Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Nandrew on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:45 am

Okay, what if the brothers just "cleared the neighbourhood" around their spawn area, so they'll always be in the open instead of a corridor?
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby fall_ark on Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:36 am

Nandrew wrote:Okay, what if the brothers just "cleared the neighbourhood" around their spawn area, so they'll always be in the open instead of a corridor?


Since you're already (hopefully) going to try Darvin's suggestion first, that would be redundant. ;)

Alternatively, how about the brothers always spawn in opposite directions and the third boss spawn in another corner? Nothing too systematic, just give the player some sort of control over their exploration.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Nandrew on Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:12 am

I've, uh, hmm ... sorta half-done the thing I said I would. The bosses haven't been explicitly moved closer to the center, but the enemy generation rules have been changed a little to give all spawns more breathing room regarding where they're placed (it was easier and will hopefully have a similar effect :P ).

Coupled with surrounding tile clearance (which will make the telltale blood easier to spot, too) players should have fewer problems with cruel generation.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Nandrew on Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:14 am

If it's still a problem after this week's update, I'll write a smarter script next week when I have more time. ;)
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby gjaustin on Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:09 pm

fall_ark wrote:So I went to Rock Garden with a Human Rogue to try out the spoons. I got lucky with a WONAFYT glyph, and prepped a glyph magnet to get PISORF.

Basically what Darvin said. The layout could be very unforgiving, especially when it comes to bosses.
Image

Though I fear I have lost the newbie perspective... I'll do a few Purist runs to see if more physical-inclined classes would have problems with the tight corridors when I have time.


Wow, that is an atrocious spawn.

The vast, vast majority of spawns aren't like that, but I certainly am looking forward to something like that being less likely.

Still, spoons!

Edit: You should also be a Dwarf. Your damage is so high already, that being able to survive an extra hit is much more valuable.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby fall_ark on Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:20 pm

gjaustin wrote:
fall_ark wrote:So I went to Rock Garden with a Human Rogue to try out the spoons. I got lucky with a WONAFYT glyph, and prepped a glyph magnet to get PISORF.

Basically what Darvin said. The layout could be very unforgiving, especially when it comes to bosses.
Image

Though I fear I have lost the newbie perspective... I'll do a few Purist runs to see if more physical-inclined classes would have problems with the tight corridors when I have time.


Wow, that is an atrocious spawn.

The vast, vast majority of spawns aren't like that, but I certainly am looking forward to something like that being less likely.

Still, spoons!

Edit: You should also be a Dwarf. Your damage is so high already, that being able to survive an extra hit is much more valuable.


In the end it's still a breeze (I prepped Namtar's Ward so....yeah, no wonder it was easy). Being a human let me one-shot the spawned Golems up to lvl 8 (only managed to one-shot lvl 9s when I'm lvl 10). One dodge against Lord Gobb seals my Faithless & Parched run.

On the screencap there I have full mana and fireballed each Goo Blob once, finishing them off and gained enough exp for a full heal. Then I fireballed the PR brother twice, hit him once thanks to the shop-bought Plate Mail, fireball him twice with a Schadenfreude potion just consumed, and finished him off. I think I got about ~140 damage in the end.

It is the last corner of the map I explored though, because a few high level Goo Blobs blocking the way(I think there's another lvl 8/9 just at one of the blood pools). Could be very tricky if I'm with cheaper preparations or unluckier in game shop spawns.

The locker space is still too tight, otherwise I'll definitely do a Dwarf+Dwarven Gauntlets run.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby Darvin on Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:04 pm

Wow, that is an atrocious spawn.

The vast, vast majority of spawns aren't like that,

Hmmm... my experiences have been the opposite (though this is probably one of the worst examples I've seen). The vast majority of runs have at least one boss blocked off by multiple high level monsters or another boss. I've always found the real challenge on this dungeon is accessing what you need without expending too much resources, which is why ENDISWAL is such a massive benefit on this dungeon.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby phroggie on Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:59 am

I hope no-one minds a newb returning to a thread months old, after going through several pages this seemed to be the thread that raised the most poignant newb points for me. I played the free alpha a year or so back, and a recent bored afternoon of clicking through some old bookmarks I found the game had advanced quite a bit - yay! So I grabbed the beta and have sunk a couple of long days into it. I wasn't very good at the alpha, the "10 minute games" were often 30 minute games for me trying to count up all the variables and in the end I only unlocked a handful of characters - but I loved the game, and it took me to my generally fruitless days of monochrome ascii nethack.

I think the beta is great, having some story, quests and structure gives me so much more reason to come back and play again. But for a newb, even one with some alpha-experience, it's a tough game and can be very unforgiving (not as unforgiving as the alpha, at least now I get the option to just walk away from a dungeon if I just don't have the power for those last few guys).

I haven't played a "hard" dungeon yet, I started of feeling all smart and powerful but now the normal dungeons which were completely stomping me are now generally taking 5 ish goes - often depending on the class, luck/randomness. Loosing resources by dying makes the progress seem defeating at times, but when I've pushed through it's worked out.

But even some of the tutorials (or puzzles?) totally stump me, I can't for the life of me get the final hit on the level 3 snake in the 2nd Halfling puzzle - I must have tried 20+ times. I still struggle to see the usefulness in many glyphs and convert most of them (some of the less obvious ones I don't is because of a good tutorial, such as the petrification/experience one - it's a major part of my strategy now).

The game really rewards knowledge of things that are either learnt by mistakes that often end up killing you. For example, my Sorcerer cleared the dungeon and then there was a sub-dungeon with a dragon in it, it's immune to physical damage so I threw a fireball at it and died. It took me another 3 or 4 goes to clear that dungeon again, I've learnt to avoid the dragon but have absolutely no idea what it does. With some of the glyphs, I've tried using them but couldn't tell what any of the secondary elements of it was doing (I think it's the swap-spots one, seems to have other benefits such as no retaliation but it didn't seem to do that for me).

What I would love to see (and this is just me dreaming out loud), and it's not an easy/hard version of the game - I think that would defeat the purpose, but a semi-cut down version of the game (could be optional for the advanced player) which is easier or a long faux-introduction but without all the bells and whistles of the full game. Perhaps make between 1 to 3 of the "hard" rounds be the conquering of that realm before your prestige gets you invited to a new kingdom that is essentially the current full game (minus some of the very basic intro bits there now).

Sorry for the long post, I'm loving the game - but it is definitely a big challenge for a newb and the learning curve is steep and harsh.
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby q 3 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:13 pm

Most of the tutorials (other than the starter pack) get kind of ridiculously obtuse - often involving tactics that are distinctly sub-optimal in actual dungeons. I had to look up solutions to quite a few of them, myself.

Having a clearer introduction for more eccentric monster traits like Retaliate Fireball (the reason that dragon killed you) would be a very good idea; the devs are talking about adding a codex to the game, but specific tutorials or dungeons that are designed to teach them would be a good idea. (Honestly, I still think Retaliate Fireball, or Counter Fireball as it used to be called, is a fairly silly and needlessly obtuse trait; 95% of the time it's functionally equivalent to magic immunity, and the other 5% involves things that even many veterans never figured out on their own, like that you don't incur retaliation if your fireball kills the monster.)
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Re: Gold strategies and a "You're an Idiot" button

Postby The Avatar on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:13 pm

Actually, with the addition of help signs, the god puzzles are much easier. Unfortunately, the halfling and gnome ones are still very hard, as is the second JJ puzzle.
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I speak chaos.
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