Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:22 pm

I think Rock Garden is fine as is. It's a gentle introduction to the concept of maze dungeons.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Darvin on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:25 pm

Not sure how I feel about Rock Garden in particular.

... does it need adjustment?

The Rock Garden is somewhat unique in that it has significantly more resources than a usual dungeon (spoons from plants, extra monsters for extra XP, extra gold drops due to the boss loadout) but also has significantly more challenges than a comparable dungeon. As a result, there's a bit of an issue with momentum and traction. For a beginner with a poorly-suited loadout of preps it would be very difficult to get momentum on this dungeon and really capitalize on those extra resources it has to offer. For experts with good preps that can get their runs off the ground early, this is an entirely different matter and all those extra resources let them ride to a much easier victory.

I'm not sure if there's an easy solution here without taking away the aspects that make this particular dungeon unique. Perhaps you could move the two brothers of stone to the center of the dungeon (in locations that won't block hallways). This would remove the biggest luck factory with regards to Rock Garden: finding the bosses before exploration is heavily depleted.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Nandrew on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:41 pm

Darvin wrote:I'm not sure if there's an easy solution here without taking away the aspects that make this particular dungeon unique. Perhaps you could move the two brothers of stone to the center of the dungeon (in locations that won't block hallways). This would remove the biggest luck factory with regards to Rock Garden: finding the bosses before exploration is heavily depleted.


If I have time to take such a measure tomorrow, I'll give it a go. Sounds worthwhile.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby subanark on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:45 pm

As far as "Your an Idiot" goes, TT is one of the worst offenders. Worshiping him without knowing what he likes and doesn't like is a sure way to have a failed game. Trying to worship him early on is also very difficult to do properly unless you really outgear the enemies and you aren't using that to go after much more power enemies.

I think he could use a "+1" piety per level below level 10 on initial worship (crafty youngster bonus) to give that extra flex room for early worship. Personally, I pick up TT at level 5 or 6 once I feel the need to kill lower level stuff to help round out my leveling.

Most the other gods you aren't very likely to piss off right off the bat as easily. Taurag gives piety for previous kills, Mysteria rewards previous magic use (she should really summon a random glyph in the dungeon if you don't have one up yet), GG could get you for using "evil" magic or potion use, but that isn't as likely. Drac also rewards previous kills.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby gjaustin on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:00 am

Darvin wrote:
Not sure how I feel about Rock Garden in particular.

... does it need adjustment?

The Rock Garden is somewhat unique in that it has significantly more resources than a usual dungeon (spoons from plants, extra monsters for extra XP, extra gold drops due to the boss loadout) but also has significantly more challenges than a comparable dungeon. As a result, there's a bit of an issue with momentum and traction. For a beginner with a poorly-suited loadout of preps it would be very difficult to get momentum on this dungeon and really capitalize on those extra resources it has to offer. For experts with good preps that can get their runs off the ground early, this is an entirely different matter and all those extra resources let them ride to a much easier victory.

I'm not sure if there's an easy solution here without taking away the aspects that make this particular dungeon unique. Perhaps you could move the two brothers of stone to the center of the dungeon (in locations that won't block hallways). This would remove the biggest luck factory with regards to Rock Garden: finding the bosses before exploration is heavily depleted.


Rock Garden is, IMO, even fairly easy as Purist. It really is the spoons. A Rogue with that much bonus damage can one-shot anything within two levels of him.

I like your suggestion, but my suggestion is slightly different. Not all of the plants should drop Spoons. A level 1 Rogue with a Fine Sword and Blacksmith Sword prep can be running around with as much as 40 damage!
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Darvin on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:00 am

Rock Garden is, IMO, even fairly easy as Purist.

For veterans like us, Ick Swamp and Slime Pit are the only dangerous sub-vicious dungeons. Everything else is fairly straightforward on a purist run. That doesn't necessarily mean so for a beginner.

A level 1 Rogue with a Fine Sword and Blacksmith Sword prep can be running around with as much as 40 damage!

First of all, that's effectively impossible without ENDISWAL or WEYTWUT. The layout the dungeon means you will be forced to fight through many monsters to get to all the plants, and will gain several levels in doing so. A rogue with a fine sword and a sword is already a wickedly strong attacker, and your primary issue will be locating appropriately-leveled monsters without expending too much black space.

That brings me to the second issue: you have to expend most of your exploration to do this. That's a huge sacrifice and quite frankly one I don't think is worth it for a small amount of bonus XP.


Again, I'm not saying this level is super-hard, but I am saying it's still harder than most of the other directional dungeons at the same level of progression.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Zalminen on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:11 am

subanark wrote:Most the other gods you aren't very likely to piss off right off the bat as easily. Taurag gives piety for previous kills, Mysteria rewards previous magic use (she should really summon a random glyph in the dungeon if you don't have one up yet), GG could get you for using "evil" magic or potion use, but that isn't as likely. Drac also rewards previous kills.

*cough* Binlor *cough*

I worship Binlor, then notice some higher level monster I can easily kill and forget to gather spare piety first for the leveling penalty :?
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Darvin on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:55 am

Hmmm... now that he no longer gives ENDISWAL he probably should give starting piety. "Binlor offers a generous signing bonus" maybe +1 piety for every 10 tiles that are revealed, just like alpha Pactmaker. That would make late worship a little more sensible for this guy.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby gjaustin on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:09 am

Darvin wrote:
Rock Garden is, IMO, even fairly easy as Purist.

For veterans like us, Ick Swamp and Slime Pit are the only dangerous sub-vicious dungeons. Everything else is fairly straightforward on a purist run. That doesn't necessarily mean so for a beginner.

A level 1 Rogue with a Fine Sword and Blacksmith Sword prep can be running around with as much as 40 damage!

First of all, that's effectively impossible without ENDISWAL or WEYTWUT. The layout the dungeon means you will be forced to fight through many monsters to get to all the plants, and will gain several levels in doing so. A rogue with a fine sword and a sword is already a wickedly strong attacker, and your primary issue will be locating appropriately-leveled monsters without expending too much black space.

That brings me to the second issue: you have to expend most of your exploration to do this. That's a huge sacrifice and quite frankly one I don't think is worth it for a small amount of bonus XP.


Again, I'm not saying this level is super-hard, but I am saying it's still harder than most of the other directional dungeons at the same level of progression.


I think you're still thinking of the dungeon before the addition of spoons. Because before that I would have agreed with every one of your points.

But that many spoons would make even Ick Swamp easy!
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby fall_ark on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:50 am

So I went to Rock Garden with a Human Rogue to try out the spoons. I got lucky with a WONAFYT glyph, and prepped a glyph magnet to get PISORF.

Basically what Darvin said. The layout could be very unforgiving, especially when it comes to bosses.
Image

Though I fear I have lost the newbie perspective... I'll do a few Purist runs to see if more physical-inclined classes would have problems with the tight corridors when I have time.
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