IMAWAL

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: IMAWAL

Postby Darvin on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:36 pm

IMAWAL multiplies bonus experience as well as the base experience of the monster, so when the bonus experience curve got nerfed the effect of IMAWAL was indirectly nerfed as well.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3132
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: IMAWAL

Postby fall_ark on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:42 pm

How can IMAWAL be "a really decent partner to PISORF" when all you can get out is 50% next exp gain and 1 time of 10% extra damage? o_O If it's a monster you get unlimited 50% damage, without losing the monster xp, without consuming walls, and without changing position. And if the monster behind it is high level as well then you can set up a chain kill because you were doing damage to both of them.
User avatar
fall_ark
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:06 pm

Re: IMAWAL

Postby gjaustin on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:51 pm

Nandrew wrote:It may be reassuring, however, to understand that the curse clearance will no longer be a problem with the next update. Petrification now affords a curse clearance bonus as if the enemy had been killed naturally -- moreover, the enemy's own Cursed status has no effect, meaning that you'll have several niche opportunities where Petrification is *more* effective as a curse buster than any conventional techniques.


Aww, I almost suggested this. If I had, I could take credit for it :)
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: IMAWAL

Postby Zalminen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:23 pm

Nandrew wrote:pre-boss buildup, during which you'd be expected to assess the strength of the level's generals, maybe killing one when it's easily achievable and petrifying the others for the XP boost. They're doing literally nothing else besides and unless you're already very powerful (or maybe an Assassin) you won't really be looking to harvest these creatures in any other way.

Funny, I realized I've never even considered using IMAWAL like this. I've only used it against level 1 enemies as using it against anything bigger means more 'directly' lost XP and using it against the really big guys means losing Unstoppable.
Yeah, getting Unstoppable isn't often possible in any case but I realize it's become something of a mental rule for me to use IMAWAL against level 1s when possible and convert as soon as I need the space.
Zalminen
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:14 pm

Re: IMAWAL

Postby Sidestepper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:13 pm

It was the change in the xp formula that killed IMAWAL for me. On Normal and Hard, you could reliably squeeze 20-30 extra xp out of IMAWAL (although it always sucked in Vicious). It was actually one of my favorite glyphs. I still used it even after the changes to slow made it less competitive. But once the bonus formula changed from stacking to linear, IMAWAL lost its shine.
Sidestepper
 
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:36 am

Re: IMAWAL

Postby Lujo on Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:36 am

Reading Nandrew's response felt really good and also educational. As long as I understand the planned / unplanned parts of features, I'm a happy camper. Also, I don't mind having 0 gold costing conversion fodder, and am a big inventory space nitpicker, so the idea of single/precise use glyphs (and items, I love Troll Heart) it not so mortifying to me.

My issue was that there was design space (or rather frature space?) which wasn' seemingly filled with anything, while IMAWAL had overlap - but since it seems to be accupying a niche of it's own (CP is part of everything), It's all fine with me. Nice about the curse removal, that was a big factor for me ^^
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2833
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: IMAWAL

Postby Darvin on Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:20 pm

Also, I don't mind having 0 gold costing conversion fodder, and am a big inventory space nitpicker, so the idea of single/precise use glyphs (and items, I love Troll Heart) it not so mortifying to me.

I disagree with this. Every glyph that spawns in grants that 100 CP, so this is just something I consider collective to my glyph strategy; if I find glyphs that complement my strategy well I'll probably go light on CP and have more versatility, and if I find glyphs that don't work well for my approach I'll be CP heavy with little versatility. Taken to its extreme, this logic could justify a blank glyph that does nothing except offer 100 CP when converted.

Each glyph should offer a fair chance for something that may be useful to my strategy. There are some strategies where I'll just toss BLUDTUPOWA on the spot and others where I'll gleefully relish the find; that's fine. However, IMAWAL is always a "meh" find at its very best and consigned to early or immediate conversion.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3132
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: IMAWAL

Postby Nandrew on Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:25 am

Perhaps the "PISORF" statement was rather poorly considered, I think I was musing about it with regards to one or two other changes we were thinking of implementing, rather than how the glyph exists now.

The "timing management" aspect of these arguments still puts me off somewhat. Yes, after you petrify an enemy you're forced to resolve the XP bonus on the spot. Why are you not then waiting until you need the XP boost before picking up IMAWAL? I *never* put the glyph into inventory until I actually know that I'm going to invoke the first petrification. A little bit of care needs to be taken to ensure that you precast properly to avoid wasting mid-battle mana resources, but otherwise? Meh.

Zalminen wrote:Funny, I realized I've never even considered using IMAWAL like this. I've only used it against level 1 enemies as using it against anything bigger means more 'directly' lost XP and using it against the really big guys means losing Unstoppable.
Yeah, getting Unstoppable isn't often possible in any case but I realize it's become something of a mental rule for me to use IMAWAL against level 1s when possible and convert as soon as I need the space.


I dunno how many players actually used this idea before the Thief Silver challenge came about to point it out (or even if they use it now), but the loss of Unstoppable probably throws people off a little and shuts them off from the concept before they actually explore it.
User avatar
Nandrew
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:59 pm

Re: IMAWAL

Postby Blovski on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:08 pm

Each glyph should offer a fair chance for something that may be useful to my strategy. There are some strategies where I'll just toss BLUDTUPOWA on the spot and others where I'll gleefully relish the find; that's fine. However, IMAWAL is always a "meh" find at its very best and consigned to early or immediate conversion.


There are a few maps it's phenomenal on - Hexx Ruins in particular (did a wizard purist run of that yesterday, got a few boosts on 3/4 level higher enemies... also as a frequent GG user, it's fantastic for him... higher-level bonus kills and it's pretty tricky to level properly with just GG), but also Ick to some extent. Anything with AAs as well really.
Blovski
 
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: IMAWAL

Postby Darvin on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:44 pm

Yes, after you petrify an enemy you're forced to resolve the XP bonus on the spot. Why are you not then waiting until you need the XP boost before picking up IMAWAL?

One is a flat XP boost, and one is an XP multiplier; their function is actually very different in practice.

The flat XP boost is primarily used on low-level monsters that you can 1-hit, allowing you to "ding" mid-combat against a stronger foe. Because you're in combat, expending mana or health on other things is untenable, so you'll be attacking level 1-3 monsters. The flat bonus works well since the mana cost can be expended well ahead of time and the monster left in a convenient place for harvest. As a multiplier, the actual gains from IMAWAL are marginal (if not net zero) when used against such low-level monsters.

The purpose of IMAWAL is the multiply the value of high-gain targets which award large amounts of bonus XP. In other words, you're probably taking down a monster several levels higher than you and will be expending all of your renewable resources. The point isn't to "ding" from this kill (it's highly unlikely you're simultaneously fighting other monsters, so the ding would just go to waste), but rather just to accrue a large number of XP for the long run.


There are a few maps it's phenomenal on - Hexx Ruins in particular

I mentioned this in my original post. Any scenario with plentiful no-XP enemies is going to be a major boon for IMAWAL, but these are the exception and not the rule.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3132
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Previous

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests