The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

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The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby The Avatar on Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:18 pm

Okay, I found something that I think is a problem (or maybe some people like it): The Avatar and Matron of Flames are weak compared to their guards/helpers/summoners. I much prefer some annoying and resource wasting helpers, but I think the final boss of the area should far surpass his guards. Heck, these days I'm Whupazing the Firstborn not the Matron. All I need for the Matron is three or so tiles with my berserker. Same with The Avatar. The last demonlord you fight will usually be the hardest for your character, and on top of that he'll have 5 DP. Also, DL is IMO the hardest dungeon right now (excluding VGT and maybe VHoS or Naga City) 5 Demonlords with 444 hp each, versatile abilities (and at least one is bad in all circumstances) and 10 DPs on top of that. That sounds like a final boss. Then the real boss has under 1000. WHAT?! The Demonlords and The Firstborn are too hard (especially the Demonlords) while the Matron and The Avatar are a joke.
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Re: The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby Darvin on Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:35 pm

Agreed; I feel these should be the two most powerful enemies in the game by a considerable margin.
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Re: The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby dislekcia on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:18 pm

There's actually a balance need for bosses that AREN'T insanely stronger than their minions, especially in the beginning of the game, but this is still a theory that I'm working on right now.
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Re: The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby Darvin on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:21 pm

dislekcia wrote:There's actually a balance need for bosses that AREN'T insanely stronger than their minions, especially in the beginning of the game, but this is still a theory that I'm working on right now.

I totally agree with this, but Matron and Avatar are the wrong guys to apply this principle to. They're respectively the Last True Dragon and the Harbringer of the Apocalypse. Both are single-form bosses, and in my mind given their lore they should be the two most powerful enemies in the game.
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Re: The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:25 pm

Darvin wrote:
dislekcia wrote:There's actually a balance need for bosses that AREN'T insanely stronger than their minions, especially in the beginning of the game, but this is still a theory that I'm working on right now.

I totally agree with this, but Matron and Avatar are the wrong guys to apply this principle to. They're respectively the Last True Dragon and the Harbringer of the Apocalypse. Both are single-form bosses, and in my mind given their lore they should be the two most powerful enemies in the game.


Lore should never ever carry over to the mechanics at the expense of the mechanics. Flavour - fine, but lore can be interpreted subjectively to easily. There'll be more people playing the game (charming as it is) for the addictive mechanics and cooky flavour than the lore, i believe.
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Re: The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby The Avatar on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:26 pm

I could not have said that better myself, Darvin.

Lujo, is there any reason The Matron or The Avatar should be easy bosses? I like it mechanically when the final boss is the hardest.
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Re: The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:41 pm

Yes actually, well, not necessarily both of them, but it's a different kind of challenge, and limiting VICIOUS dungeons to only the "finall boss the hardest" limits the ammount of possible challenges. And Dislekcia obviously has a theory we might sometime hear about which could be anything.
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Re: The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby The Avatar on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:48 pm

We're not limiting Vicious. We're only taking in 2 of the 6 Vicious. I like how Naga City has a bunch of "mini bosses" before the Sun-Touched Sissy. I like how Namtar himself is more like a sequence of semi-difficult bosses (like the Demonlords in DL except Nammy's weaker). I just want the two single form "ultimate" bosses to actually live up to being "ultimate" bosses.
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Re: The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:11 pm

Well from that perspective then yes, well, I'd prefer it if the first dragon boss was easier than the matron.

However I might've come up with why it might be prefferable for people to have difficult time getting to the boss rather than easy guards + hard boss.

Thing is, you find out that your approach fails quicker. If it took you half an hour to finish a level ragardless of how hard the "guards" were simply lvling up and stuff, then you'd have to work your way through something you've mastered to encounter something huge. This way around you see if you have the chops faster and can experiment with tactics with less grind.

If this doesnt' make sense - it's a theory, and I might be able to elaborate once I have time to think about it.

EDIT: or it's as simple as "easier guards" = "more blackspace for the boss", and blackspace is an awesome resource.
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Re: The Avatar and The Matron of Flames

Postby The Avatar on Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:11 am

Just because I'm saying easier guards doesn't mean pathetic guards. If you gave all 5 demonlords 333 hp it would be 1665 hp total which is still incredibly difficult when you top on 10 DPs and a whole lot of dangerous effects. That doesn't leave you with too much blackspace unless you're blowing potions, refreshments, etc.

If I remember correctly, the current Avatar has 750 or so hp. 750 + 2220 (Demonlords) = 2970

Let's say we decided to weaken the Demonlords to 222 hp each. That's 1110 hp, 10 DPs, and a whole lot of dangerous effects. 2970 - 1110 = 1860. What if that happened? That would still be a considerable challenge, more blackspace or not.
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