Should the player be able to die?

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Should the player be able to die?

Postby Roonespism on Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:25 am

There is never a tactical benefit to death (that is, when you don't have death protection) so nobody would willingly click on an enemy with a big red DEATH combat prediction. Even if your character is stuck and must kill themself to end the dungeon run, there's a surrender option in the main menu.

With this in mind, the fact that dying on an enemy is possible, let alone possible without any sort of 'Are you sure? This enemy will kill you.' is rather odd. You can already lose by messing something up and being forced to retire (or surrender) so all being able to die adds to the game is that the player sometimes experiences a glitch or misclick that removes any progress they made on the current dungeon run and 50 gold (more of an insult than any amount of real money, to be sure) for whatever item they brought in.
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Re: Should the player be able to die?

Postby Leotamer on Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:40 am

I aguee, their should be a "Are you sure" button. Also, thinking which, maybe if this was added Jehoya would give peity, and 5% chance to survive if you click yes, and maybe even remove peity if you say no. Just a thought.
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Re: Should the player be able to die?

Postby Lujo on Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:39 am

While even a notion of adding the button was often firmly dissmissed, it was always dismissed on "I see the game as X" grounds and it all came down to personal preference.

I've personaly always been for a "carebear" button, with the possiblity of switching it on and off. Many reasons for it.

1) There are/were chances to die to a misclick related to browsers. You could theoreticaly die without having made any rash/wrong decision. This was a major annoyance, infintely more so on endurance runs.

2) Being able to die to a misclick / misclaculation / combat prediction mech screwup adds a manual dexterity hazard to a game which is the opposite of a manual dexterity game. It's very annoying to turn based guys. Funny to hear this from a moba vet, I know, but if I wanted manual dexterity hazards I'd be playing mobas.

3) It affects the learning curve / affinity develompent allready. Two enirely different schools of thought developed around CYDSTEPP directly related to it. One school thinks of Death Protection as "Missclick protection" and prefers strats which invlove it because having a DP on at all times prevents deaths by missclicks. The other, which inludes myself, avoids CYDSTEPP like a plague because over-reliance on having a DP on at all times leads to more deaths by misclick in case you forget to use CYDSTEPP while spiking, or simply click with the mouse before you hit the CYDSTEPP hotkey (and this is also why I use the mouse to fireball stuff and avoid hotkeys in general).

4) Since you cant click on the monster to see the combat prediction at all times, it also creates times when you accidentally miscalculate.

On the other hand, frustration is a big part of wanting to get better at the game, but it's the only argument in favour of leaving it the way it is. I personaly think it's a sneaky skinnerbox gimmick which annoys me despite all the benefits, but I'm not a game disigner, so what the hell...

EDIT: Oh, and misclicks are basicaly the only balancing to the Warlord :P
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Re: Should the player be able to die?

Postby Leotamer on Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:09 am

How I see it is, the thing about Roguelikes is that unlike LoL, Minecraft, or most other games: Roguelike RPGS ( Platforms is a whole differant story), They make you feel like it is your fault that you lost, and this is what drives me. The fact that the game will keeps feeding you: "Hahahaha, you did X, Y, And X wrong, now you got to start all over again, hahahaaha". However, when you take misclicks, which isn't a play controlled element, that does take away from that.

But with my suggestion about Jehoya, that is like getting patchs and getting a bad teleport and losing because of it. you took a gamble, and failed.
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Re: Should the player be able to die?

Postby TigerKnee on Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:42 am

Personally? I believe the player should only die once he's been boxed into a corner somehow (such as not being smart with killing monsters in the Labyrinth dungeon or something like Naga City)

You already have "combat prediction", it's very hard for anyone to die if they're actually looking at said CP that says DEATH. It's dumb to die because you have the habit of double clicking things (the general method of interaction with most other games) and accidentally attacked that level 9 when you're trying to click on the altar next to it instead.

It's one thing if you're attacking it because you want to push your luck for dodge, but no one would attack it otherwise.

DD's inspiration, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, has already gone the path of making sure when you die, it's because of your OVERALL tactical/strategic mistakes and not "I hit the wrong button" things.

As an example, in that game, if you move while confused, you would move in a random direction. In a water-filled area, moving like that into deep water makes you instantly. This makes a certain area an absolute CHORE to play and now the default game behaviour is that if you are next to deep water, the game will ask whether you REALLY want to risk moving (which might potentially kill yourself).

It's still a bad idea to get confused near water because whatever confused you can wail on you while you're incapitated, but you aren't losing instantly for stupid reasons.

In chess terms, DD should give a confirmation if you're going into a "Check" situation. You only die if you enter "Checkmate."
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Re: Should the player be able to die?

Postby Nandrew on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:06 am

TigerKnee wrote:As an example, in that game, if you move while confused, you would move in a random direction. In a water-filled area, moving like that into deep water makes you instantly. This makes a certain area an absolute CHORE to play and now the default game behaviour is that if you are next to deep water, the game will ask whether you REALLY want to risk moving (which might potentially kill yourself).


Proud to say that I have yet to drown in a game of DCSS.

Though apparently they recently added a "scramble" roll as well, giving you a chance at survival if you're adjacent to shore.
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Re: Should the player be able to die?

Postby Leotamer on Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:23 am

This could also be an option, that is set on On" at the start, and you could disable. ( It would beat the purpose if you forget to set it back on), misclicks have cost me several Vhos runs and around 150 gold each of those runs.
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Re: Should the player be able to die?

Postby Nandrew on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:25 am

Click confirmation stuff is an improvement filed vaguely somewhere under "interface", so if we get that sorted out it'll probably be in this part of the general dev cycle.
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Re: Should the player be able to die?

Postby FDru on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:08 am

Yay.

The only times I die are by misclicks and browser lag. It's very frustrating. In all cases where it's possible to retreat through the exit, that's always the logical option if you can't win.
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Re: Should the player be able to die?

Postby berpdreyfuss on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:07 pm

I think dying because of playing too fast is part of the game, I can see that it's very frustrating if it happens because of a lag, but that didn't happen to me until now. But an option to set it on and off is okay anyway.
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