when a lot of cheap stuff converted for 50+ CP, but it's now unreasonable.

For the record, the top three conversion fodder items are Gloves of Midas (6.5 CP/GP), Bloody Sigil (5.6 CP/GP), and venom ward/soul orb (4 CP/GP). The Bloody Sigil is more of a penalty than a benefit to high-level characters, so its high CP is justified.


Venom Sword
Something needs to be done about this thing. In practice, most characters will want to attack a monster 2-3 times before heading out to heal, but the Venom Sword's effect get removed if you attack the monster more than once. Any monster that's strong enough to kill you in two hits is probably too strong to take down with only a single application of poison, and this will only matter in a battle between two glass cannons (ie, CYDSTEPP Rogue versus Bleaty, one of the few cases this item shines), which is much too niche for an item of this cost.

I'm not sure what the solution is. One possibility is to make it cost 2 GP to activate for a single use of poison, and then remove the restriction that it cannot be used against the same monster twice, but I think we already have enough gold cost items in the current roster (even if balanced dagger gets removed). However, something needs to be done because I just don't use this item except to convert it (50 CP for 16 GP is a decent deal).


Whurrgarbl / Martyr Wraps
These items are interesting, but the effect is just too low if you're not packing massive quantities of resist to get in repeated attacks. Particularly now that the burning cap has been lowered and BLUDTUPOWA is now completely useless for physical/magic hybrids, Whurrgarbl just doesn't seem to have a strong purpose for any characters. I hate to say it, but their current effects are just not working out at their current price points, and at very minimum they'll need a secondary effect.


Strength Potion
This item has been nerfed into the ground, and is basically only useful for silly attempts to kill bosses as level 1 characters. In fact, it's never been particularly useful outside of the old PISORF exploit. Put bluntly, a single-use of +13 base attack is not worth 13 mana. Even with Crusader-level attack bonus, that's only going to be about +35 damage. You'd only need to be level 5 to get better performance out of BURNDAYRAZ, and for people without vastly boosted attack bonus the comparison is even worse.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3146
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests