Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby The Avatar on Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:08 pm

I like fighter in Vicious. It's nice to have a tabula rasa class that can get 4-5 dings vs a boss.

As for assassin, his brokenness was coming from crazy spell casting Assassin that abuse swift hands. So Swift Hands or spell casting with him needed a nerf, not his physical ability.
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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:43 pm

The Avatar wrote:I like fighter in Vicious. It's nice to have a tabula rasa class that can get 4-5 dings vs a boss.


I'm a fan as well.
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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby FDru on Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:03 pm

Sidestepper wrote:You need to use poison aggressively to reach high levels with as few kills as possible so that you can megaspike the boss. If you are it trashing APHEELSIK at level 2 you are definitely doing something wrong. I just did a Purist/Hoarder/Miser/Faithless Assassin run of Den of Danger, so he's certainly still viable.


I find it to be more hassle than it's worth when I could be using that mana to bust down walls for easy first strikes. Obviously that doesn't work everywhere, but it's a more reliable strategy than poisoning an enemy that's going to take 20 hits to kill and praying I don't get dead-ended by a bunch of enemies I can't afford to attack (which is basically anything since that's how poison works).
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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:35 pm

For various reasons I don't mind the fighter at all (sinergy with TT, EM and Wonnafyt, DING! machine - great manamonster of all things, the third ability actually saves me exploration by telling me where the popcorn is, a free free hit while lvling on top of my chepshot prep collection, synergy with patches), I can't honestly tell who the worst class IS.

I rarely use the Thief once I unlock the Tinker. But on the other hand, the way he was before - people were clearing much harder Vicious dungeons with him. Taking him off the map for a while yielded other strats and stuff, and potions were a lot stronger back then. Still, I somehow feel that if you upped the potion functionality perks he has, hed turn into a complete monster again (the current Alch scroll is silly enough as it is). If he were a higher tier class I wouldn't mind, but having such a strong early class was what rubbed me the wrong way.

The real deal was that only He, the Priest, Warlord and Bloodmage are potion hogs these days. The last two are tier3 classes, and the priest is a bit narrow. So if you discover Triling thieves early enough, and stick with potion spikes, the first class you unlock - you stick with it.

If the "gold on use" and the CYDSTEPP nerf have curbed the overall power of potions, it might be viable to boost him back up again, not necessarily to where he was, but maybe even there. Anyone have decent assesments on this? The surge of "game got too hard" comments from a while back might have something to with all the nerfs to potions, and I distinctly remember overusing the Thief so much that I wanted him out of the picture for a while. (The Default VICIOUS clearers used to be Monk & Paladin, and Warlord & Rogue... and the Thief. And i never used the CYDSTEPPERS. As far as I remember the thief curiously wasn't among the übercheeze mechanic crowd, but could match them for results).





In case anyone's wondering the major overused/overpowered spike/strat nerfs sort of went like this (and so did my whining about them): Thieves everywhere, CYDSTEPP Rogues everywhere, %res stacking silently out of controll because of Thieves and Rogues everywhere, (Warlords became the go to cheeze for the CYDSTEPP crowd, and never really got nerfed as far as I know), Monk discovered as silly, GG everywhere, Paladins everywhere... then I took a sabatical, and now where at... I can't tell. There was a CP Orcs everywhere phase as well. I'd love to see a more coherent and accurate summary of all the "everywheres", might be hilarious.
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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby The Avatar on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:54 pm

The warlord was indirectly nerved. The reason he was so broken was the old Mystic Balance (incarnation 2 not 1) and the old crystal ball.

In fact, IMO, the new Crystal Ball is an absolute piece of junk.

On the topic of the thief: I think it'd be okay to make it 40 and 30% for the potions instead of the current 40 and 20%.
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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:59 pm

The Avatar wrote:The warlord was indirectly nerved. The reason he was so broken was the old Mystic Balance (incarnation 2 not 1) and the old crystal ball.


Warlord was and possibly still is quite a bit over the curve, especially in conjunction with JJ (unless JJ was significantly nerfed), and migh be rather too good with the current Refreshment and current Clearance, especially as you can effortlessly chain them. The fact that he wasnt recognized as the monster he is is because the old Cydstepp rogue was so good (and familiar to some people) that when he got the shaft people started using Warlord everywhere. Heck, people were using the Drac -hp boon to STILL get their beloved cydstepp rogue during the old "exhaustion" Cydstepp variant.

(A GG Enlightment Elf into EM if possible makes for a really really silly Warlord IMO. A Mysterea into GG Elf makes for an even sillier Warlord, possibly).

TBH the only reason I never originally got into the whole CYDSTEPP thing was because I was prone to missclicks, and %res stacking Monks to the max meant I could mindleslly right click my way through anything and not die on accident / browser induced missclick. The strats were about as powerfull on non-endurance runs.

The Thief COULD use a buff of somekind though. Or rather, I can't see why not anymore. And the crystall ball a tweak to either the gold per use cost, or CP value (franly the CP value is what irritates me, the effect is actualy still good). The Fire Hart also has such lackluster CP I never ever pick it up, and I know it's not really bad.
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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby The Avatar on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:09 pm

I say less gold per use.

JJ isn't too good for Warlords anymore. The only reason he was so great originally is you could easily get enough for 3 mana boosts which were 4 mana each. That gave your gnome 25 mana (10 mana per potion) and 7 or so potions.
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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby harfatum on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:11 pm

Not to take this too far off topic, but does the Thief have anything interesting about him? As in, do any of his abilities make him make decisions any differently from a Guard that just happens to be stronger? I suppose he can one-shot enemies slightly earlier, but otherwise...
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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:18 pm

Well, he used to be a potion god, so much so that calling thim "The Alchemist" or "The Brewmaster" would've fitted him more than calling him a thief.

This gave him distinct sinergy with the Trisword Halflings, and gave him simultaneous phys and magic spike capabilities that couldn't really be compared with anything so he outshone all other hybrids so much that he could compete with cheeze. Technicaly, he turned every HP and MP potion (a small slot, cheap, easily accessible item) into a GG healing boon, and 2 races in the game could convert for them, so thecnicaly he could turn CP into boons, and since he has more gold and shops he also has more CP, and you can sort of see where this goes.

Also, since everyone was focusing on CYDSTEPP the actual state of the average ammount of CP per level was getting out of hand as there was too little feedback, so more shops and gold could turn into quite a bit of CP (and the Sensation stone + conversion scroll combo added even more).

So the nerf to his potion godhood hit him directly and took him off the radar, to entice poeple to try less efficent stuff out, but then his whole potion spike / CP focus got hit by many indirect nerfs.
Last edited by Lujo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is assassin the worst class in the game now?

Postby Darvin on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:33 pm

If the "gold on use" and the CYDSTEPP nerf have curbed the overall power of potions, it might be viable to boost him back up again, not necessarily to where he was, but maybe even there. Anyone have decent assesments on this?
...
And i never used the CYDSTEPPERS. As far as I remember the thief curiously wasn't among the übercheeze mechanic crowd, but could match them for results).

I'd say Thief probably could use some buffing now. Not to where he used to be, but certainly a notch higher. At very minimum an extra booster of each type is nothing to sneeze at.

The first successful Naga City run posted on the forum was a resist-stacking Thief. Of course, that was back in the days of the 33% dragonshield. Thief was always my fav T1 class before the potion nerf and fighter buff, which made the Ding! monster delightful to play with.
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