Edge case strike order discussion.

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Edge case strike order discussion.

Postby AvovA17 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:50 am

Have a normal monster at 1hp and burning. Attack a cursing enemy. You will get a curse stack of 1, even though the burning monster died.
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Re: Bug reports (Spoilers ahoy!)

Postby dislekcia on Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:17 am

AvovA17 wrote:Have a normal monster at 1hp and burning. Attack a cursing enemy. You will get a curse stack of 1, even though the burning monster died.


If you got hit by the cursing enemy you'd have 2 curses from the interaction. Did you not get hit?
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Re: Bug reports (Spoilers ahoy!)

Postby AvovA17 on Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:05 am

No, I think each time you get hit by a curser, you get 1 stack of curse. When you kill it, you get one more.

Anyway, I tried to reproduce it, and I did not get a curse stack. I had a meatman at 1hp/burning, I hit a Bandit in melee, I got no curse stacks from him. The meatman died. After I hit the bandit again, I got 1 curse. So I failed to reproduce it with a gorgon or a sourceror. I do not remember which class I was playing with when I saw it, but I was very carefully counting the curse stacks cause I had to rely on my resists for the boss battle. Oh well, some bugs are hard to reproduce.
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Re: Bug reports (Spoilers ahoy!)

Postby dislekcia on Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:36 am

AvovA17 wrote:No, I think each time you get hit by a curser, you get 1 stack of curse. When you kill it, you get one more.

Anyway, I tried to reproduce it, and I did not get a curse stack. I had a meatman at 1hp/burning, I hit a Bandit in melee, I got no curse stacks from him. The meatman died. After I hit the bandit again, I got 1 curse. So I failed to reproduce it with a gorgon or a sourceror. I do not remember which class I was playing with when I saw it, but I was very carefully counting the curse stacks cause I had to rely on my resists for the boss battle. Oh well, some bugs are hard to reproduce.


This doesn't sound hard to reproduce - in the original complaint you traded blows and got hit by a cursing enemy and gained 1 curse, then you got another curse from that enemy dying, then you lost 1 curse from the burning enemy dying. I've recreated it a bunch, marking this as not a bug.
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Re: Bug reports (Spoilers ahoy!)

Postby srid on Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:39 am

@dislekcia: I think that when AvovA17 said that:

AvovA17 wrote:No, I think each time you get hit by a curser, you get 1 stack of curse. When you kill it, you get one more.


He meant that he is well aware that you get 1 corrosion per hit + 1 corrosion on death, and that when he had his buggy interaction he did not kill the cursing enemy, and the burning enemy was not cursing either.

Anyway, I managed to reproduce it, it's fairly easy with a Rogue in Cursed Oasis where you get Animated Armors and Bandits (and I did not level up during the test either).

What causes the "bug" is when you have First Strike.

It's not visible in the game, but having First Strike actually makes your attack happen before the enemy riposte, while otherwise the enemy riposte happens first. The main incidence is of course that if the enemy is dead, he cannot riposte, but it also has a few other corner cases like this one, where the burning pop happens right after your attack, and before the enemy could apply cursed on you.

Therefore, IMHO, I would not call that a "bug", but rather a "dark corner case".
Anyway, I'm not one of the original game devs, so I leave them to be judge.
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Re: Bug reports (Spoilers ahoy!)

Postby AvovA17 on Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:51 am

srid wrote:Anyway, I managed to reproduce it, it's fairly easy with a Rogue in Cursed Oasis where you get Animated Armors and Bandits (and I did not level up during the test either).


Ah, thanks. Indeed, Rogue in CO easily reproduces this. I just reproduced it twice, "works" like a charm.
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Re: Bug reports (Spoilers ahoy!)

Postby dislekcia on Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:53 pm

srid wrote:Therefore, IMHO, I would not call that a "bug", but rather a "dark corner case".
Anyway, I'm not one of the original game devs, so I leave them to be judge.


*waves*

Like I said, it's not a bug because it behaves exactly the same way as all other curse stack applications. The curse stack that's removeable by burning popcorn to death is the on-hit application, not the death application. Otherwise killing a cursing enemy would remove its own on-death curse application and the entire ability wouldn't exist ;)

Setting up a burning kill is much more work than just walking over and killing the popcorn after you get cursed?
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Re: Bug reports (Spoilers ahoy!)

Postby srid on Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:30 am

dislekcia wrote:The curse stack that's removeable by burning popcorn to death is the on-hit application, not the death application


We are not talking about death application here.
In our scenario, you kill a non-cursing enemy by popping a burning stack,
and that burning stack is popped because you hit a cursing enemy WITHOUT KILLING HIM.

What I call a "dark corner case" is that the result of that interaction depends on if the player has first strike of not.
If he doesn't have first strike, the on-hit application happens BEFORE the burning pop, and so the on-hit curse is removed.
If he does have first strike, the on-hit apllication happens AFTER the burning pop, and so the on-hit curse is NOT removed.

This has nothing to do with on-death application.

dislekcia wrote:Setting up a burning kill is much more work than just walking over and killing the popcorn after you get cursed?


