IMAWAL

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Re: IMAWAL

Postby The Avatar on Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:25 pm

Especially in later or curse heavy dungeons.
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Re: IMAWAL

Postby Darvin on Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:07 pm

IMAWAL ... possibly not going to become a top-tier glyph anytime soon

Not asking for it to become top tier, just respectable and useful.

It's conversion fodder way too often in its current state. Unless I'm an Earthmother follower or I'm in a rare scenario where popcorn harvest is not feasible, using it once or twice before conversion is its best case scenario. That is a huge problem. Certainly other glyphs (CYDSTEPP) have issues with being "use once then toss", but they also have moments where they really shine while IMAWAL does not.

I consider WONAFYT the baseline minimum for glyph utility and IMAWAL falls well short of it. WONAFYT unclogs hallways, gives you a total of 10-15 extra XP in the average case, and that XP can be tactically harvested at opportune times, and it always spawns near the dungeon entrance so you're most likely to find it when it's actually useful. IMAWAL clogs hallways, gives you a total of 10-15 extra XP in the average case (used two or three times), but that XP cannot be saved for later, and it might spawn in an inopportune location and not even be worth using by the time you find it, and it prevents you from clearing curses or drinking blood pools.

Do I even need to make a stronger case than that?
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Re: IMAWAL

Postby Lujo on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:05 pm

To put it short it overlaps with two other glyphs for XP boosting, and the other two glyphs have beneficial effects in addition to the XP boost, while IMAWAL has a penalty.

However, all of this might have a bit to do with slow giving +1 XP which enchroached on the original IMAWAL buff (on transition to beta) which made it the XP glyph.
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Re: IMAWAL

Postby The Avatar on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:33 pm

Yeah. I will take ANY glyph over it.
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Re: IMAWAL

Postby Nandrew on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:10 am

Darvin wrote:
IMAWAL ... possibly not going to become a top-tier glyph anytime soon
Certainly other glyphs (CYDSTEPP) have issues with being "use once then toss", but they also have moments where they really shine while IMAWAL does not.

I consider WONAFYT the baseline minimum for glyph utility and IMAWAL falls well short of it. WONAFYT unclogs hallways, gives you a total of 10-15 extra XP in the average case, and that XP can be tactically harvested at opportune times, and it always spawns near the dungeon entrance so you're most likely to find it when it's actually useful. IMAWAL clogs hallways, gives you a total of 10-15 extra XP in the average case (used two or three times), but that XP cannot be saved for later, and it might spawn in an inopportune location and not even be worth using by the time you find it, and it prevents you from clearing curses or drinking blood pools.

Do I even need to make a stronger case than that?


Righto.

First of all, I don't have *too* much of an issue with the "use-and-toss" philosophy in general. This is why response has been slow on issues such as CYDSTEPP. As far as I'm concerned, an item only fails if it reliably hits conversion fodder status before it ever sees *ANY* use (with the exception, of course, being any intended fodder item). I feel that there are simply too many competitors around for inventory slots nowadays for us to mourn the swift passage of just one glyph.

I understand that glyphs are additionally connected to other gameplay aspects such as the gods, but most of the ones to urgently scum for by now are provided at worship, and even in one case through a boon.

Maybe there's a few kingpin glyphs in general that players want. And the biggest baddest kingpin of all -- fireball -- is as heavily overloaded as it is because it's a guaranteed one. And unlike the IMAWAL incarnation of a few versions past, we no longer have a problem with the glyph cannibalising the usefulness of any others. It operates quite elegantly in tandem with WONAFYT or WEYTWUT, is a really decent partner to PISORF, has its clog considerations cancelled completely* by ENDISWAL and doesn't interfere with any other glyph's game plan.

Labyrinth-style maps are a shortcoming and I would not claim that petrification is the most appropriate glyph to find there. But I also assume responsible players to have their escape routes lined up well in advance. I would not buff it based on one map type when so many other encounters are way more open-plot.

There are two typical sweet spots for IMAWAL use right now: character level 3 (just after you've discarded WONAFYT but before your inventory gets too choked up, presuming you wall a lvl1 and want to make an attack against a lvl4) and pre-boss buildup, during which you'd be expected to assess the strength of the level's generals, maybe killing one when it's easily achievable and petrifying the others for the XP boost. They're doing literally nothing else besides and unless you're already very powerful (or maybe an Assassin) you won't really be looking to harvest these creatures in any other way. Nobody mourns blood pool or curse remove losses from a lvl9 Ice Troll, and because petrify is a pre-cast you can actually risk MR penalties too.

It may be reassuring, however, to understand that the curse clearance will no longer be a problem with the next update. Petrification now affords a curse clearance bonus as if the enemy had been killed naturally -- moreover, the enemy's own Cursed status has no effect, meaning that you'll have several niche opportunities where Petrification is *more* effective as a curse buster than any conventional techniques.

Exercise this responsibly and your only losses will be bloodpools (which I don't like as an argument anyway, since an overwhelming majority of characters should never need to drink blood) and some mobility. Your gains will be an XP bonus which by now stacks elegantly with others, as well as a very easy way to relieve the game's most dreaded debuff by harvesting literally any enemy -- including ones that aren't usually eligible as consumable popcorn.

This, and the change-I'm-not-yet-sure-we're-putting-in, may not be the flashiest buffs the glyph could enjoy, but they're quite fair and it will be up to the player to work to the glyph's strengths beyond that.

*alliteration ftw
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Re: IMAWAL

Postby Nandrew on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:14 am

I also understand that IMAWAL doesn't work staggeringly well in tandem with Slayer Wand.

This makes me more concerned about Slayer Wand than IMAWAL, though. Too many players seem to have this as their invariable goto for every situation. Me no likey.
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Re: IMAWAL

Postby Nandrew on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:35 am

And because I don't wanna let any point slip by in the least: gods who are unimpressively impacted by a petrification include GG (very marginal piety loss, and easy enough to avoid conflict with Absolution targets), and Jehora (A single piety roll).

Gods who need to consider a SERIOUS worship impact include Taurog (uh, he doesn't care much for spellcasting anyway, guys ;) ), followed by Tikki Tooki and Dracul (which is still no excuse for not finding a sweet level 9 before glyph conversion).

Earthmother loves IMAWAL, naturally*. And it can't displease Binlor either, because more walls are just fodder and he's not a very XP-enriched god on his own. A spell is a spell is a spell, meaning Mystera gives it the thumbs-up.

Pactmaker shrugs, for the most part. Maybe you're building up resistances.

I'd actually rate the gods with IMAWAL like so:

2 directly synergise.
1 enjoys minor benefits.
3 see little impact, reduced to none with a bit of responsible play.
2 make it more difficult.
1 makes it nearly impossible to use (along with most other glyphs)

I find this an acceptable god/glyph mix, personally. I think the biggest stink here is that the deities which this glyph happens NOT to work with particularly well are just the current crowd favourites. I'm looking at you, Dracul/Tikki. If enough people are playing with these guys religiously (teehee), then of course IMAWAL is going to be viewed poorly.

*heh, pun
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Re: IMAWAL

Postby TigerKnee on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:46 am

Nandrew wrote:This makes me more concerned about Slayer Wand than IMAWAL, though. Too many players seem to have this as their invariable goto for every situation. Me no likey.


Bring back that Animated Armour bug from a version ago

(I kid. Maybe)
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Re: IMAWAL

Postby Darvin on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:22 pm

As far as I'm concerned, an item only fails if it reliably hits conversion fodder status before it ever sees *ANY* use (with the exception, of course, being any intended fodder item)

While I'm fine with "use and toss" with regards to items, where you get a choice of about a dozen shops to pick and choose what you buy, I'm more hesitant as applied to glyphs. There is a much smaller range of glyph selection in any scenario, and it really impacts your long-term options. The glyph should at very least have some scenarios where it gets to shine.


I feel that there are simply too many competitors around for inventory slots nowadays for us to mourn the swift passage of just one glyph.

While I totally agree with this (certainly not enough room in your inventory for everything), I do have a problem when it's the same glyph that takes the fall every time regardless of the situation.


And unlike the IMAWAL incarnation of a few versions past, we no longer have a problem with the glyph cannibalising the usefulness of any others. It operates quite elegantly in tandem with WONAFYT or WEYTWUT

Not really. The true loss wasn't the 1 bonus XP from the "slowed" status, but rather the ability to harvest it at the time of your choosing. On its own 1 XP is unlikely to mean anything in the long-run, but at the right place and time it might allow you to hit a threshold exactly when you need to. The change to IMAWAL has not solved this problem, and I am still loath to stone a slowed low-level monster.


is a really decent partner to PISORF

Not really; WEYTWUT works much better unless the target you're butting around has some serious magic resist. The amount of exploration you need to do to set up a PISORF chain is unrealistic in most cases, and being able to just move the monster to an already-explored section of the dungeon is the most ideal way to go about it. Creating a wall behind him sounds nice in theory, but means you actually need to explore behind him. If you're going to be expending tiles exploring anyways, may as well just shove him with PISORF into a better position.

I've considered this combo many times before, but it has never once come up in practice.


has its clog considerations cancelled completely* by ENDISWAL and doesn't interfere with any other glyph's game plan.

ENDISWAL only has about a 1/3 chance of actually spawning in, and even then you only have about a 50% chance of finding it in early exploration. Having ENDISWAL to carve your way around obstacles is always a major bonus, but not one that you can count on having.


Labyrinth-style maps are a shortcoming and I would not claim that petrification is the most appropriate glyph to find there. But I also assume responsible players to have their escape routes lined up well in advance. I would not buff it based on one map type when so many other encounters are way more open-plot.

No, but it's so bad in these instances that I'd actually say you should take it out of rotation on such maps. Earthmother followers could still gain it from joining her, but otherwise it won't appear randomly.


(which I don't like as an argument anyway, since an overwhelming majority of characters should never need to drink blood)

No, but the overwhelming majority of characters want to keep their options open on the off chance they find Dracul as their third altar. I rarely use plantation until all altars are accounted for, since the opportunity cost as it relates to Dracul is pretty substantial. Whether you like it or not, Dracul is the best late-game deity in the game (Tikki Tooki not far behind) and just about everyone wants to keep their options open.
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Re: IMAWAL

Postby Bloggorus on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:26 pm

Whoaaaaa more into on IMAWAL than I've ever seen in one place.

I don't particularly like the idea of imawal being a purposefully 'low tier' glyph though. Given that glyphs roll randomly, IMAWAL turning up means something more flexible doesn't turn up. Radom junk in shops is fine, because the gold cost is always appropriately low for the item. Items and glyphs aren't in the same boat.

Maybe I might try it again, the last time I bothered with imawal was when the exp curve was curvier. If my maths are right, that should make imawal more effective than bonus exp for high level kills in most cases?
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