Some feedback from fairly noobish player

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Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby Leotamer on Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:04 am

First off, I really like this game from alpha to beta, and like where yall are going, a bit of a mix between rogue like horror, and an enjoyable past-time. Well, her is where I start some complaining, just remember I will like the game anyways, but these are some of my thoughts.

The paladin has lost some of his charm : This is due to two what at first seems like a simple change. Holy work ( Healed for
killing undead) was changed so that you can't be punished by Gods, boons cost less, but you can't change religions. The Paladin was my favorite class, but I can no long seem to in it to play him. Here is the 2 reasons I find this bad:
1- A paladins worst foe in my opinion is Wraiths, as mana burn can ruin a Paladin, which the old holy work you was atleast healed by them.
2- The fact that while it seems like he could work really good with Ironsheild and Taurog( Not good with Binlor, but the later is my favortive of the gods) But Helpmeh something that he needs to kill higher level monsters isn't as good when you need to keep destorying walls for Binlor, and have low with Taurog.

Be careful the number of maps that require you to be hybrid: Ok, fine have your rock garden (It makes sense their), but it gets to point somethings are plain unusable

Lastly, I would like to a new class that works like old Transmuter, the new one isn't bad, but the old one was my second favorite class.

Also, do remember, that this are just some of my thoughts. I do not claim to be good, but I do claim the game is.
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Re: Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby Darvin on Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:38 am

1- A paladins worst foe in my opinion is Wraiths, as mana burn can ruin a Paladin, which the old holy work you was atleast healed by them.

Every class has nasty monsters that really hammer them. Rogues againt Goblins, Monks against Bandits, Wizards against Meat Men... the list goes on, and of course can be variable based on the spells you find.

Personally, I wouldn't complain too much about wraiths. The BURNDAYRAZ glyph has been improved substantially since the alpha, so low-HP monsters without magic resist are some of the easiest ones to take down these days. Yeah, you don't want to melee with them, but there are worse monsters out there (naga, anyone?)


2- The fact that while it seems like he could work really good with Ironsheild and Taurog

Paladin of Binlor isn't a bad combo at all. Not optimal (Tikki Tooki, Glowing Guardian, and Dracul are your go-to religions) but certainly doable. Paladin of Taurog isn't bad at all for resist stacking, and if you have a way to make due with lower max mana he's perfectly viable.


Ok, fine have your rock garden (It makes sense their)

Actually, if you've fully-upgraded your blacksmith then Rock Garden can easily be beaten as a physical-specialist character. You are correct that there's a lot more incentive to have magic damage at your disposal than back in the alpha, and rarely want to convert BURNDAYRAZ these days, but physical specialists remain powerful character builds.


Lastly, I would like to a new class that works like old Transmuter, the new one isn't bad, but the old one was my second favorite class.

We did; the devs experimented with different approaches and he was either brutally overpowered or comically underpowered. Eventually we settled on the one we have now, it's roughly balanced and does something interesting, so we've stuck with it.

The problem with an ENDISWAL-based class feature is that the number of walls in the dungeon can vary dramatically. This means that in some dungeons the Transmuter basically never runs out of walls to break, and in others he'll run out way too early. This made him impossible to balance; he was either ludicrously overpowered in some dungeons, or basically powerless in others.
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Re: Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby Nandrew on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:29 am

What Darvin said about the Transmuter: right now, we seem to have something that's reasonably worky and rewardsome and tweaking that out will be dangerous, unfortunately. :( The amount of time we have to go back and rework these bonus characters again is regrettably low.

The Paladin's new religion trait is slightly awkward in some respects, but on the flipside we really like the avenues that it has opened for different playstyles and I think he's still considered a pretty strong character overall (especially after HALPMEH was rebuffed slightly).

It's cool stuff to consider, though. Not often enough that we get the "fairly noobish player" views directly, particularly if there's a concern that too many maps are hybrid-dependent. :)
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Re: Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:35 pm

Darvin wrote:
2- The fact that while it seems like he could work really good with Ironsheild and Taurog

Paladin of Binlor isn't a bad combo at all. Not optimal (Tikki Tooki, Glowing Guardian, and Dracul are your go-to religions) but certainly doable. Paladin of Taurog isn't bad at all for resist stacking, and if you have a way to make due with lower max mana he's perfectly viable.


Yep, especially if you manage to find Pactmaker.
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Re: Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby Darvin on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:48 pm

Pactmaker and Taurog are BFF's...
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Re: Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby Nandrew on Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:37 pm

They used to be one god, called Pacrog.

Then they collided with another god called Taumaker.

Now they are two different gods.
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Re: Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby Fran on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:26 pm

What about packmaster?
We haven't heard from him a while now...
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Re: Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby Leotamer on Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:24 am

Ok, let me go back a little and let me explain myself a bit more on the paladin. In the alpha, my best trees was Warrior and Priest, so it was only natural that I liked the Paladin a lot. He was a good because while he didn't do as much damage as the warrior tree, he excel in places they did. A big part of this was his two heals, allowing you a good balance of regen though dungeon, from undead, and Helpmeh. But, not many gds support this old playstyle.

EM and JJ are decent for this, but have gimmicks make them sutitonal. Dracul and Taurog drain health and mana, to things that the "tank paladin" needs. Tikki hates for you to be hit, that doesn't work so well resist stacking. That leaves Binlor, GG, and Annur. Annur being mostly for mages, and GG is someone you would already get.

Also, finally completed Rock Garden with a Warlord. But I don't think I am going to get my Witch upgraded anytime soon.

Edit- And now that I think about it, the new holy works would work better with Crusader, as he works with must of the gd.
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Re: Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby Darvin on Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:08 am

A big part of this was his two heals, allowing you a good balance of regen though dungeon, from undead, and Helpmeh. But, not many gds support this old playstyle.

Taurog, Dracul, Pactmaker (Body Pact), and Glowing Guardian all work very well for this approach. They all have their drawbacks in various degrees, but applied right they work great. Tikki Tooki is awe-inspiring for these kinds of characters, but a little tricky to work with.

This strategy in general has been weakened over the course of the beta because it was simply way too strong, so I can understand coming from the alpha and feeling it's much weaker. Keep in mind there are many new tools for you to use, and many of the gods are much more flexible than they first appear.

EM and JJ are decent for this, but have gimmicks make them situational

EM and JJ are both consolation prizes for a Paladin. No arguments here.

Dracul and Taurog drain health and mana, to things that the "tank paladin" needs

They're hard to use, but Dracul and Taurog work extremely well with the Paladin. I wouldn't worry too much about losing max life or max mana; the most important things for paladins are their damage resistance and attack damage. I'd say you're writing off his best combos.

Tikki hates for you to be hit, that doesn't work so well resist stacking

What I said for Dracul and Taurog goes double for Tikki Tooki. He's very hard to work with, but the reward for a resist-stacker like the Paladin is astronomical, and unlike other classes you can ignore his complaining if you're not actively saving up for a boon.

Remember, unlike the alpha it's entirely possible to live with a god who disapproves of your strategy. Most of the piety penalties are much lower and more easily avoided, plus you have the option of converting religions after purchasing your boons. Paladins don't even have to keep their heads above water once they've got the boons they want. You have way more flexibility than you think.
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Re: Some feedback from fairly noobish player

Postby Leotamer on Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:55 am

Well, I guess I just got to say good bye to my Immortal Elven Paladin. But I guess when start playing lots of the warrior tree, and rogue tree in beta, and alpha paladin. I will try to play some more Paladin.

Also, just food for thought, about the old transmuter, am not sure how possible this would be( I don't code), but maybe a whole dungeon would be X ammount of health, and each brick would a peice of that. One last thing, could you explain why he has Lemmisa? I normally convert on sight if I see it or use it once or twice and then convert it when I find it normal.

EDIT- Really, try Elven Paladin in aphla, while not immortal, if you get going, you can crush almost anything. But, I wouldn't say it would be any worst then the warlord or berserker.
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