Typically Cursed Oasis is the perfect counter-example where you can spend quite some ressources to kill an Animated Armor that is 1 level above you, and where your final fireball leaves it with 1HP and a burning stack.
Being in Cursed Oasis where curses are frequent and have a strong impact on the dungeon, you tend to try not
wasting too much popcorn just on curse removal, so it makes perfect sense.

Imagine a lvl 6 Player that burns an lvl 7 Animated Armor until he has no DP left and a burn stack, and he has enough HP and damage to kill a lvl 7 Bandit in two blows. He also has 3 mana left and Gettindare to not get hit the second time.

Then, if gettindare is not activated on the first attack, he will get 0 curse on the first attack (thanks to the burning kill), cast gettindare, and get 0 curse on the second attack (thanks to the Bandit not retaliating), and 1 curse upon the Bandit death.
In the end he has 1 curse.
But if gettindare was activated on the first attack, he will get 1 curse on the first attack (because the burning kill will happen before the bandit retaliation), cast gettindare again, get 0 curse on the second attack (thanks to the Bandit not retaliating), and 1 curse upon the Bandit death. In the end he has 2 curse.

The difference was if he casted Gettindare at the beginning of the fight or not.
In a level like Cursed Oasis, 1 more curse layer can sometimes really make the difference.

I hope it is clearer now.
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Re: Bug reports (Spoilers ahoy!)

Postby dislekcia on Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:27 am

srid wrote:What I call a "dark corner case" is that the result of that interaction depends on if the player has first strike of not.
If he doesn't have first strike, the on-hit application happens BEFORE the burning pop, and so the on-hit curse is removed.
If he does have first strike, the on-hit apllication happens AFTER the burning pop, and so the on-hit curse is NOT removed.

This has nothing to do with on-death application.


This is literally how the game works and how it teaches you that the strike ordering works. What is the problem? I thought you were confused about death order event application, because I didn't think anyone would be confused about this?

srid wrote:Then, if gettindare is not activated on the first attack, he will get 0 curse on the first attack (thanks to the burning kill), cast gettindare, and get 0 curse on the second attack (thanks to the Bandit not retaliating), and 1 curse upon the Bandit death.
In the end he has 1 curse.
But if gettindare was activated on the first attack, he will get 1 curse on the first attack (because the burning kill will happen before the bandit retaliation), cast gettindare again, get 0 curse on the second attack (thanks to the Bandit not retaliating), and 1 curse upon the Bandit death. In the end he has 2 curse.

The difference was if he casted Gettindare at the beginning of the fight or not.
In a level like Cursed Oasis, 1 more curse layer can sometimes really make the difference.


So by not spending mana and not casting an unnecessary glyph, the player ends up in a better position? If someone's going to pre-cast Getindare a bunch to scum for dodges, then chances are they're aware of the strike order enough to know when they're going to get cursed or not. I really don't understand why this is a bug, or confusing. If you hit first, you hit first. If an enemy hits first, it hits first. That's the entire game in a nutshell...
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Re: Bug reports (Spoilers ahoy!)

Postby srid on Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:45 am

dislekcia wrote:I really don't understand why this is a bug, or confusing. If you hit first, you hit first. If an enemy hits first, it hits first. That's the entire game in a nutshell...


You are right about that, but let me explain why it can be confusing.

The player or the enemy hitting first has one main consequence on an battle round outcome, which can be stated like this: "If the one attacking first kills the other with his attack, the other will not perform his own attack."

Since the player death means the end of the run, the fact that in that case he won't perform his attack is not very relevant,
so it can be rephrased as this: 'If the player attacks first, and kills the enemy with his main attack, then the enemy will not attack the player (no damage and no debuff)"

Since this is the main reason why people use first strike in the first place (and most notably the main use for Gettindare), I argue that it is understandable to end up assimilating the effect of first strike with this instead of "the player's attack happens first".

But my main point here is that they would not do this assimilation if they were other significant cases were the distinction is important. Yet, as far as I know the Curse + Burn Stack + First Strike interaction (which I hope you will agree is a corner case) is the only other case where the attack order has an impact on the fight other than the main effect "killing an enemy with first strike prevents him from attacking you".

For instance, if my main understanding of First strike was: "If you hit first, you hit first. If an enemy hits first, it hits first.",
I would expect that a regular attack (i.e. enemy hits first) against an enemy with Weakening Strike would unfold like this:
- The enemy hits the player and weakens him.
- The player hits the enemy with -1 base damage.

And yet, this is not what happens since weakening only applies at the end of the fight.

So even where - with your definition of first strike - I would expect it to have an impact on the fight, it has none.

Perhaps I am missing other edge cases, but what got me confused, (and probably what got AvovA17 confused too, correct me if I'm wrong) is that the "Burn Stack + Curse" corner case is the only side-effect for First Strike that I know of besides the main one. And since this corner case doesn't happen that often, it can be quite easy to forget that there could be any, aside from the main one.

Of course, if you know other side-effects of first strike besides these two, please tell me.

So I'm not calling that a "bug" at all (and I never did, I said that call was not mine to make), but hopefully now you
understand why I see this as a "corner case" which can be hard to predict for the player..
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